Hypothetical conversion process

[EIF5A]

Is it holy because it’s in Latin or does that just enhance the historicity/tradition? Do people who attend Latin Mass study/understand Latin?

A language that people cannot understand does not seem “simple” to me. It’s kind of like speaking in tongues — it’s great for personal building in faith and if there’s an interpreter, but by itself, does it build the Church?

In fact, it’s very easy to see personality cults arise in certain churches where orators, great rhetoricians, are preaching 30, 40, 50 minutes each Sunday. People come and really measure their experience on the basis of how motivated, how informed and how excited they feel at the end of the sermon.

I read today about St. Francis preaching and how it transformed people. Are people not allowed to feel emotions and desire to change their lives? How long do you think he or St. Paul preached? If a certain person preached to such an effect that he changed lives for God, is it bad to desire to hear him more? (Assuming the message is doctrinally sound.) Also, I’m amused that 30 minutes was included in that list of minutes considered lengthy.

Personally, I would like a church that combines both Catholic solemnity with Protestant zest. There is a time to reflect on the sacrifice of Christ and a time to rejoice and live a rich life according to the will of God. I get the feeling the latter should be not practiced during Catholic worship.

 

[EIF5A]

EIF,

We have gone so far beyond “does my Baptism Count”…in the context of this being your thread…where do you want it to go?..by the way…you be us and we be you…

If it moves you to put up another song, do so…

Alrighty then…

youtube.com/watch?v=C9oHtPAtGv8&list=FL0Jne8pbUMsYJ3Bu3ymDeAQ

Not the best video accompaniment — I just like the song. (Those Catholics not interested in electric guitar and drums should not click.) There are other renditions to this song — Youtube should have others. Perhaps listen to this hearty song when stuck in traffic and ill-will and malicious thoughts creep up. :harp:

“Glory”

Glory, Glory in the highest,
Glory to the Almighty.
Glory to the Lamb of God,
Glory to the Living Word.
Glory to the Lamb. (Repeat)

I sing Glory (Glory) Glory (Glory) Glory,
Glory to the Lamb.
I sing Glory (Glory) Glory (Glory) Glory,
Glory to the Lamb.
I sing Glory to the Lamb.

 

[adf417]

Alrighty then…

youtube.com/watch?v=C9oHtPAtGv8&list=FL0Jne8pbUMsYJ3Bu3ymDeAQ

Not the best video accompaniment — I just like the song. (Those Catholics not interested in electric guitar and drums should not click.) There are other renditions to this song — Youtube should have others. Perhaps listen to this hearty song when stuck in traffic and ill-will and malicious thoughts creep up. :harp:

This song reminds me of being back at the Steubenville youth conference last year. A full weekend of music like this.
youtube.com/watch?v=UQud1LgLPw0

 

[Porknpie]

Alrighty then…

youtube.com/watch?v=C9oHtPAtGv8&list=FL0Jne8pbUMsYJ3Bu3ymDeAQ

Not the best video accompaniment — I just like the song. (Those Catholics not interested in electric guitar and drums should not click.) There are other renditions to this song — Youtube should have others. Perhaps listen to this hearty song when stuck in traffic and ill-will and malicious thoughts creep up. :harp:

The words would have much greater meaning if the songwriter understood that Jesus comes to us in the real presence of the Eucharist. :harp::harp:

 

[EIF5A]

The words would have much greater meaning if the songwriter understood that Jesus comes to us in the real presence of the Eucharist. :harp::harp:

What indicates that the songwriter doesn’t understand that? (The original version isn’t as “lively”.) This issue of “proper” style of worship is so new to me.

 

[EIF5A]

What indicates that the songwriter doesn’t understand that? (The original version isn’t as “lively”.) This issue of “proper” style of worship is so new to me.

Thought about this a little more. Most Protestants don’t believe that the bread and wine (or grape juice) are literally the Body and Blood of Christ. In view of them as being symbolic, I guess the need for musical solemnity during the entire worship service is not there. In our churches, music leading up to partaking of the Body and Blood would be more humble and of the style that evokes meditation on the suffering of Christ. We would pray in silence during this time, not through vocal prayer.

Also, the song posted above would not be sung during Communion. Even I would find that a bit…unique.

