HV, sex and hell

[NoelFitz]

Why do most Catholics in the west reject Humanae Vitae?

Are most of these living in sin?

My permanent problem is that most Catholics appear to be heading for hell, either through non-attendance at Sunday Mass or by rejecting the Church’s teaching on sex.

I cannot understand how a loving God can create so many people who, it seems, will end up being punished for all eternity.

 

[Della]

Why do most Catholics in the west reject Humanae Vitae?

They’ve been poorly catechized, especially when many priests and bishops were against it and refused to teach it. And the whole culture is against it.

Are most of these living in sin?

Not necessarily. I don’t mean that no one is, but rather that many don’t even know they are.

My permanent problem is that most Catholics appear to be heading for hell, either through non-attendance at Sunday Mass or by rejecting the Church’s teaching on sex.

Certainly these sins are being committed, but how culpable people are depends on their knowledge that these are sins. A lot of people simply don’t know they are. Once again, due to poor catechesis and/or following the norms of their culture.

I cannot understand how a loving God can create so many people who, it seems, will end up being punished for all eternity.

But since we cannot know who is doomed to hell and who isn’t that’s not for us to worry about. Our job is to not sin ourselves and help others not to sin by educating them in charity and praying for them. Yes?

 

[ghaybyers1]

Why do most Catholics in the west reject Humanae Vitae?

Are most of these living in sin?

My permanent problem is that most Catholics appear to be heading for hell, either through non-attendance at Sunday Mass or by rejecting the Church’s teaching on sex.

I cannot understand how a loving God can create so many people who, it seems, will end up being punished for all eternity.

The bolded section is where you’ll find your answer.
God did not create us to be punished- God loves us! And also because He loves us, He gave us free will.
The Church, His Church tells us with excellent documents like Humanae Vitae how we are to regard sex (and with other documents like the Catechism, as well as through the guidance of our earthly shephards, our dear beloved priests and our Pope) and all other aspects of life.
We can choose to neglect and reject the teachings of the Church. But this is OUR choice, not God’s. He created the perfect home for us in the Catholic Church, all we have to do is accept it and it’s teachings and our lives will be so much more than before. And I DO say that as a convert

 

[thistle]

Why do most Catholics in the west reject Humanae Vitae?

Are most of these living in sin?

My permanent problem is that most Catholics appear to be heading for hell, either through non-attendance at Sunday Mass or by rejecting the Church’s teaching on sex.

I cannot understand how a loving God can create so many people who, it seems, will end up being punished for all eternity.

I didn’t realise you personally knew all 1.2 billion Catholics to make a statement like “most Catholics”.

 

[Timmy_Z]

I didn’t realise you personally knew all 1.2 billion Catholics to make a statement like “most Catholics”.

Looking on from the outside, I believe this is a huge challenge for the RCC. Every survey I have seen shows that majorities of Western RC’s disagree with these church teachings.

By the churches own teachings, a majority of its members are in mortal sin (condemned).

It destroys the RCC claims of a unified church in one faith.

I cannot understand how a loving God can create so many people who, it seems, will end up being punished for all eternity.

Unfortunately Jesus knew and told us that most people would reject Him:

Matthew 7:13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it

To me it seems that dissenters within church folds in such numbers illustrates the error of the view that the true church is visible.

-Tim

 

[thistle]

Looking on from the outside, I believe this is a huge challenge for the RCC. **Every survey I have seen shows that majorities of Western RC’s disagree with these church teachings. **

**By the churches own teachings, a majority of its members are in mortal sin (condemned). **

It destroys the RCC claims of a unified church in one faith.

Unfortunately Jesus knew and told us that most people would reject Him:

Matthew 7:13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it

To me it seems that dissenters within church folds in such numbers illustrates the error of the view that the true church is visible.

-Tim

Can you please quote your sources so we can read them for ourselves.

 

[NoelFitz]

Della

Many thanks for your reply to me.

Why do many priests and bishops disagree with HV? Why is our whole culture against it? Is the Church asking folk to go against their values? In the early years of our era converts were made because people believed the Church represented the best in civilization, Cicero Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, and most Stoics advocated a morality similar to Christianity.

Your reply seems to echo the view that “Where ignorance is bliss ‘tis folly to be wise”. You implicitly give the reason why we do not hear sermons on contraception.

In Ireland it is expected that if a priest spoke about chastity in a church there might be an uproar or a walk-out, with screams of outrage about clerical sex abuse.

You wrote:

But since we cannot know who is doomed to hell and who isn’t that’s not for us to worry about. Our job is to not sin ourselves and help others not to sin by educating them in charity and praying for them. Yes?

