Hypostatic Union and sin

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lelinator said:
If God wants me to do His will, and I have done otherwise, it’s not out of any ill-intent on my part.
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If so then, In Catholic morality, you are in a very good place as long as you remain searching. There is no sin in ignorance unless willful.
CCC#1776 … conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.
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lelinator said:
Would you prefer that I ask you no questions at all? Or is it better that at least I ask?
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No, I am reminding you of the truth that no one asks without some expectation or wish or hope of receiving - you may not like what you have seen to date, but you keep believing we have what you seek. Find your priest.
 
No human must sin. And, in fact, the nearer we are to God or the closer our union with Him, IOW, the less prone we are to sin. That’s a primary distinction between the Old Covenant and the New, where, with the New, a direct, intimate connection or communion with God is to be established first of all, in order to be able to overcome sin. Jesus “simply” possessed this union perfectly. “Apart from Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5
 
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NO, a person is not free to sin in heaven. Where did you get that idea? Heaven is not like this temporal world where one can exist ‘before’, ‘during’, and after an action.

The mere fact of choosing God and heaven at the point of death (and the cessation of ‘time’) means one has freely chosen NEVER to sin. Thus, free will is not compromised, but by that choice freely chosen and lived, one ‘will not’ sin in heaven.
 
John_Martin said:
No, he cannot sin because he is the personification, full-time, of the human speaking in the Psalms: “If I ascend to the heavens, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, You are there.”
He is the fullness of human nature, having no defect as we have (but which defect he cures in us by giving us his Holy Spirit), so, being fully human he has no restlessness to go looking for some other lover, and never will and never could.

We sin due to a defect in our nature, we do not sin because of a non-defective nature simply deciding to do a defective nature’s activities.
Why are you trying to argue that being defective is natural to nature?
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Ok, I got you. So Jesus by creation is a perfect human. Why God did not create all humans perfect? All problem solved.
 
stpurl said:
NO, a person is not free to sin in heaven. Where did you get that idea? Heaven is not like this temporal world where one can exist ‘before’, ‘during’, and after an action.

The mere fact of choosing God and heaven at the point of death (and the cessation of ‘time’) means one has freely chosen NEVER to sin. Thus, free will is not compromised, but by that choice freely chosen and lived, one ‘will not’ sin in heaven.
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So you do nothing in Heaven?
 
Where did you get this idea? Do you think that choosing not to sin for eternity is something passive that ‘stops’ so that you just ‘do nothing?’

Let’s say that you die. You are judged. You choose heaven and God. What do YOU think happens? Do you think OK, it’s March 4 2020 and I died today and God offered me salvation and Heaven. I said yes because I always wanted to check out the place. I went in, decided it was too dull and boring, so I went back and told God I don’t want any part of this. I need to be FREE, that means I need constant CHANGE because if I constantly chose to be the same I wouldn’t be FREE to change!

Um wait. If you hold to the above, you are in fact not free at all. If you MUST change in order to be ‘free’, you don’t have the freedom to ‘not change’ . . .so you’re stuck.

BUT if you have the freedom to choose to remain good forever, you are fully and totally free. You aren’t forced to ‘change’ from the good.
 
stpurl said:
Where did you get this idea? Do you think that choosing not to sin for eternity is something passive that ‘stops’ so that you just ‘do nothing?’

Let’s say that you die. You are judged. You choose heaven and God. What do YOU think happens? Do you think OK, it’s March 4 2020 and I died today and God offered me salvation and Heaven. I said yes because I always wanted to check out the place. I went in, decided it was too dull and boring, so I went back and told God I don’t want any part of this. I need to be FREE, that means I need constant CHANGE because if I constantly chose to be the same I wouldn’t be FREE to change!

Um wait. If you hold to the above, you are in fact not free at all. If you MUST change in order to be ‘free’, you don’t have the freedom to ‘not change’ . . .so you’re stuck.

BUT if you have the freedom to choose to remain good forever, you are fully and totally free. You aren’t forced to ‘change’ from the good.
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You cannot turn back from God in Heaven since that is a sin according to @John_Martin so you are trapped there for eternity. There is no concept of time in eternity so what you experience is frozen.
 