(I may have misused the words Communion and Eucharist…)

 

[jmcrae]

J,

I kind of like this one…

I use that one in Youth Group quite often - I’ve never actually sung it at Mass, though, that I recall.

The “I/me” songs are ideal for Youth Group and Sunday School, where the emphasis really is supposed to be on “me and God” - but at Mass, we need to be leaving ourselves at the door, and focusing solely on God.

 

[Porknpie]

What indicates that the songwriter doesn’t understand that? (The original version isn’t as “lively”.) This issue of “proper” style of worship is so new to me.

I don’t know who the songwriter is but here’s what Vineyard Music says about communion. I assume the songwriter subscribes to Vineyard’s theology. Do you have any insights that say otherwise? Would the songwriter mean one thing and have his listeners believe something else?

trinityvineyardchurch.com/us/who-we-are/our-affiliation/vineyard-music

WHAT IS COMMUNION?

In communion we share in proclaiming Jesus’ death: Communion is a picture of Jesus’ sacrifice. Breaking bread symbolizes his body broken for us. Pouring out the cup proclaims his blood poured out for us. “For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” (1 Corinthians 11:26)

In communion we share in the benefits of Christ’s death: “Take eat; this is my body.” (Matthew 26:26) Jesus said this as a metaphor, a picture, symbolizing that his body would be broken for our sins. When we eat the bread and take the cup, we symbolically share in the benefits earned for us by the sacrificial atoning death of Jesus.

So the writer is giving “Glory to the Lamb of God” …the church members are singing the words to his song…and totally missing what Jesus did for us in having his real body and blood present for us in the Eucharist. The bible is clear that he gave us his true body and blood and the early church fathers s& Church say the same thing. The theology of the Eucharist being symbolic did not occur for 1,500+ years. :banghead:

 

[EIF5A]

I don’t know who the songwriter is but here’s what Vineyard Music says about communion. I assume the songwriter subscribes to Vineyard’s theology. Do you have any insights that say otherwise? Would the songwriter mean one thing and have his listeners believe something else?

trinityvineyardchurch.com/us/who-we-are/our-affiliation/vineyard-music

So the writer is giving “Glory to the Lamb of God” …the church members are singing the words to his song…and totally missing what Jesus did for us in having his real body and blood present for us in the Eucharist. :banghead:

Jesus was human and God simultaneously. Does that also extend to the Bread and Wine being both carbohydrates/fermented grape and Flesh and Blood simultaneously?

 

[joe370]

Jesus was human and God simultaneously. Does that also extend to the Bread and Wine being both carbohydrates/fermented grape and Flesh and Blood simultaneously?

Offering up Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity along with carbohydrates/fermented grape would not be an acceptable offering to the Father, wouldn’t you agree? A pure offering would consist of just Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity IMHO.

am not pleased with you,” says the Lord Almighty, “and I will accept no offering from your hands. My name will be great among the nations, from where the sun rises to where it sets. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to me, because my name will be great among the nations,” says the Lord Almighty.

This prophecy has been fulfilled by Jesus the Christ via the Holy Eucharist, which is offered up in every place in the world, just about. Pretty amazing.

 

[Della]

I’m glad to know Catholics think Protestant worship songs are cheap copper imitations compared to authentic gold music passed down through the ages in the real, true, only Catholic Church of Christ. We may put emphasis on different aspects of the Divine, but honestly, this is insulting. Perhaps you didn’t mean to do that, but I always thought Catholics and Protestants are different organs of the same Body, but it’s clear at least some Catholics consider us like tumors or overgrown fingernail.

Okay, I never said any of this, but I sincerely apologize if you thought I meant any of it.

All this time during worship, I was just having a “feel good” moment…

Of course not. You asked about music for the Catholic MASS not music for any kind of church service, Catholic or Protestant. I merely explained that the Mass is special. I went out of my way to say that P&S music is fine for any other religious setting. I said that traditional Protestant hymns have the same greater worthiness since they contain better theological content.

I get the hint that “feelings” are considered immature by Catholics and not of substance, even if that feeling is inspiration on the works of God, shunning the sinful ways of the past, and desiring to follow a path God desires for us. Only via contemplation and tender music can we TRULY understand.

