Hypothetical conversion process

[Porknpie]

What does that even mean? You can’t be 50% true. There is no gradient.

It is not by my own thinking. It was thinking in the Protestant faith that I was brought up in. Yes, Gary, I like to just go around and make things up. Today, I believe I can jump the Grand Canyon and swim not just the Tiber, but the Indian Ocean.

I sense hostility in your posts. Is that because you perceived hostility in my posts first? Am I not giving enough respect to the Catholic Church?

I sense no hostility in Gary Taylor’s threads…just 1:1 talking, adult to adult.

 

[GaryTaylor]

You can’t be 50% true

There it is, so your faced with the same dilemma as all of us. Who do we trust and why?

 

[EIF5A]

There it is, so your faced with the same dilemma as all of us. Who do we trust and why?

My only reservation is: If the Catholic Church has been wrong before and allowed corruption and other sins to persist (not just recently, but throughout history), it is the people that are fallible. If the authority (made up of people) represent Christ, how can I place the Traditions of people (though Saintly and pious, chosen by God) as the only and definitive way of salvation? How can the Apostolic Succession marred in the past be considered on the same footing as Scripture and the Holy Spirit? The Three cannot be incongruous, right?

If people are fallible, how can we trust that they have the right answer all the time if not by evaluating by Scripture to determine what is sound?

 

[GaryTaylor]

My only reservation is: If the Catholic Church has been wrong before and allowed corruption and other sins to persist (not just recently, but throughout history), it is the people that are fallible. If the authority (made up of people) represent Christ, how can I place the Traditions of people (though Saintly and pious, chosen by God) as the only and definitive way of salvation? How can the Apostolic Succession marred in the past be considered on the same footing as Scripture and the Holy Spirit? The Three cannot be incongruous, right?

If people are fallible, how can we trust that they have the right answer all the time if not by evaluating by Scripture to determine what is sound?

Everyone understands this concern. Here’s the thinking here for me, these followers of Christ who truly did establish the Apostolic Church’s, they did so by large through martyrdom. Nevertheless its difficult to deny the Holy Spirit guided these Church’s. Overwhelming odds against their belief.

 

[Della]

I have now learned that Catholics use music as vocal prayer during Mass — a concept I was not familiar with. To me, prayer was silent meditation (or vocal meditation in the presence of others), and worship was songs of praise to God for His mighty and loving works – two separate things done in the same Sunday service. I think it would be beneficial to not cause a false dichotomy of feelings and truth. Don’t Catholic songs (chants, canticles?) also evoke a sense of calm and peace in the presence of God? Also, not all “P&W” songs employ guitars, drums, pianos, etc, and that’s not ALL that’s sung during service.

Any religious song, and many secular songs, as well, can “evoke a sense of calm and peace”. And, there’s nothing wrong with that. We Catholics believe that any thing that has value is a good thing. But we also believe that some things are better than others. Hymns are better for the celebration of the Mass, that’s all–because they are a part of the prayer of the Mass.

I always assumed Mass was just Catholic Sunday service, but it is evident that the intent and focus of Mass is distinct from Protestant services, with the latter not being of Apostolic origin…

Yes, the focus is the consecration and reception of the Holy Eucharist. In doing so we offer God worship of the highest order, in spirit and in truth. Most Protestant services tend to follow a prescribe form, as well–a left over from their Catholic roots. Besides, how many ways can there be to conduct a Christian worship service if it is to remain truly Christian? Just so many.

In another observation I have made in this short time I’ve been looking into Catholicism, Protestants appear to allow more freedom of expression of worship and life as long as it doesn’t go against Scripture. Catholics seem to value with high regard (perhaps to the level of Scripture because the Tradition is passed down from the directive and authority of Christ?) the “Orthodox” ways.

The Church established its form of worship based, in part, on worship in the Jewish synagogues and temple worship. We read Scripture, hear it proclaimed (in the homily), offer prayers, and partake of Holy Communion. That form is still the same but has been codified for the sake of unity, for after all, the Church is in every country in the world which any Catholic might attend and be able to follow along and receive the Eucharist. The Church isn’t strictly an American church, it’s the universal Church.

Two different approaches to honor and worship God. I’m OK with that. But one of my reservations of Catholicism is the belief that THEIR way is the ONLY correct, true way.

I’m afraid that’s not quite right. The Catholic way of conducting our Mass is the correct way for Catholics. We have no say and no interest in telling other faith communities how to conduct their services.

 

[JerryZ]

I know the Catholic Church isn’t big on speaking in tongues (in fact, some may not believe that the gifts are in existence today), but that was my experience. Though I do not have the gift of interpretation, I’m in full control of my mind and body — I am not convulsing on the floor or shouting.

I don’t oppose a public declaration of my faith in the Triune God and the Catholic Church, but to say that only after this declaration will I receive the Holy Spirit is something I don’t think I can go along with.

Ahh! glad to see you interested in learning more. Actually you did receive the Holy Spirit!

Right at your Baptism. If it was done properly and most Protestant denominations do it properly then You, Was infused with the Holy Spirit, and He began to work right then.
Some take longer than others to Hear His calling.

Also the Catholic Church recognized ALL the gifts coming from the Holy Spirit. There was recently “last month” a series in EWTN “Sunday Night Prime” with Fr. Apostoli where he spoke about and explained about them. Check it out maybe it surprises you.

youtube.com/watch?v=BttdAJ_bbFU

I will continue to pray with and for you!

