Husband as leader

[LightBound]

I wish my husband showed more leadership. It’s something I pray about.

In what ways do you wish he showed more leadership? This is what I’ve been trying to get those who are married to stipulate on here. Some practical applications. Do you want him to not be indecisive, such as saying “ok dear, whatever we do is fine with me”, thus leaving all the decision-making to you or are you talking about making sure the family prays or is firmer about Church attendance? Or does it involvement parenting? I think these threads draw so much drama because people aren’t being up front on what they think leadership or following means on a daily basis.

 

[ack]

It strikes me as putting the stoic and even keeled member of the family at the mercy of the more emotional one.

The implication here is that someone with a “stoic” personality is more likely to make good or equitable decisions.

But realize that emotions and intuitions play a much larger role in our decision-making than many of us are willing to admit. It is easy to delude oneself into believing that one’s decisions are based on logic, when in reality, they are based on emotions just as much as anyone else’s – just with the emotions manifesting themselves in less obvious ways.

 

[Xantippe]

It is easier at the beginning of a marriage to set up a parish than several years later. They should go somewhere they can plan on being for the long haul.

**You’re making this sound like a much bigger commitment than it actually is.

In our area, depending on family schedule, we routinely go to the college chaplaincy, the big inner city parish attached to a school, the vanilla suburban parish, the downtown Spanish Mass, and probably at least one more. And the funny thing is, we see a lot of the same people no matter where we go–other people are doing the same thing. We’ve got kids in CCD at one church and mainly go to Mass at another.

Part of our wanderings is because of schedule issues and part is due to kid illnesses. If we have a sick child, the well members of the family split up so that an adult can be with the sick child at home. So we’ll do a 10 AM at one parish and a 5 PM Mass at another parish. By the time the OP and his wife have a toddler, they’ll probably be doing the same thing. And they’ll be happy to find a Mass at an appropriate time for their needs, no matter how lackluster the liturgical experience is.

We’ve lived in three different metro areas (using the term metro very loosely in one case) since we got married and attended Mass at probably dozens of locations over the years. In our current location, we did 6+ years primarily at one parish before moving on because (as I mentioned) the new pastor was freaking out our kids (and he had some weird policy ideas–like if you didn’t attend Mass in the parish, you were supposed to bring a signed bulletin from the other parish for CCD–so annoying!). Things change. The OP’s wife’s home parish may get better and the OP’s parish may get worse or they may find something totally different. Or they may wind up moving to a completely different area. Again, things change.

No need to set things in cement that don’t need to be set in cement.
**

It strikes me as putting the stoic and even keeled member of the family at the mercy of the more emotional one.

No–not if everybody is allowed their quirks and their passions to the extent that it doesn’t do demonstrable harm to the family.

Even (or especially) stoic people have passions and obsessions.

Plus, (as in my cooking or extracurricular examples) you’re taking turns, which eliminates the possibility of the more emotional spouse tyrannizing.

 

[Xantippe]

The implication here is that someone with a “stoic” personality is more likely to make good or equitable decisions.

**That’s a good catch. “Stoic” doesn’t mean good decisions. Mr. Spock was not necessarily always a better decision-maker than Captain Kirk. **

But realize that emotions and intuitions play a much larger role in our decision-making than many of us are willing to admit. It is easy to delude oneself into believing that one’s decisions are based on logic, when in reality, they are based on emotions just as much as anyone else’s – just with the emotions manifesting themselves in less obvious ways.

Right.

Think about Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory. On the one hand, he prides himself on being very logical, but on the other hand, a lot of his decisions are driven by phobias and obsessions.

So, it’s right to be a bit wary of people that pride themselves too much on being “logical.”

