HV, sex and hell

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JR
You wrote:
the soul is judged not on a single act, but on an entire life.
This is a new one on me.

I had alwaays believed that if one commits a mortal sin one is damned. All one’s good acts count for nothing. God sees even our most secret thoughts and actions. One strike and you’re out.

For a sin to be mortal the act must be grievious and committed with clear knowledge and full consent.

At the last judgement all we can do is hope in God’s mercy.

Perhaps a good lawyer could help, maybe Our Lady.

Can one plead lack of knowledge or full consent? How about the principle of the Double Effect? The Power of the Keys might work. Finally could one try the defence that one only keeps the two great commandments of loving God and neighbor?

However the fundamental picture seems clear. Most Catholics are apparently in the state of mortal sin due to contraception, intimate relations outside marriage or missing Mass on Sundays. Remember every sin agains the sixth and ninth commandment is grave matter.
 
Only if they firmly intend to sin no more. You can’t be absolved of a sin that you are actually planning to commit again.
So when a gal hits menopause, swing by the confessional, and all is well again…:cool:
 
So when a gal hits menopause, swing by the confessional, and all is well again…:cool:
That could be. Yet what happens if she died before she went to confession and had no opportunity to be sorry for her sin?
 
That could be. Yet what happens if she died before she went to confession and had no opportunity to be sorry for her sin?
You have a point, but that is the exception, not the rule.

My point is, when you insist that people follow strictly, “The Rules” you don’t always get what you intended either…
 
So when a gal hits menopause, swing by the confessional, and all is well again…:cool:
If a person is 25 years old and is expecting to wait until age 60 before making one’s first good Confession in adult life, it seems a bit presumptuous - first, you are presuming that you will live to be 60, second, you are presuming that you will still even believe in God at age 60 without the benefit of the graces of the Sacraments - but, yeah, in theory - this could work. 🤷

The woman has a better chance of making it to age 60 than the man, I think, but the man is just as guilty of the sin of contraception as the woman, if he doesn’t encourage her to stop using it. So, one is risking not only one’s own eternity, but that of one’s spouse, by presuming that one will be able to make a good Confession and return to the Sacraments of the Church at the end of menopause.

It seems like a heck of a risk to take, from my point of view.
 
You have a point, but that is the exception, not the rule.

My point is, when you insist that people follow strictly, “The Rules” you don’t always get what you intended either…
Would you be willing to take the chance? Every day we read of persons of childbearing age dieing suddenly.:eek:
 
There have been many changes since the 60’s. To pin all of these on contraception is a shock to me, and impossible for you to prove. It would be hard to even make a remotely logical argument that contraception is the cause.

Please google Dr. Janet Smith Contraception Why Not? She goes all around the country and gives a very convincing, logical argument about this. You can read her talk. She quotes John Paul II’s predictions also. Did you know that the birthcontrol pill kicks in as an abortifacent when the first mechanism fails. The second mechanism makes the uterine lining hostile to the already conceived baby and it is unable to stay in the uterus. This can happen every four months. I am telling you all of this because I was once thinking the way you are. No one had ever explained all of this to me. What did you think about how contraception is saying no to God and taking Him out of the act. There are lots of classes available for npf.

Society is not perfect, but I think the morals today have evolved to become closer to Jesus’ teachings than any point in history. It wasn’t too long ago that slavery was legal, there was killing in the name of Christianity, multi-racial marriages were illegal, women were not treated equally, etc.

What about the acceptance of fornication, adultery, homosexual acts, and the widespread use of pornography? Jesus spoke against these many times.

You may feel that you will be better prepared 4 years from now but it is not about our feelings. It is about being obedient to Jesus and the teachings of His Church. He said to his apostles the first bishops and pope “What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven” I will pray that you will see the truth because the truth will set you free.

My wife and I have discussed this and we both feel we’ll be better prepared at least 4 years from now. There were many factors, some of which included finances and where we live (we are moving in 2 years). I do have trust in God that we should be waiting./QU
 
Would you be willing to take the chance? Every day we read of persons of childbearing age dieing suddenly.:eek:
My offspring head-count pretty much says that I did NOT take that chance. 👍

I am merely pointing out the reality of what we see today. I am only surmising, but I suspect that a large number of Cathoics DO use ABC. And we also know that a large number of Catholics DO avail themselves of Confession more frequently as they get older, and Last Rites if a known end draws near.

I am not promoting it. I am just saying that the way the “rules” are set up, one could easily use ABC during their childbearing years, and should they feel guilty about it later, Confession will absolve it. I don’t make the “rules” I just observe/live with them. 😃
 
I didn’t realize that.
So the Hell that Jesus saw and descended into, is not the same Hell that Satan(Lucifer and his Angels) went to?