Feelings are fine, but feelings can get old after a while. C. S. Lewis, for example, emphasized the fact that we need to have truth to keep us from sliding into sin because feelings simply aren’t enough. It’s like a honeymoon–it’s fine while it lasts, but then comes the time when the marriage is tested–when the vows the couple took have to sustain them rather than the feelings of first love. St. Paul talks about this and tells us we need to mature in the faith. We come to fuller understanding as we go along, as we grow in faith. This is true for anyone, Catholic or Protestant. Indeed, many Protestant churches are leaving the P&W music behind because it doesn’t have enough spiritual content to be lasting. If it speaks to you, that’s fine. Anyone can listen to that kind of music whenever he pleases, but it’s not suitable for the Mass for the reasons I stated.

 

[Porknpie]

Jesus was human and God simultaneously. Does that also extend to the Bread and Wine being both carbohydrates/fermented grape and Flesh and Blood simultaneously?

EIF -

This is a “necessary” read…come back with any questions.

newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm

Yes, we receive his “body, blood, soul and divinity” in the Eucharist under the appearance of bread and wine. I can only begin to grasp the completeness of the theology and God’s love for us.

(PS…Michael W Smith and Amy Grant are two of my favorites…in the car music…but not at Mass)

 

[EIF5A]

Offering up Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity along with carbohydrates/fermented grape would not be an acceptable offering to the Father, wouldn’t you agree? A pure offering would consist of just Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity IMHO.

am not pleased with you,” says the Lord Almighty, “and I will accept no offering from your hands. My name will be great among the nations, from where the sun rises to where it sets. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to me, because my name will be great among the nations,” says the Lord Almighty.

This prophecy has been fulfilled by Jesus the Christ via the Holy Eucharist, which is offered up in every place in the world, just about. Pretty amazing.

The Flesh and Blood are offerings to God? How can I offer something that does not belong to me or comes from my heart? I thought Bread and Wine were meant for remembrance of the sacrifice of Jesus… Is God displeased if I partake of the Bread and Wine symbolically in remembrance of God’s Sacrifice?

 

[EIF5A]

Feelings are fine, but feelings can get old after a while. C. S. Lewis, for example, emphasized the fact that we need to have truth to keep us from sliding into sin because feelings simply aren’t enough. It’s like a honeymoon–it’s fine while it lasts, but then comes the time when the marriage is tested–when the vows the couple took have to sustain them rather than the feelings of first love. St. Paul talks about this and tells us we need to mature in the faith. We come to fuller understanding as we go along, as we grow in faith. This is true for anyone, Catholic or Protestant. Indeed, many Protestant churches are leaving the P&W music behind because it doesn’t have enough spiritual content to be lasting. If it speaks to you, that’s fine. Anyone can listen to that kind of music whenever he pleases, but it’s not suitable for the Mass for the reasons I stated.

I have now learned that Catholics use music as vocal prayer during Mass — a concept I was not familiar with. To me, prayer was silent meditation (or vocal meditation in the presence of others), and worship was songs of praise to God for His mighty and loving works – two separate things done in the same Sunday service. I think it would be beneficial to not cause a false dichotomy of feelings and truth. Don’t Catholic songs (chants, canticles?) also evoke a sense of calm and peace in the presence of God? Also, not all “P&W” songs employ guitars, drums, pianos, etc, and that’s not ALL that’s sung during service.

I always assumed Mass was just Catholic Sunday service, but it is evident that the intent and focus of Mass is distinct from Protestant services, with the latter not being of Apostolic origin…

In another observation I have made in this short time I’ve been looking into Catholicism, Protestants appear to allow more freedom of expression of worship and life as long as it doesn’t go against Scripture. Catholics seem to value with high regard (perhaps to the level of Scripture because the Tradition is passed down from the directive and authority of Christ?) the “Orthodox” ways.

Two different approaches to honor and worship God. I’m OK with that. But one of my reservations of Catholicism is the belief that THEIR way is the ONLY correct, true way.

 

[joe370]

The Flesh and Blood are offerings to God? How can I offer something that does not belong to me or comes from my heart? I thought Bread and Wine were meant for remembrance of the sacrifice of Jesus… Is God displeased if I partake of the Bread and Wine symbolically in remembrance of God’s Sacrifice?