Here’s an example from the internet:

ask.metafilter.com/256829/boyfriend-and-logic

“[My boyfriend of five months] values being logical above all other qualities, and he, naturally, thinks that he is always logical. This would be frustrating but okay, except that he also tells me jokingly that I am illogical very frequently. It stops feeling like it’s a joke after a while. I’ve talked to him about it a little and told him it hurts my feelings. He was immediately and sincereley apologetic and the jokes receded for a while. But then they started creeping back. I feel like he has a loop in his head that goes like this: “I am always logical, so any behavior I don’t understand is illogical. I don’t understand that behavior, therefore it is illogical.” I think I do a lot of things that he doesn’t understand.”

 

[underacloud]

I think the leadership issue is a red herring. At the moment it’s masking the fact that you both seem to resent each other quite a bit (that’s based on what you say here of course; we don’t know anything about your relationship that you didn’t post here ). It also sounds as if your wife is getting into a poisonous habit of manipulation because she doesn’t feel able to state her preferences clearly (or doesn’t feel that she will be really listened to if she does). That’s no good at all.

How about focusing on improving communication with your wife? It sounds as if you are scared of “giving” too much to her in case she takes too much, and as if she is giving into you but feels really resentful about it. You need to recover a sense of being a partnership, a team working together, rather than being in a constant stand-off.

I think there are a lot of “traditional” families, where the husband is the head, but in reality the wife knows how to get her way anyway.

It reminds me of My Big Fat Greek Wedding…

Toula Portokalos: Ma, Dad is so stubborn. What he says goes. “Ah, the man is the head of the house!”

Maria Portokalos: Let me tell you something, Toula. The man is the head, but the woman is the neck. And she can turn the head any way she wants.

The difference being in this case I think the OP recognises this and yes resents it.

I agree that focusing on better communication is the best approach. Don’t worry about who gets final say, but worry about the process of working together towards an agreement. If you can agree on things, there is no need for a final say anyway.

The OP’s wife, as an only child, will not be used to the sorts of compromises that siblings become accustomed to. But this doesn’t mean she should be excused from having to compromise. To be frank, I see marriage counselling in the future here…and perhaps sooner than later would be better.

 

[SWolf]

I think there are a lot of “traditional” families, where the husband is the head, but in reality the wife knows how to get her way anyway.

It reminds me of My Big Fat Greek Wedding…

The difference being in this case I think the OP recognises this and yes resents it.

I agree that focusing on better communication is the best approach. Don’t worry about who gets final say, but worry about the process of working together towards an agreement. If you can agree on things, there is no need for a final say anyway.

The OP’s wife, as an only child, will not be used to the sorts of compromises that siblings become accustomed to. But this doesn’t mean she should be excused from having to compromise. To be frank, I see marriage counselling in the future here…and perhaps sooner than later would be better.

Yup, it often doesn’t take much for a woman to change her husband’s mind, and that’s not a bad thing. Even St. Peter understood this dynamic.

(1)Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, (2) when they see the purity and reverence of your lives.

Charm goes a long ways.

 

[Lorelei12]

For example, my wife was an only child and her parents didn’t make her do chores, so she is not used to doing cooking or cleaning or housework and doesn’t do them habitually. As a result (for now) in addition to being the breadwinner of the family, I get the joy of doing all of these things too after spending all day at work. She knows this is wrong and occasionally will try to do chores but hasn’t made them a habit yet. I know it will be a process and that she will get better over time.

Is your wife having pregnancy complications? I know that in my first trimester I was just so tired and nauseous all the time. I still worked full time, but it was a real struggle. So while I certainly think she should take responsibility for 100% of what she can do, is it possible that what you think she can do and what she actually can do are different? If she feels generally okay though, there really is no reason you should have to do it all.

I think other posters are right that you are making the “husband as leader” thing into a big deal when the issues you are having aren’t really “leadership” issues. I would have a really hard time living with a husband who felt he should have the final say on anything and everything we didn’t disagree on. That’s not going to work out for either of you. She’s going to grow increasingly resentful and so are you, when she doesn’t want to defer to you on everything. Learning to work through things together is a process, and ideally both spouses will “give in” to one another often. You’ve set this up as a “my wife vs. me” issue, and you need to remember that you’re not separate; you’re one. When either one of you is unhappy or distressed, it affects both of you.