Does this means there are two different types of Hell?

One for the dead and one for the damned?
There are not two hells. The problem is the use of the term in the Greek the term meant the underworld. Which if you remember your Greek mythology, that was the place where there dead went after they crossed the River Styx.

This term was adopted by Greek Christians to represent the place of the dead.

The same term was used by the Latins to represent Gehena (sp?) which was used by the Jews. This was the place where Satan dwelt.

You have two cultures using the same term for two different situations. Both the Greek Christians and the Latin Christians put together our earliest theological treatises. There is going to be a confusion in the language.

Another term that was equally confusing was the word Lord. That’s why we use the Greek, Kyrie, instead of the Latin. The Latin term conjured up the image of Caesar rather than God.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
JR
You wrote:

This is a new one on me.

I had alwaays believed that if one commits a mortal sin one is damned. All one’s good acts count for nothing. God sees even our most secret thoughts and actions. One strike and you’re out.
The subscript is mine. If you notice the way that you’re saying it, ask yourself if that sounds like a merciful God. Those of us who are older were often taught catechism by the good sisters, who were faithful, but unfortunately not well trained in theology. School sisters were usually trained in secular education.

But the theology of the Church has always been that mortal sin cuts us off from the source of Grace, which is God. However, the Church has never formerlly said that one mortal sin will condemn a soul to hell. The answer is that we just don’t know. Based on what we know about he mercy of God, the Church reasonably hopes that one action will not serve to condemn a soul to hell. If the Church beleived this she would have made such a statement about the fate of Archbishop Lefebvre.

If we notice, the Church’s position was that the Archbishop committed a serious sin and was excommunicated, but has never judged his soul.

The same is found in the the encyclical Humanae Vitae. The Holy Father spoke of the gravity of the matter and the sinfulness. Humanae Vitae does not say that one will go to hell. That is up to the judgment of God.

We need to speak about these subjects objectively and make sure that the reader understands that we are speaking objectively. The subjective condition of the soul and final disposition is not for us to speculate.

JR 🙂
 
There are not two hells. The problem is the use of the term in the Greek the term meant the underworld. Which if you remember your Greek mythology, that was the place where there dead went after they crossed the River Styx.

This term was adopted by Greek Christians to represent the place of the dead.

The same term was used by the Latins to represent Gehena (sp?) which was used by the Jews. This was the place where Satan dwelt.

You have two cultures using the same term for two different situations. Both the Greek Christians and the Latin Christians put together our earliest theological treatises. There is going to be a confusion in the language.

Another term that was equally confusing was the word Lord. That’s why we use the Greek, Kyrie, instead of the Latin. The Latin term conjured up the image of Caesar rather than God.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
Thanks for the explanation.
To be honest with you though, I didn’t understand a thing you typed. I don’t know anything about Greek mythology.
I did understand the part where you said that there are not two hells though. Thanks Be To God. 🙂
 
If God had not intended for us to enjoy sex, he would not have made it so pleasurable. Contraception provides a responsible way for my wife and I to have sex without having children yet.

This is ridiculous.

Half of all marriages end in divorce, period. The fact that they are also using contraception is likely, since most of the people in this country use it. It would be a logical fallacy to draw a cause and effect relationship.

What makes you say this?
If you would really like to discuss it I am more than happy to explain each and every fine point. I can even make every one of your arguments too. I was there. I used to think these exact same thoughts about contraception. I was and still am an intelligent, well read, woman. I very nearly left the Church over what I found to be unreasonable expectations on married couples and strange ideas about the purpose of the marriage act. I actually studied my way back into the Church using secular resources. What I found is that the Church’s position is the most logical and reasonable. The subject of contraception on some level elicits a knee-jerk response. I thought that I had thought it out. I hadn’t. I was making an emotional decision that didn’t line up with objective Truth.

The first point to consider is that pleasure is not the purpose of sex. Procreation and unity are the primary and secondary purposes of sex. Pleasure is a result of sex. (Especially when you do it right.😃 👍 ;)) I first discovered that important point in discussing marriage with people who were in long satisfying marriages. It wasn’t until after I was returning to Church teaching that I found that it was the Church’s position too. We don’t engage in sex *for *pleasure…we engage in sex and it results in pleasure.

Please let me know if you really would like to discuss it. Marital love and Theology of the Body are two of my very favorite topics.
 
Thanks for the explanation.
To be honest with you though, I didn’t understand a thing you typed. I don’t know anything about Greek mythology.
I did understand the part where you said that there are not two hells though. Thanks Be To God. 🙂
Maybe an easier way to understand the problem is through the the problems in translating the Latin word infernus. In English it is translated as Hell, but strictly speaking, it denotes the “place of the dead”. Take a look at the Catholic Encyclopedia article here.
 