Again in Ireland at most funerals it is assumed the recently deceased was a saint and is instantly canonized. We are following the Protestant practice of celebrating the life of the deceased. Surely we should be concerned if a person is not practising virtue. Are we to accept murder and injustice as normal behaviour? Should we be indifferent about whether people are tormented for all eternity or not?

For many are called, but few are chosen
(Matt 22:14).
He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead’ (Luk 16:31).

 

[NoelFitz]

Timmy Z

You wrote:

Looking on from the outside, I believe this is a huge challenge for the RCC. Every survey I have seen shows that majorities of Western RC’s disagree with these church teachings.

By the churches own teachings, a majority of its members are in mortal sin (condemned).

Well said. You succinctly express what I was trying to say, but without your clarity.

However it is a pity that this clear view had to come from an ‘outsider’.

I would hope the viewers here would consider your statements carefully and give me a satisfactory resolution of this dilemma.

 

[NoelFitz]

.

God did not create us to be punished- God loves us! And also because He loves us, He gave us free will…We can choose to neglect and reject the teachings of the Church. But this is OUR choice, not God’s. He created the perfect home for us in the Catholic Church, all we have to do is accept it and it’s teachings and our lives will be so much more than before. And I DO say that as a convert

This reply gives the standard reply.

However God knows all things. When he creates a person who will spend eternity being tormented in hell, he knows this, yet he goes ahead and does it. He could omit to make that person or change circumstance so that person would not be damned.

By definition everyone loves God. If we don’t we end up in hell.

This free will thing is strange. Pollsters and politicians know we can be swayed to do what others want us to do. God could show us good more clearly and evil in its true colours.

We do evil because it seems good (sub specie boni). Our choices are not fully free, since original sin “our passions incline us to evil”.

We are really not given a free choice. We are commanded to love God in the Sh’ma. One might as well say that in World War I soldiers had a free choice to obey commands or not, but if they disobeyed they were shot.

Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God, the Lord alone.a 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might ( New Revised Standard, Dt 6:4-5).

This dilemma is considered in a book by Hans Urs von Balthasar that I am trying to read at present, but it is heavy going.

 

[Timmy_Z]

Can you please quote your sources so we can read them for ourselves

Here you go:

sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/179/4068/41

The Revolution in Birth Control Practices of U.S. Roman Catholics
Charles F. Westoff 1 and Larry Bumpass 2
1 Office of Population Research, Princeton University, Princeton, New Jersey 08540
2 Center for Demography and Ecology, University of Wisconsin, Madison 53706

There has been a wide and increasing defection of Roman Catholic women from the traditional teaching of their Church on the subject of birth control over the past two decades and a resulting convergence of Catholic and non-Catholic contraceptive practices. By 1970, two-thirds of all Catholic women were using methods disapproved by their Church; this figure reached three-quarters for women under age 30. Considering the fact that most of the one-quarter of young Catholic women conforming to Church teaching had never used any method, the percentage of those deviating may well reach 90 as these women grow older and the problems of fertility control become more important.

Much of this increasing deviation has been among the more educated Catholics, who were formerly the most faithful adherents to Church teaching. The change between 1965 and 1970 was especially striking for Catholic women who had attended college.

Perhaps the most significant finding is that the defection has been most pronounced among the women who receive Communion at least once a month. Even among this group, the majority now deviates from Church teaching on birth control; among the younger women in this group, the proportion not conforming reaches two-thirds.

It seems abundantly clear that U.S. Catholics have rejected the 1968 papal encyclical’s statement on birth control and that there exists a wide gulf between the behavior of most Catholic women, on the one hand, and the position of the more conservative clergy and the official stand of the Church itself, on the other. That many Catholics can continue in their other religious practices and simultaneously deviate on the issue of birth control is an interesting commentary on the process of social change.

Ultimately this crisis of authority will probably be resolved by a change in official teaching, since it seems doubtful that such a major discrepancy can continue indefinitely without other repercussions. At a minimum, the cost to the Roman Catholic Church will be a loss of authority in a major area of life: that of sex and reproduction.

medicalnewstoday.com/articles/22678.php

Many Catholics Reject Church Ban on Birth Control, Condoms for HIV Prevention; New Pope Unlikely To Have Differing Views
Main Category: Sexual Health / STDs
Article Date: 13 Apr 2005 - 6:00 PDT
A large majority of Roman Catholics in the United States, Europe and developing nations largely ignore the church’s teaching banning the use of artificial birth control, the… Baltimore Sun reports. The late Pope John Paul II in 1968 restated the Catholic Church’s doctrine on the issue, saying that “every marriage must remain open to the transmission of human life” and that all forms of contraception are intrinsically evil. However, more than 75% of U.S. Catholics believe the church should allow the use of contraception, according to a recent Gallup poll (Roylance, Baltimore Sun, 4/10). Because U.S. Catholics tend to abide by the values they consider most important and “quietly ignor[e]” church teachings with which they disagree, many U.S. Catholics use birth control regularly, the New York Times reports (Murphy/Banerjee, New York Times, 4/11). In addition, Italy – which is 97% Catholic – has the lowest birth rate in all of Europe, and that rate has declined since 1978, when John Paul II became pope, according to the Sun (Baltimore Sun, 4/10).