You scoffed at the idea that marriage involves a lot of sacrifice, and that you primarily should be concerned with your spouse’s happiness. While you are right that this can be a very “give give” relationship, that’s the only way to really have a happy marriage. You’re not always going to get what you want, nor should you. Your wife has agreed to register with the parish you want- would it be so hard to attend the one she likes with her every now and then? I’m not saying that you should allow yourself to be manipulated, but I think you need to focus less on the idea that “I am the leader” and more on how to strengthen your marriage. Some counseling might be a good idea.

Something else to consider is that with a baby on the way, it would be wise to get used to the idea of “give give”. Because babies take and take. My son is the biggest joy, but it really is a huge exercise in self sacrifice.

 

[pianistclare]

Is your wife having pregnancy complications? I know that in my first trimester I was just so tired and nauseous all the time. I still worked full time, but it was a real struggle. So while I certainly think she should take responsibility for 100% of what she can do, is it possible that what you think she can do and what she actually can do are different? If she feels generally okay though, there really is no reason you should have to do it all.

I think other posters are right that you are making the “husband as leader” thing into a big deal when the issues you are having aren’t really “leadership” issues. I would have a really hard time living with a husband who felt he should have the final say on anything and everything we didn’t disagree on. That’s not going to work out for either of you. She’s going to grow increasingly resentful and so are you, when she doesn’t want to defer to you on everything. Learning to work through things together is a process, and ideally both spouses will “give in” to one another often. You’ve set this up as a “my wife vs. me” issue, and you need to remember that you’re not separate; you’re one. When either one of you is unhappy or distressed, it affects both of you.

You scoffed at the idea that marriage involves a lot of sacrifice, and that you primarily should be concerned with your spouse’s happiness. While you are right that this can be a very “give give” relationship, that’s the only way to really have a happy marriage. You’re not always going to get what you want, nor should you. Your wife has agreed to register with the parish you want- would it be so hard to attend the one she likes with her every now and then? I’m not saying that you should allow yourself to be manipulated, but I think you need to focus less on the idea that “I am the leader” and more on how to strengthen your marriage. Some counseling might be a good idea.

Something else to consider is that with a baby on the way, it would be wise to get used to the idea of “give give”. Because babies take and take. My son is the biggest joy, but it really is a huge exercise in self sacrifice.

Excellent advice.

 

[DCNBILL]

But if your wife is Christian too, does that mean that she is held to the same standard? Or is only the husband held to that standard?

Absolutely, both husband and wife are called to love one other into heaven by giving of themselves for the other in a sacrificial manner.

There will be times when one spouse is “down” and the other has to carry the load and there will be times when both are down and at these times turn to the third party in your marriage for help, for He brought you together and He will always be there for you.

This has worked for us for 37 years so far.

 

[Xantippe]

I think there are a lot of “traditional” families, where the husband is the head, but in reality the wife knows how to get her way anyway.

Right.

The difference being in this case I think the OP recognises this and yes resents it.

Yes.

I agree that focusing on better communication is the best approach. Don’t worry about who gets final say, but worry about the process of working together towards an agreement. If you can agree on things, there is no need for a final say anyway.

**Right!

And building consensus is also a form of leadership.
**

The OP’s wife, as an only child, will not be used to the sorts of compromises that siblings become accustomed to. But this doesn’t mean she should be excused from having to compromise. To be frank, I see marriage counselling in the future here…and perhaps sooner than later would be better.

Yes.

 

[DCNBILL]

I think there are a lot of “traditional” families, where the husband is the head, but in reality the wife knows how to get her way anyway.

This reminds me of what my father in Law said to me the evening before I was married.

He said, “Always remember who is head of the family and how to keep her happy.”

 

[Xantippe]

Is your wife having pregnancy complications? I know that in my first trimester I was just so tired and nauseous all the time. I still worked full time, but it was a real struggle. So while I certainly think she should take responsibility for 100% of what she can do, is it possible that what you think she can do and what she actually can do are different? If she feels generally okay though, there really is no reason you should have to do it all.