Why do most Catholics in the west reject Humanae Vitae?

Are most of these living in sin?

My permanent problem is that most Catholics appear to be heading for hell, either through non-attendance at Sunday Mass or by rejecting the Church’s teaching on sex.

I cannot understand how a loving God can create so many people who, it seems, will end up being punished for all eternity.
**Our Lady at Fatima (1917): “You have seen Hell, where the souls of poor sinners go.”

And later: “Souls go to Hell as snowflakes in a snowstorm.”

Something to ponder…**
 
Why do most Catholics in the west reject Humanae Vitae?

Are most of these living in sin?

My permanent problem is that most Catholics appear to be heading for hell, either through non-attendance at Sunday Mass or by rejecting the Church’s teaching on sex.

I cannot understand how a loving God can create so many people who, it seems, will end up being punished for all eternity.
To answer your question with honesty and charity would take a book. But if I may, I would like to share what little I know through my experience of 30+ years in pastoral care.

In answer to your first question, I believe that materialism and sensationalism have consumed the minds and hearts of many people. People today seem to feel a “moral” obligation to give their children a better life than they had when they were children. This false belief has moved many people to believe that they can only afford a fixed number of children in order to give them what they need to be healthy and happy. In other words, the faith in God’s Divine Providence has been deeply wounded by the sensationalist media.

In onen sense instant communication has done a great deal of harm to society. We are often bombarded by images of starving people and by threats that there the world’s resources are not enough to sustain our families. People have actually bought into these prophecies of doom.

If one looks at a country like the United States one can clearly see thar we have great expanses of land, great natural resources, more money than we know what to do with (as a nation), and more possibilities for educating our children than most countries around the world.

We have also badly administered these resources. When the working man or woman looks at his pocketbook he fears that he will be unable to provide for a large family, because the profits and benefits of these resources do not trickle down equitably to all membes of our society. This triggers fear in people.

Then we have a phenomenon both in Europe and North America, which I call neo-narcisim. The beauty and physical fitness industry is making trillions of dollars by convincing people that they can remain young and beautiful almost indefinitely. People are grabbing on to this new “gospel”. Unfortunately, to preserve this physical well-being parenting has to be sacrificed. Objectively, this is one of the gravest sins in our society, because it is about loving the self more than trusting God and moving along according to God’s plan for us. It is as if man has to take over from God, in order to secure his health, physical well-being and sanity. Nothing could be further from the truth. But some people do not see this. In a sense, maybe their ignorance may be their hope. God has mercy on the ignorant, to a certain degree.

Let’s not forget the extremes of the women’s movement. It was in God’s plan that woman have rights and that her dignity be respected. All we have to do is look at Mary. She made her choice without consulting Joseph and without telling him. Joseph found out about Mary’s pregnancy in a dream, not through Mary. She chose what to do with her body, which was to put it as God’s disposal. The Woman’s movement also wants to promote the right of women to make choices regarding their bodies. But the difference is that the Women’s movement has failed to remind women that they must place their bodies at God’s disposal as did Mary and that this is a choice that no male can make for them or should make for them. It is part of a woman’s dignity to put her body in God’s hands and her innate materntiy.

Are all of these souls going to hell along with those who do not attend mass on Sundays? We do not know this. The Church is always careful to avoid making predictions about any individual’s soul. We too should be careful in that regard. Only God in his mercy knows these things and thus it should remain.

However, the Lord is thirsting for generous souls to bring his invitation to other souls. He calls generous souls to go out and invite outher souls to come to him. He promises that whatever we cannot handle, he will help us handle. Whatever number of children we may have, he will help us find the resources to raise them.

I was in the missions in a Third World nation and I saw starvation before my eyes. I was tempted to get on this train for artificial birth control and sterilization. When I looked at myself and my children I realized that I was causing the starvation. My children had more clothes than they needed. We ate everything that we wanted, even if it was junk food. We had every game system on the market. We had furniture that we really didn’t nee, simply because it looked nice.

The resources that the starving people needed and were looking for were in my home, in our closets, in our family room. I was never so ashamed in my life.

Humanae vitae will only make sense when Catholics begin to detach from things we do not need, our desire to live and be young forever, and our false hope to give our children a better life than what we had. If our lives had been so bad, so many of us would not have turned out so well.

Sometimes I wonder who’s on the fast track to hell, the person who use birth control because of fear and poverty or me because of my attachment to things that can be used to alleviate these fears.

May God have mercy on my soul and allow me to become detached from material things that others need and to bring the good news to others that God wants them to trust in his mercy.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
To answer your question with honesty and charity would take a book. But if I may, I would like to share what little I know through my experience of 30+ years in pastoral care.

