Husband doesn't want anymore kids

[underacloud]

Hmmm…please read my most recent post. I think you are misunderstanding my question. This isn’t about me wanting more children and he doesn’t agree.

Yes, looks like we are talking past each other a bit.

Rather it is about the means by which we prevent them from being conceived. I would like to use NFP (probably Marquette since I am breastfeeding) and he would like to artificially contracept. When I went to the Creigton training he wouldn’t even go with me because he thinks it’s a waste of time and there are easier ways and I’m being too scrupulous. I have no desire to have another baby at this time either but I will not sin in order to prevent a baby from being conceived. The result is definitely a strain on our marriage as you pointed out, but it has nothing to do with dismissing my husbands concerns or coercing him into getting me pregnant.

If he can’t be convinced, you may need to consider your options. You can discuss this with your priest. It is morally allowable for a Catholic to have sex with a contracepting spouse under some conditions, which your priest can help you work through.

In short, if he chooses to contracept against your wishes, that’s not on you.

Now you can’t encourage him to do so, but at some point it may arguably be reasonable to make the choices clear:
a) you will not contracept.
b) your strong preference is that you both use NFP.
c) if he chooses to contracept against your wishes, and knowing your clear objection, you will not stop him.

 

[Abundant]

Out of curiosity…you said that you are a father of 4 and don’t want more children. How difficult have you found NFP to be in your scenario and are you confident in the outcome?

 

[underacloud]

Out of curiosity…you said that you are a father of 4 and don’t want more children. How difficult have you found NFP to be in your scenario and are you confident in the outcome?

We have used NFP for most of our marriage, but are not currently using NFP. My wife has had health issues (PCOS and endometriosis) and is currently taking hormonal treatment for that…presumably similar to what you went through previously.

When we have used NFP, we both found it very difficult. Difficult to abstain when needed, and difficult to get it right. Other than during pregnancy, we used NFP for the first ~10 years of our marriage, and have only in the last year or so not had need for it (per above). We used it in obedience to the teaching of the Church, and will use it again if/when needed. But we do not miss it.

While some people on this forum think NFP has been a great blessing and has strengthened their marriage, my wife and I would honestly say we only ever found it frustrating and only did it in obendience. If your husband does not feel such a strong sense of the need for obedience to the Church, it would be very hard for him to get on board with it.

 

[Abundant]

We have used NFP for most of our marriage, but are not currently using NFP. My wife has had health issues (PCOS and endometriosis) and is currently taking hormonal treatment for that…presumably similar to what you went through previously.

When we have used NFP, we both found it very difficult. Difficult to abstain when needed, and difficult to get it right. Other than during pregnancy, we used NFP for the first ~10 years of our marriage, and have only in the last year or so not had need for it (per above). We used it in obedience to the teaching of the Church, and will use it again if/when needed. But we do not miss it.

While some people on this forum think NFP has been a great blessing and has strengthened their marriage, my wife and I would honestly say we only ever found it frustrating and only did it in obendience. If your husband does not feel such a strong sense of the need for obedience to the Church, it would be very hard for him to get on board with it.

Thank you for your honesty. Prior to this point in our marriage, I always had this notion that NFP would be a nice way for us to plan our intimacy together. Everything I had read makes it sound as if it is this lovely, marriage building practice when in fact it is hard, not fun and often frustrating. If we make it through the first few months of it together (without killing eachother) then at least we will be holier for our efforts! Ha!

I guess I am just going to have to take a hard line with my husband and explain to him that I believe it is the best option for me and our family and I hope that he will agree, but if he doesn’t I will not be drawn into sin with him. I’m going to have to do a little research though because I know that he is now considering vesectomy (not sure if he is serious about that) and even offered to pick up some condoms at the grocery store. (No thanks!) I wonder what my moral culpability is if he wants to use those. Sounds like I need to make a visit to the priest. … It also sounds like I should be spending more time in prayer than on Catholic Answers.

 

[Viki63]

You sound like you have figured out your plan – pray and visit a priest for clarification. That sounds really wise.

I would suggest you see a counselor, hopefully a Catholic one. I don’t want to be hard on your husband, but it sounds like he prefers contraception because he wants intimacy when he wants it, and doesn’t want to be balked by NFP. That’s basically the contraceptive mentality, which is that the spouse is for the use of their partner when he wants it,
Not really a loving attitude.
The other thought is that maybe God might want you to have another baby in the future. No one seems to have mentioned that. If your husband has a vasectomy, he’s basically saying to God, I’ll make my plans and too bad if you don’t like them. So again counseling is in order.
God bless.

 

[SusanneT]

In my first post I just mentioned the money because I have seen it mentioned in other threads as a reason to not have more children and I just wanted to point out in advance that it wasn’t a reason. I only reiterated it because I think that is what the person who replied was understanding the problem could be.