**Yes. That is a good point. I’m always exhausted and sort of stupid during pregnancy, although I get occasional weird bursts of energy (I remember once cleaning the underside of a high chair with Q-tips in a frenzy of energy toward the end of my second pregnancy).

A lot of women (especially first-timers) have a burst of energy in the second trimester but as a rule, I haven’t ever been able to do grocery shopping by myself when pregnant. Weird, I know. And I LOVE grocery shopping.

I guess the question is, did she do more before she was pregnant?
**

I think other posters are right that you are making the “husband as leader” thing into a big deal when the issues you are having aren’t really “leadership” issues. I would have a really hard time living with a husband who felt he should have the final say on anything and everything we didn’t disagree on. That’s not going to work out for either of you.
She’s going to grow increasingly resentful and so are you, when she doesn’t want to defer to you on everything.

That was her idea, too, but the problem is that it doesn’t seem like a good fit for them as a couple. He would be rigid and she would be whiny and perhaps manipulative. Not a good look for either of them

Learning to work through things together is a process, and ideally both spouses will “give in” to one another often. You’ve set this up as a “my wife vs. me” issue, and you need to remember that you’re not separate; you’re one. When either one of you is unhappy or distressed, it affects both of you.

Yes.

**And I think SWolf has been setting this up as “what my wife wants versus family welfare” when it really is not that clear-cut.
**

You scoffed at the idea that marriage involves a lot of sacrifice, and that you primarily should be concerned with your spouse’s happiness.

I think that was somebody else, but yes there was scoffing.

While you are right that this can be a very “give give” relationship, that’s the only way to really have a happy marriage. You’re not always going to get what you want, nor should you. Your wife has agreed to register with the parish you want- would it be so hard to attend the one she likes with her every now and then? I’m not saying that you should allow yourself to be manipulated, but I think you need to focus less on the idea that “I am the leader” and more on how to strengthen your marriage. Some counseling might be a good idea.

Something else to consider is that with a baby on the way, it would be wise to get used to the idea of “give give”. Because babies take and take. My son is the biggest joy, but it really is a huge exercise in self sacrifice.

Right.

 

[Xantippe]

Yup, it often doesn’t take much for a woman to change her husband’s mind, and that’s not a bad thing. Even St. Peter understood this dynamic.

(1)Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, (2) when they see the purity and reverence of your lives.

Charm goes a long ways.

The problem is, that’s more or less what the OP’s wife is doing (with some extra whining) and he hates it.

I think a different decision-making structure is in order, with some more adult responsibility for the OP’s wife.

Again, counseling sounds like a good idea!

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Some general advice is to pick one’s battles.

For the OP feeling bitter about the timing of the pregnancy is counterproductive. She’s pregnant, she didn’t get pregnant on her own. It’s not fair to baby to feel bitter about his/her timing.

Is picking a parish that you prefer a necessary battle? I assume that both parishes are in the same dioceses, and that both have oversight of the same bishop.

Also I would recommend reading Fulton Sheen as well.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

You both need to just stop, take a deep breath, and work together on communication. From what I gather, you’re newlyweds who didn’t live together before marriage. If that’s the case, then you’re both putting way to much pressure on the situation.

But first, you need to get this through your head: You did not buy a house. I don’t care who was working, you’re married, and you bought a house together. The mindset you currently have is incompatible with the very nature of marriage, and it’s definitely incompatible with leading a marriage. That outlook probably freaked your wife out a lot. I know that if my husband said that to me, it would shake the trust that the kind of deference you’re looking for is based on. You’re supposed to be one with her for the rest of your lives, and if you want to lead, then take the lead in establishing maritial unity. Don’t undermine it with these kinds of power statements.

Two, the division of labor does need to be more equitable. If you’re working outside the home, them she needs to be working in it. If you’re both working outside the home, then you need to come up with some sort of responsibility divide. But guess what, figuring that out is just a normal growing pain of moving in with someone. Be patient with each other and it will work out.