 

[jfoges]

using contraception is considered a grave act by the Magisterium. However, just because people commit grave acts does not mean they are guilty of mortal sin. These acts an be venial sins depending on the circumstances surrounding the act. It is between the individual and God whether that individual is in mortal sin.

 

[averheyen]

Why do most Catholics in the west reject Humanae Vitae?

Are most of these living in sin?

My permanent problem is that most Catholics appear to be heading for hell, either through non-attendance at Sunday Mass or by rejecting the Church’s teaching on sex.

I cannot understand how a loving God can create so many people who, it seems, will end up being punished for all eternity.

You know, sometimes I ask myself the same questions and wonder if that’s where I’m headed.

 

[NoelFitz]

Timmy Z, Jfoges and all who are contributing to this thread

Many thanks for your contributions and the thoughtful way contraception is being discussed.

For an act to be sinful it must be grievious and committed with clear knowledge and full consent. As far as contraception is concerned the act is grievious, according to the Church. The lack of clear knowledge and full consent may allow one to avoid committing mortal sin.

However it is clear that most Catholics in the US, Europe and Australasia reject the Church’s teaching on contraception.

Are most of them in sin? Will most of them end up in hell? Can the Catholic Church continue to claim those who reject its teaching as members?

The debate needs to continue.

 

[Della]

The idea that everyone in the Church must be acting like a perfect saint and always in agreement with everything the Church teaches in order for the Church to claim unity in faith and morals is an old charge and a false one.

The Church has NEVER had all its members on the same page nor has it always been filled with nothing but saints.

The Church’s claim to unity is not based on this at all. So, it is also a strawman argument.

The Church’s claim to unity comes from Jesus’ promise that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth. He never claimed everyone would be saintly nor that there wouldn’t be dissenters, nor that at times in Church history the majority of believers wouldn’t be in fact heretics, or dissenters or sinners. He claimed just the opposite!

When Jesus told the parable of the wheat and the tares he was teaching us that there is wheat even if the field of the Church is overgrown with tares. On Judgment Day individuals will be sorted out as to which they were, but the field is still a wheat field and it is still the only source of nourishment that Jesus gave us. If we see others sinning or dissenting it is out duty to lovingly correct them not condemn the Church Christ founded nor leave her believing in a misconception as to what Church unity means.

 

[Timmy_Z]

Della,

This is off topic of the OP, but I believe there is greater unity of faith and doctrine amongst conservative evangelicals than RCs.

Amongst the various denominations we all hold to the essentials that we believe are necessary for salvation. RCs do not.

-Tim

 

[Timmy_Z]

I cannot understand how a loving God can create so many people who, it seems, will end up being punished for all eternity.

You know, sometimes I ask myself the same questions and wonder if that’s where I’m headed.

There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’
C. S. Lewis

God cannot force those who reject Him their whole life to love Him for all eternity. Forced love is rape.

 

[larsegarots]

If we thought about contraception for a moment, would you not conclude that it provides great benefit to society?

 

[mark_a]

Looking on from the outside, I believe this is a huge challenge for the RCC. Every survey I have seen shows that majorities of Western RC’s disagree with these church teachings.

By the churches own teachings, a majority of its members are in mortal sin (condemned).

It destroys the RCC claims of a unified church in one faith.

Unfortunately Jesus knew and told us that most people would reject Him:

Matthew 7:13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it

To me it seems that dissenters within church folds in such numbers illustrates the error of the view that the true church is visible.

-Tim

Unfortunately, you are confusing the Church’s teachings with its members’ rejection of the teachings.

Should the Catholic Church cave like all the rest?

 

[mark_a]

If we thought about contraception for a moment, would you not conclude that it provides great benefit to society?

Could you elaborate?

The goal of contraception isn’t to avoid pregnancy, its to avoid abstinence.

 

[Timmy_Z]

If we thought about contraception for a moment, would you not conclude that it provides great benefit to society?

The world would be better without it.