Basically-it boils down to this: I love the three kids we have. I am happy with just three and if I’m perfectly honest, I don’t want to go through a pregnancy or section again either. However, I was also happy when we just had two as well and I wouldn’t trade the third for anything. I don’t want to force my husband to have a baby. And certainly since I am so new postpartum, still breastfeeding etc. I don’t feel compelled to have any more right now anyway. The difference is that I think we should not adopt a contraceptive mentality and that we should make sure that every marital act is open to life. My husband disagrees. He doesn’t want kids, and he wants to prevent them from being conceived. I don’t especially want more either, BUT I beleive that we can be responsible in our family planning but still leave room for God to bless us with more kids if He so wills it. While I was pregnant, my husband put a lot of pressure on me to get my tubes tied too. He non-challanty referred to it as “getting fixed,” so many times that I actually ended up in tears and told him that it really hurt my feelings because there are risks (and why would he want me to take those?) and I don’t need to be fixed becaus I am not broken. So, while we both agree that we don’t want any more kids (especially right now), we just cannot agree on a way to achieve that. I hope that helps clarify the questions.

I completely agree with your point about not adopting a contraceptive mentality and your resistance to regarding your God given fertility as “a problem” which needs “fixing” - well put.

 

[underacloud]

I guess I am just going to have to take a hard line with my husband and explain to him that I believe it is the best option for me and our family and I hope that he will agree, but if he doesn’t I will not be drawn into sin with him. I’m going to have to do a little research though because I know that he is now considering vesectomy (not sure if he is serious about that) and even offered to pick up some condoms at the grocery store. (No thanks!) I wonder what my moral culpability is if he wants to use those. Sounds like I need to make a visit to the priest. … It also sounds like I should be spending more time in prayer than on Catholic Answers.

The answer is none. If he has a vasectomy or used condoms against your wishes, you have no moral culpability at all. You can (and arguably should) continue to have marital relations with him even if he (acting alone and against your wishes) does these things.

It will be unfortunate if he makes this sort of decision and it will understandably cause some strain between you, but think carefully about causing further strain by ceasing marital relations because if this. It is for the greater good of the marriage that the non-contracepting spouse is allowed by the Church to continue in marital relations.

Here is a question and answer regarding this from the Ask an Apologist section of this website:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=124621

For the more technical answer, you can read this, but it is well summarised in the above link anyway: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/family/documents/rc_pc_family_doc_12021997_vademecum_en.html

 

[skippley]

References have been made to two systems of NFP, the Creighton model and the Marquette model. Regarding the first, be aware that the people behind the Creighton model do their user-effectiveness statistics in a way different from those in the rest of the NFP movement, a way that makes the CrM user-effectiveness statistics appear higher than they are when done by the standard statistical method. For more, see nfpandmore.org/pdf/relative_effectiveness.pdf .
I would suggest that you teach yourself the Sympto-Thermal Method. The postovulation temperature rise gives additional certainty of being past ovulation. The optional cervix sign is helpful to many breastfeeding mothers. If you teach yourself from the manual of NFP International, *Natural Family Planning: The Complete Approach, * you will also learn about Ecological Breastfeeding which is distinctly different from exclusive breastfeeding. See www.nfpandmore.org .
Regarding your husband’s attitude, perhaps the renewal-of-the-marriage-covenant theology can help him to internalize the Christian tradition of the meaning of the marriage act and the immorality of unnatural forms of birth control.
And by the way, women taking the Pill should abstain completely because of the abortifacient properties of hormonal birth control. And there is some evidence that vasectomy increases the risk of prostate cancer.

 

[Xantippe]

Hmmm…please read my most recent post. I think you are misunderstanding my question. This isn’t about me wanting more children and he doesn’t agree. Rather it is about the means by which we prevent them from being conceived. I would like to use NFP (probably Marquette since I am breastfeeding) and he would like to artificially contracept. When I went to the Creigton training he wouldn’t even go with me because he thinks it’s a waste of time and there are easier ways and I’m being too scrupulous. I have no desire to have another baby at this time either but I will not sin in order to prevent a baby from being conceived. The result is definitely a strain on our marriage as you pointed out, but it has nothing to do with dismissing my husbands concerns or coercing him into getting me pregnant.

Refusing to go is a major marital faux pas on his part.

If you do another training or learn another method, put your foot down next time and get him to learn the method with you. He should know it at least as well as you do. “What’s the worst thing that will happen to you if you go to this training or learn this with me?” is a reasonable thing to ask him. Also, “Do you think I’ll do a better job with NFP with your help or without your help?” is another reasonable question.