And finally, it sounds like you’re turning every speed bump into the hill you want to die on. Also, not a good way to go. You want a very special dynamic with your wife and I totally understand that. I love the old school model of male leadership in the family, and I think that when it’s done right, it makes both people feel very safe and secure. But unlike many on this thread, I don’t see the woman as having a moral obligation to do this. I see it as something that’s built on trust and communication and is built gently, gradually, and patiently over time as both people become more comfortable with each other and themselves. You guys are so new at this, you’re demanding she leaves her church, and you’re claiming ownership of your home. You are trying to get your way by twisting her arm and then complaining that she isn’t listening to you even though you’re the man.

Real leaders don’t have to twist arms and they don’t have to fall back on “I have the penis in this marriage!” If you don’t think her church is right for your family, then you absolutely have a right to be heard on that and her church should NOT be the family parish. But instead of saying “I’m the man, I’m in charge!” and coming down hard on her when your approach to getting her out if her childhood church makes her sad, why not ask what she likes about it and find a few options that blend what you guys are looking for? Or, since she’s agreed to register at the church you picked, why not make a monthly visit to her old one?

You don’t lose power in your marriage by using your position to be generous, as you seem to think. In fact, being generous is the best way to help her trust you and it will certainly help get you the respect you’re looking for. You didn’t like that hearing that you need to put her happiness before your own. That’s a problem. The more authority you claim in your family, the greater your responsibility is to them. And if your leadership and decisions show a true desire to listen, consider her feelings, and give as much as you can while keeping things on track, she’s much more likely to respect it when you do put your foot down on something. Right now, you’re trying to enforce your way on everything because that’s what you think you deserve by virtue of being a man. That’s not a strong, masculine family leader and protector, that’s a spoiled, entitled, whiney child.

Right now, the path you’re headed down is one filled with power struggles and strife. If she gets her way, you’ll be an unhappy family where dad has to juggle absolutely everything. But if you get your way with the whole “When we can’t decide then we fall back on what I want” attitude, you risk having a very miserable, unaffectionate, and resentful wife sitting next to you every Sunday in the church you chose. Yeah, you’ll probably get more of what you want on paper, but you’ll be missing out on a loving, affectionate marriage to a wife who is grateful to have you and your leadership in her life.

 

[Xantippe]

You don’t lose power in your marriage by using your position to be generous, as you seem to think. In fact, being generous is the best way to help her trust you and it will certainly help get you the respect you’re looking for.

**Right. **

You didn’t like that hearing that you need to put her happiness before your own. That’s a problem. The more authority you claim in your family, the greater your responsibility is to them.

Right.

Right now, the path you’re headed down is one filled with power struggles and strife. If she gets her way, you’ll be an unhappy family where dad has to juggle absolutely everything. But if you get your way with the whole “When we can’t decide then we fall back on what I want” attitude, you risk having a very miserable, unaffectionate, and resentful wife sitting next to you every Sunday in the church you chose. Yeah, you’ll probably get more of what you want on paper, but you’ll be missing out on a loving, affectionate marriage to a wife who is grateful to have you and your leadership in her life.

Right.

It may take you a while to figure out what it is you both actually want. It may be very different from what you thought you wanted going in. What works for you may not be what works for other people. You are unique individuals–feel free to have a unique marriage.

It might be a good time to read a book by John Gottman or similar together.

 

[Xantippe]

Also, pregnancy is a weird time with regard to emotions and emotional self-regulation. Lots of things are a BIG DEAL that at other times would not be. A pregnant woman can be a lot like a big baby herself. So I would go out of my way not to fight with a pregnant or a postpartum woman. (Ever notice how nice people are to pregnant ladies? That’s self-preservation, not just niceness.)