When a person goes to a catholic Mass or the Divine Liturgy in the EOC, the priest, (along with laity) at the alter, via the Power of God, offers up Jesus’ Body and Blood to the Father. Of course it is also a memorial. Personally, I cannot answer the following question: “Is God displeased if I partake of the Bread and Wine symbolically in remembrance of God’s Sacrifice.”

Here is what a few closest to the apostolic age had to say on the matter:

catholicnewsagency.com/resources/saints/teachings-of-church-fathers/the-eucharist/

 

[TinyButterfly]

Hi, I am a recent convert and wanted to give you the titles of a few books that were very helpful to me and a program you can find on youtube.

Rome Sweet Home by Scott Hahn

The Jewish Roots of the Eucharist:Unlocking the Secrets of The Last Supper by Brant
Pitre and Scott Hahn

The Lamb’s Supper by Scott Hahn

Hail Holy Queen: The Mother of God in the Word of God by Scott Hahn

Surprised by Truth: 11 Converts Give the Biblical and Historical Reasons for Becoming
Catholic by Patrick Madrid

Youtube videos to check out, The Journey Home , there are tons of them online! You can also find these at EWTN online, too. These are Catholic converts telling their stories, many of them Protestant to Catholic converts.

youtube.com/watch?v=BpahDv5gl-M

ewtn.com/multimedia/

Oh, and a terrific blog, Conversion Diary. She was an atheist to Catholic convert and she covers a lot of ground in her blog and answers lot of questions I had about the Catholic Church, even though she was an atheist. She has a great reading list on her site.

conversiondiary.com/

God’s blessings on your journey!

 

[jmcrae]

The Flesh and Blood are offerings to God? How can I offer something that does not belong to me or comes from my heart?

Nothing that we have is worthy or acceptable to God. That’s why Jesus freely offers Himself on the Cross in the place of our unworthy offerings.

I thought Bread and Wine were meant for remembrance of the sacrifice of Jesus…

He makes it very clear, "This IS my body … this IS my blood … " - it is not a symbol - it is the real thing. “Unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you have no life in you.”

Is God displeased if I partake of the Bread and Wine symbolically in remembrance of God’s Sacrifice?

I have no idea - but it is not what Jesus gave us to do. Jesus gives us Himself through the hands of His Catholic priest at Mass. He did not leave any instructions about symbolic bread and wine, or juice, etc.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Flesh and Blood are offerings to God? How can I offer something that does not belong to me or comes from my heart? I thought Bread and Wine were meant for remembrance of the sacrifice of Jesus… Is God displeased if I partake of the Bread and Wine symbolically in remembrance of God’s Sacrifice?

The offering is for you, present in the Tabernacles throughout the world. What’s symbolic? E your on that line again between true and false. Where exactly are you on the line? 50%, 75% 66%? Can you know for sure by your own thinking? Or would you trust none other the Church which bought you through Jesus Christ the Trinity, Incarnation, Hypostatic Union. Sacred Scripture along with a host of other Doctrines through those same councils you pick and choose from?

 

[jmcrae]

But one of my reservations of Catholicism is the belief that THEIR way is the ONLY correct, true way.

There is only one Way, only one Truth, and only one Life - Jesus. If we start making up our own stuff, we depart from Jesus.

Jesus gave us the Holy Tradition. We need to stick with what He gave us, without adding to it, or departing from it.

 

[EIF5A]

The offering is for you, present in the Tabernacles throughout the world. What’s symbolic? E your on that line again between true and false. Where exactly are you on the line? 50%, 75% 66%? Can you know for sure by your own thinking? Or would you trust none other the Church which bought you through Jesus Christ the Trinity, Incarnation, Hypostatic Union. Sacred Scripture along with a host of other Doctrines through those same councils you pick and choose from?

What does that even mean? You can’t be 50% true. There is no gradient.

It is not by my own thinking. It was thinking in the Protestant faith that I was brought up in. Yes, Gary, I like to just go around and make things up. Today, I believe I can jump the Grand Canyon and swim not just the Tiber, but the Indian Ocean.

I sense hostility in your posts. Is that because you perceived hostility in my posts first? Am I not giving enough respect to the Catholic Church?