 

[Xantippe]

After I weaned baby # 2 at 18 months, I was put on contraception for female problems. I wrestled with the decision, but after consulting with my priest and much thought I conceded. I took ABC for about 2 years. When she was 4 1/2, I started to really feel like God was calling me to have another baby. My husband did not want another baby, but I told him that I had prayed and prayed about it, and I was not going to take ABC anymore. I went to confession for taking the ABC because each time I would take it, I just felt that it was wrong. I will say that my dr did put a lot of pressure on me. I explained that I was Catholic and did not believe in it multiple times before finally giving in. I prayed, and told God that I was going to be obedient, even if that mean putting my health at risk and that I would just trust in Him. For about 6 months, I felt great. All of my previous symptoms had gone away…then, suddenly I started to feel sick again. I was having pain, feeling nauseous, etc etc. I prayed again and told God that I was really trying to be obedient, but I was feeling horrible…then the next week I got a positive pregnancy test! All of my symptoms were because we were having a new baby.We were shocked, but excited. He is now 3 months old and we couldn’t be happier with him. My husband is a great father and loves all of the kids.

Now that I’ve read this again, I’m starting to wonder if your problems with your husband now aren’t blowback for the fact that you kind of steamrolled him with the last pregnancy.

 

[Abundant]

Now that I’ve read this again, I’m starting to wonder if your problems with your husband now aren’t blowback for the fact that you kind of steamrolled him with the last pregnancy.

You’ve got to be kidding me. I didn’t get myself pregnant…I’m pretty sure he was there when it happened. He was perfectly willing at the time and delighted with the baby.

 

[Country_Gal]

Three children is a heavy load in this day and age, especially if you want to assist them eventually with higher education. We don’t live in simple times anymore. Take it from me, I have six, it was very difficult, especially after my husband died. My middle two sons are distant, I really feel I wasn’t able to give them the emotional support they needed in all the chaos. So, I totally get where your husband is coming from.

I really wish the Church would make it easier on modern families. With women needing to be in the workforce more and more, it makes it really difficult to have larger families.

 

[edlinked]

This is a difficult subject but I would think you need counseling from a priest that knows about love and therefore sex ethics in marriage. A book everyone should read is John Paul II Love and responsibility. It talks about the correct approach to sex for people that really love each other and love God and want to do what He wants.

The Church teaches consistently that the primary end of marriage is procreation (objectively speaking marriage is above all to serve existence), whereas the secondary end is what in Latin terminology has been defined as Mutuum Adiutorium (relationship between a man and a woman). The tertiary end is Remedium concupiscentiae (The correct direction of concupiscence).

The book states that the sex drive has objectively an existential end, and love should direct it correctly, because if not it can derail to using of persons, which you can’t do, even in marriage. Pleasure cannot be an end. That’s why it is not safe to practice sex without limits because the sex drive grows as you let it, and then it’s hard to subdue it again. Self mastery is the key and here abstinence and many other things (like natural methods) play major roles.
Enjoying sexual pleasure through another person for the sake of pleasure alone (disregarding the objective finality of sexual use as intrinsically open to procreation) constitutes an abuse. On the other, hand rejecting pleasure in favor of procreation alone leads to another form of abuse (namely rigorism) for the lived experience of pleasure is an integral part of authentic frui (good enjoyment). But it has to be done responsibly applying the personalistic norm adequately. (Meaning that the personalistic norm should be understood fully).

The personalistic norm as principle says: The person is a kind of being such that only love constitutes the proper and fully mature relation to it.
Love (spousal love) in a simplistic way is giving my “I” and wanting the best for the other. In a way, it is some interpersonal synthesis and synchronization of fondness, desire, benevolence, friendship and add to it, giving oneself. It is the reciprocal self-giving of persons, as it has to be reciprocal, if not it is not love.
Love of the person must consist in affirming his supramaterial and supraconsumer (suprautilitarian) value. Whoever loves, will attempt to show this in his entire conduct.
Love is first of all a principle or an idea which people must live up to, so to speak, in their conduct if they want –and they should want- to liberate it from a utilitarian attitude toward other persons. Loving the other person demands a recognition of not only his final end and his vocation to it, but also his capacity (interiority) and responsibility to order his conduct toward that end (through his self determination) and to become good (or evil) in this conduct.

But this should be dealt by someone capable of managing the situation as it needs a lot of wisdom and experience. It is necessary to talk objectively about actions and their consequences. Because contraception’s or procedures done without being needed could be getting in bad waters. We have to do what is right no matter if that is not enjoyable at the moment, but that’s why there is the first commandment, we should do what pleases God before us, as we know that’s in our best benefit. With this I am not saying it’s easy, it definitely very hard at times, but it’s a decision, so we need to pray.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Àpologies if this has already been mentioned or if im oversimplifying this as I haven’t read all the posts. Your youngest is only 11weeks, are you sure its not just because there is a new baby in the house and he wants to adjust and give time to that little one first. I know so many people who shortly after a new arrival have been adamant they didn’t want anymore children but went onto have others.