Vicki Iovine has a very good (but not Catholic) book called The Girlfriend’s Guide to Pregnancy. There’s a chapter entitled “Pregnancy Insanity” that I think will be helpful. Actually, the whole book will be helpful. (I see that a later edition has stuff about abortion–ew!–but if you skip by that, I think there’s a lot of good material on the physical and psychological side of pregnancy for the mother.)

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Right.

It may take you a while to figure out what it is you both actually want. It may be very different from what you thought you wanted going in. What works for you may not be what works for other people. You are unique individuals–feel free to have a unique marriage.

It might be a good time to read a book by John Gottman or similar together.

Yes. And what works now may not be what works in the future. The more flexible you are, the easier life is. Xan and I both started off with completely different marriages than what we have now (both still married to the same men though), and our marriages changed in completely different ways. She went from ultra traditional to pretty egalitarian. I went from egalitarian to a pretty traditional male leadership model.

Marriages are made up of people. If you married in your 20’s, you have 6 or so decades of growing and changing to do, and so does your spouse. Be willing to grow and change together, even if it means life isn’t exactly what you expected.

 

[Xantippe]

Yes. And what works now may not be what works in the future. The more flexible you are, the easier life is. Xan and I both started off with completely different marriages than what we have now (both still married to the same men though), and our marriages changed in completely different ways. She went from ultra traditional to pretty egalitarian. I went from egalitarian to a pretty traditional male leadership model.

Marriages are made up of people. If you married in your 20’s, you have 6 or so decades of growing and changing to do, and so does your spouse. Be willing to grow and change together, even if it means life isn’t exactly what you expected.

Right.

And the flexibility you learn to use with your spouse will be very handy when you have little kids around.

With little kids, you need to be at the same time strong and warm and flexible and consistent–kind of a crazy combination, but necessary!

It’s important to look for opportunities for win-win situations. Earlier this morning, I was walking toward a parking lot with my 2-year-old. I had a route in mind, but 2-year-old is fascinated by some fountains nearby and had previously been distracted by the fountains and difficult to get back on track. It just so happens that this morning, the route by the fountains was even shorter than the route I had originally had in mind. So, I changed my plan and we walked by the fountains–she walked very quickly and happily because she was going a route that she enjoyed.

Don’t accidentally create unnecessary lose-lose situations. Look for opportunities for both of you to win. And yeah, that’s also leadership.

 

[hesso12]

First off I would like to point out the feminism manifests itself in ways that are opposite to how the female brain in hardwired to interact with the world. For example, in relationships it is said the women have to become unattainable, a prize to be won if you will. When they do this they try to be ambitious and create a life for themselves without men, and when a decent man comes along, they refuse to relinquish their power over to him. While women may feel empowered by behaving this way they will naturally try to keep chasing the high of wanting more power, but at what expesnse? Happiness. They will chase their materialistic desires to no end, but will not be able to feel feminine in the process, driving them to end their relationships, marriages, and instead crave attention and nothing more. What does this have to do with the family? Everything! The foundation of the family is the mother and the father. If their relationship is in turmoil the family will be utterly ruined, and as the children grow older they will be filled with insecurity and a constant need to find validation from others that otherwise may have been fulfilled by their parents at a younger age. If a woman cannot relinquish her power in a relationship she will move into her “mommy mode” or maternal instinct mode. In other words, she will treat her husband as if she is his mother. The other downside to feminism is that it installs the idea of “male guilt” into the minds of men, so as to soften their tendencies for assertiveness, a dominant masculine quality in exchange for more feminine wiles such as: seeking validation, giving flowers and gifts in exchange for affection, chasing women, and feeling that certain women are off limits or have intrinsic high value then himself. It is these things that also allow men to potentially become abusive, needy, controlling, servile and stalkerish, argumentative. Then, if you mix this complicated dynamic together and you will have an environment that is not suitable for children to be raised in. As these children grow older they will only perpetuate the warped views of gender roles and further decay the family, and like a malignant cancer these ideas will spread to generations and eventually the family will be in ruins. BUT if we push back against this movement and reform society, then the family will rise again.

debate.org/opinions/has-feminism-destroyed-the-family