STT said:
You cannot turn back from God in Heaven since that is a sin according to @John_Martin so you are trapped there for eternity. There is no concept of time in eternity so what you experience is frozen.
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If you listen to me there, why do you ignore everything else?
  1. We love God, and our own will refuses freely to turn away from him when in his presence - there are no chains.
  2. We will have our bodies in eternity, so there will be time for us (not for God) as we know him, one knowing at a time for us as he knows us in eternity knowing his eternal self.
 
John_Martin said:
If you listen to me there, why do you ignore everything else?
  1. We love God, and our own will refuses freely to turn away from him when in his presence - there are no chains.
  2. We will have our bodies in eternity, so there will be time for us (not for God) as we know him, one knowing at a time for us as he knows us in eternity knowing his eternal self.
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You don’t have freedom to sin if you cannot sin. Aren’t you getting perfect after perceiving beatific vision?
 
Not so. You are rather experiencing a kind of eternal now. Not frozen at all.

Which also answers your question and worry of ‘doing nothing’. If you are constantly experiencing ‘now’ you are most certainly doing something. And not frozen. Being ‘outside of time’ does not mean being outside of experiencing things.
 
stpurl said:
Not so. You are rather experiencing a kind of eternal now. Not frozen at all.

Which also answers your question and worry of ‘doing nothing’. If you are constantly experiencing ‘now’ you are most certainly doing something. And not frozen. Being ‘outside of time’ does not mean being outside of experiencing things.
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Are you saying that you will be living in a sequence of now?
 
If you choose NOT to sin, you have freedom to not sin.

I think you misunderstand the difference between cannot and will not.

If you choose heaven you are choosing, and will continue to choose, not to sin. That is freedom. You get the choice at death. Because you have moved beyond time, your choice is more free; no longer must you choose ‘sin or not sin’ at every given ‘moment’ of time, you can choose, “sin or not sin’ eternally and as you experience a continuous now in eternity, you are in that ‘timeless now’ constantly continuing that choice.

That’s why there is no movement between heaven and hell.

And it is your choice, which God permits.

Again, you are totally free.

Are you really trying to claim that none of us is ‘free’ unless we can choose to sin?

Wouldn’t you also say that none of us is ‘free’ unless we can choose NOT to sin then?

And wouldn’t you say that if one is constantly choosing not to sin that one is indeed free?
 
stpurl said:
If you choose NOT to sin, you have freedom to not sin.
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Yes.
stpurl said:
I think you misunderstand the difference between cannot and will not.
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No, I am not confused. God cannot sin. Human can sin. Jesus according to @John_Martin cannot sin too because He is a perfect human.
stpurl said:
If you choose heaven you are choosing, and will continue to choose, not to sin. That is freedom. You get the choice at death. Because you have moved beyond time, your choice is more free; no longer must you choose ‘sin or not sin’ at every given ‘moment’ of time, you can choose, “sin or not sin’ eternally and as you experience a continuous now in eternity, you are in that ‘timeless now’ constantly continuing that choice.
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You don’t have the freedom to sin in Heaven.
stpurl said:
That’s why there is no movement between heaven and hell.

And it is your choice, which God permits.

Again, you are totally free.

Are you really trying to claim that none of us is ‘free’ unless we can choose to sin?
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No. I am saying that you are not free to sin in Heaven because you cannot.
stpurl said:
Wouldn’t you also say that none of us is ‘free’ unless we can choose NOT to sin then?
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Sinning is a part of action. If you cannot sin then you do not have freedom to sin. Like God.
stpurl said:
And wouldn’t you say that if one is constantly choosing not to sin that one is indeed free?
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Yes, such a person is free.
 
STT said:
Jesus has human nature so He in principle can sin. God, however, cannot sin so I was wondering how such a union is possible.
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Placing Jesus’ Divine Nature on the Side Burner for a sec,
In His Human Nature - Jesus was Tempted to Sin - and via His Free Will Resisted Sin.
He was Obedient… ergo Sinless.

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EndTimes said:
Placing Jesus’ Divine Nature on the Side Burner for a sec,
In His Human Nature - Jesus was Tempted to Sin - and via His Free Will Resisted Sin.
He was Obedient… ergo Sinless.

_
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No, He didn’t resisted the sin. He cannot sin otherwise we are dealing with a contradiction, a union that can sin and cannot sin at the same time.
 
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