 

[12345678]

Now that I’ve read this again, I’m starting to wonder if your problems with your husband now aren’t blowback for the fact that you kind of steamrolled him with the last pregnancy.

You’ve got to be kidding me. I didn’t get myself pregnant…I’m pretty sure he was there when it happened. He was perfectly willing at the time and delighted with the baby.

I wasn’t going to log on, but saw this comment and decided to do so.

For Real? Steamrolled him? Ughhhh society nowadays loves to “blame” one spouse or another for pregnancies. God placed that soul there as a result of their marital embrace, a natural and expected result of marital love. All three of them were part of the creation of that child.

You are doing well, OP, in trying to help your husband do what God wants of him, not what he finds easiest.

 

[UbiCaritas]

And by the way, **women taking the Pill should abstain **completely because of the abortifacient properties of hormonal birth control.  And there is some evidence that vasectomy increases the risk of prostate cancer.

The bolded is untrue; the church teaches no such thing. A woman and her husband may choose to abstain for this reason if she is on hormonal contraception for a medical reason other than contraception, but they are not required to. See Humanae Vitae:

Lawful Therapeutic Means

1. On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever.

 

[MJJean]

You’ve got to be kidding me. I didn’t get myself pregnant…I’m pretty sure he was there when it happened. He was perfectly willing at the time and delighted with the baby.

Of course it took both of you to make that baby, but did your DH know that you were having sex during your fertile time? If not, I can see how he might have felt “steamrolled”.

My DH is clueless about when I ovulate and when my monthly begins and ends. Always has been. Talking to other couples I find this is quite common. And more common is the male “kind of” knowing. By that, I mean he’s peripherally aware that it’s close to the fertile time or is the fertile time while not being truly consciously aware. In those cases, the man has sex with his wife and then feels all shocked and surprised when it turns out there is a baby on the way.

 

[12345678]

Of course it took both of you to make that baby, but did your DH know that you were having sex during your fertile time? If not, I can see how he might have felt “steamrolled”.

My DH is clueless about when I ovulate and when my monthly begins and ends. Always has been. Talking to other couples I find this is quite common. And more common is the male “kind of” knowing. By that, I mean he’s peripherally aware that it’s close to the fertile time or is the fertile time while not being truly consciously aware. In those cases, the man has sex with his wife and then feels all shocked and surprised when it turns out there is a baby on the way.

If a married couple has sex, they know a baby can be conceived. Unless they were following her symptoms of fertility to avoid, and she purposefully deceived him by telling him she was not fertile when she was (which I highly doubt that was the situation), then she is not pushing him into a pregnancy without his knowledge! The natural consequence of sex is that a baby can conceived, and it is part of God’s design for this to happen and is something good. A woman does not have to be constantly checking her fertility and bringing up whether or not she is fertile every time a couple decides to have sex. A couple can prayerfully discern a need to avoid and decide to use NFP to avoid, but a couple can also leave themselves open to pregnancy without using NFP and it doesn’t mean the wife is steamrolling her husband into anything!

 

[Xantippe]

Of course it took both of you to make that baby, but did your DH know that you were having sex during your fertile time? If not, I can see how he might have felt “steamrolled”.

My DH is clueless about when I ovulate and when my monthly begins and ends. Always has been. Talking to other couples I find this is quite common. And more common is the male “kind of” knowing. By that, I mean he’s peripherally aware that it’s close to the fertile time or is the fertile time while not being truly consciously aware. In those cases, the man has sex with his wife and then feels all shocked and surprised when it turns out there is a baby on the way.

There’s even a traditional joke about this that I’ve often seen in pop culture (and that’s mainstream, contracepting pop culture).

She: I’m pregnant!

He: How did this happen!!!

 

[MJJean]

There’s even a traditional joke about this that I’ve often seen in pop culture (and that’s mainstream, contracepting pop culture).

She: I’m pregnant!

He: How did this happen!!!

It’s astounding how many men forget sex makes babies.

It seems a lot of men just assume the wife will say something if it’s a risky time and the wife assumes the husband already knows and is willing to take his chances.

For a woman ovulation and the day menstrual flow will begin are part of her normal thought process. For most men, not so much. I’ve found over the years men need very direct and plain speaking on the matter.

For example, were I practicing NFP and my husband and I were about to be intimate I might say something like “Are you sure you want to do this right now?” meaning “I am ovulating or close to ovulation.” and I would be thinking he knew what I meant. Would my DH understand that? Nope! He’d be wondering if I meant the time of day or the mood or if I was worried about being interrupted or something. He’d say “Sure!” and be entirely willing to proceed completely clueless that we’re risking pregnancy.

Now, if I said “Are you sure you want to do this right now because I am likely to get pregnant.” it would be a whole different ballgame.