In answer to your first question, I believe that materialism and sensationalism have consumed the minds and hearts of many people. People today seem to feel a “moral” obligation to give their children a better life than they had when they were children. This false belief has moved many people to believe that they can only afford a fixed number of children in order to give them what they need to be healthy and happy. In other words, the faith in God’s Divine Providence has been deeply wounded by the sensationalist media.

In onen sense instant communication has done a great deal of harm to society. We are often bombarded by images of starving people and by threats that there the world’s resources are not enough to sustain our families. People have actually bought into these prophecies of doom.

If one looks at a country like the United States one can clearly see thar we have great expanses of land, great natural resources, more money than we know what to do with (as a nation), and more possibilities for educating our children than most countries around the world.

We have also badly administered these resources. When the working man or woman looks at his pocketbook he fears that he will be unable to provide for a large family, because the profits and benefits of these resources do not trickle down equitably to all membes of our society. This triggers fear in people.

Then we have a phenomenon both in Europe and North America, which I call neo-narcisim. The beauty and physical fitness industry is making trillions of dollars by convincing people that they can remain young and beautiful almost indefinitely. People are grabbing on to this new “gospel”. Unfortunately, to preserve this physical well-being parenting has to be sacrificed. Objectively, this is one of the gravest sins in our society, because it is about loving the self more than trusting God and moving along according to God’s plan for us. It is as if man has to take over from God, in order to secure his health, physical well-being and sanity. Nothing could be further from the truth. But some people do not see this. In a sense, maybe their ignorance may be their hope. God has mercy on the ignorant, to a certain degree.

Let’s not forget the extremes of the women’s movement. It was in God’s plan that woman have rights and that her dignity be respected. All we have to do is look at Mary. She made her choice without consulting Joseph and without telling him. Joseph found out about Mary’s pregnancy in a dream, not through Mary. She chose what to do with her body, which was to put it as God’s disposal. The Woman’s movement also wants to promote the right of women to make choices regarding their bodies. But the difference is that the Women’s movement has failed to remind women that they must place their bodies at God’s disposal as did Mary and that this is a choice that no male can make for them or should make for them. It is part of a woman’s dignity to put her body in God’s hands and her innate materntiy.

Are all of these souls going to hell along with those who do not attend mass on Sundays? We do not know this. The Church is always careful to avoid making predictions about any individual’s soul. We too should be careful in that regard. Only God in his mercy knows these things and thus it should remain.

However, the Lord is thirsting for generous souls to bring his invitation to other souls. He calls generous souls to go out and invite outher souls to come to him. He promises that whatever we cannot handle, he will help us handle. Whatever number of children we may have, he will help us find the resources to raise them.

I was in the missions in a Third World nation and I saw starvation before my eyes. I was tempted to get on this train for artificial birth control and sterilization. When I looked at myself and my children I realized that I was causing the starvation. My children had more clothes than they needed. We ate everything that we wanted, even if it was junk food. We had every game system on the market. We had furniture that we really didn’t nee, simply because it looked nice.

The resources that the starving people needed and were looking for were in my home, in our closets, in our family room. I was never so ashamed in my life.

Humanae vitae will only make sense when Catholics begin to detach from things we do not need, our desire to live and be young forever, and our false hope to give our children a better life than what we had. If our lives had been so bad, so many of us would not have turned out so well.

Sometimes I wonder who’s on the fast track to hell, the person who use birth control because of fear and poverty or me because of my attachment to things that can be used to alleviate these fears.

May God have mercy on my soul and allow me to become detached from material things that others need and to bring the good news to others that God wants them to trust in his mercy.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
WOW!!! 👍 Well said!! :clapping:
 
Maybe an easier way to understand the problem is through the the problems in translating the Latin word infernus. In English it is translated as Hell, but strictly speaking, it denotes the “place of the dead”. Take a look at the Catholic Encyclopedia article here.
Ahhhhhh.
Thanks.
I read it.
So the “place of the dead” is hell.

All I know is that I don’t wanna go to hell and burn for eternity. :eek:
 
Jmcrae

You wrote:

Originally Posted by Jmcrae
Before Christ came, everyone went to Hell - no exceptions.

I thought you were a Catholic Christian. If not, this is NOT the teaching of the Church. And this is NOT what is meant in the Creeds.
 
Our Lady at Fatima (1917): "You have seen Hell, where the souls of poor sinners go."

And later: “Souls go to Hell as snowflakes in a snowstorm.”

Something to ponder…
I am concerned with a good, all-powerful God allowing people, whom he created, loved, saved by His Son and knew would be damned, to go to hell for all eternity.

I cannot understand how a God who tolerates this can be considered good and merciful.

Please explain.

Partial answers are free will and peope choose hell.
But providence exists and grace.
 
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