 

[Della]

My only reservation is: If the Catholic Church has been wrong before and allowed corruption and other sins to persist (not just recently, but throughout history), it is the people that are fallible.

The Church has never been wrong and allowed corruption, as you mean it here. Jesus never promised his bishops would be impeccable. Church leaders have made mistakes in conduct and have not been as vigilant as they ought to have been, but the Church is both the Bride of Christ and his Body. In it’s human nature it is made up of flawed human beings, but in its spiritual nature it is perfect. This is a mystery, just as Christ being both God and man is a mystery, but still true, nonetheless.

If the authority (made up of people) represent Christ, how can I place the Traditions of people (though Saintly and pious, chosen by God) as the only and definitive way of salvation? How can the Apostolic Succession marred in the past be considered on the same footing as Scripture and the Holy Spirit? The Three cannot be incongruous, right?

The authority of the Church lies in the promises of Christ, not in the fallibility of men. The revelations of God to the prophets and the Apostles are truth because God revealed them not because men received them. If we were to go by your reasoning, we could trust nothing from either the NT or the OT–the Bible would be no more reliable than the Sacred Tradition from which it came. Apostolic Succession has never been “marred” merely because some of those holding that office have been marred. It is the office that is protected from error. For example, when Nixon was impeached, did that mean the office of POTUS was corrupt and needed to be replace by something else? Of course not. We merely replaced the man holding that office.

If people are fallible, how can we trust that they have the right answer all the time if not by evaluating by Scripture to determine what is sound?

But Scripture was written by men, as well. It is the Holy Spirit who leads the Church into all truth in matters of faith and morals, and the Holy Spirit cannot be wrong. Men in the Church may violate those truths, but the truths remain because they are God’s truths, not men’s.

What the Church says about itself is that the fullness of truth subsists within it. This means that it recognizes that truth is not the sole property of the Church, but rather that all the truth necessary for salvation resides in the Church. Other faith bodies have truth, not all of it, but some and many of their members will be saved, just as many Catholics, but not all, will be saved. Catholics recognize and encourage truth wherever we find it, hoping to bring people into the fullness of the truth and so ensure they have all they need for salvation.

 

[EIF5A]

I guess I’m still struggling to separate the office of the Church (intangible) from the people that fill that office (physical, tangible).

“Though the office is Divinely authorized, the people, through human imperfection, may be fallible.” — Is that a fair, Catholically-approved sentence?

 

[EIF5A]

Ahh! glad to see you interested in learning more. Actually you did receive the Holy Spirit!

Right at your Baptism. If it was done properly and most Protestant denominations do it properly then You, Was infused with the Holy Spirit, and He began to work right then.
Some take longer than others to Hear His calling.

Also the Catholic Church recognized ALL the gifts coming from the Holy Spirit. There was recently “last month” a series in EWTN “Sunday Night Prime” with Fr. Apostoli where he spoke about and explained about them. Check it out maybe it surprises you.

youtube.com/watch?v=BttdAJ_bbFU

I will continue to pray with and for you!

I was infant baptized — baptized again in high school. But my life was anything but Christ-like. Perhaps a seed of faith had been planted, but nothing grew in the arid ground. Thankfully, it did not die but survived by the grace of God. I would like to be baptized again if possible (or confirmation?), but I’m still searching for which tradition God leads me to.

 

[jmcrae]

I was infant baptized — baptized again in high school. But my life was anything but Christ-like. Perhaps a seed of faith had been planted, but nothing grew in the arid ground. Thankfully, it did not die but survived by the grace of God. I would like to be baptized again if possible (or confirmation?), but I’m still searching for which tradition God leads me to.

Or a good Confession with Sacramental Absolution.

 

[Porknpie]

I guess I’m still struggling to separate the office of the Church (intangible) from the people that fill that office (physical, tangible).

“Though the office is Divinely authorized, the people, through human imperfection, may be fallible.” — Is that a fair, Catholically-approved sentence?

EIF -

Here’s the milk and meat:

Plenty of sinners in every church, Catholic included Even the Pope goes to confession…and there is an understanding and transparency that there have been some Popes that have sinned pretty good.

However, Christ protects the Church when teaching on faith or morals.

 

[Porknpie]

I was infant baptized — baptized again in high school. But my life was anything but Christ-like. Perhaps a seed of faith had been planted, but nothing grew in the arid ground. Thankfully, it did not die but survived by the grace of God. I would like to be baptized again if possible (or confirmation?), but I’m still searching for which tradition God leads me to.

EIF,

In what church(s) were you baptized in? If you were baptized in the trinitarian formula, with the correct form, matter and intention, you do not need to be baptized again as you were already through your baptism, baptized into the Catholic church.

“Baptism leaves an indelible (permanent) mark on the soul and there is no way nor any reason that one could be re-baptized.”

catholic.com/tracts/trinitarian-baptism

 

[adf417]

I guess I’m still struggling to separate the office of the Church (intangible) from the people that fill that office (physical, tangible).

“Though the office is Divinely authorized, the people, through human imperfection, may be fallible.” — Is that a fair, Catholically-approved sentence?

God bless you EIF as you are making a good case study for online RCIA. I have often thought there is a place for online RCIA but I’m quickly understanding its flaws. As good as the apologists are here on CAF I can see many questions being answered here in a short, succinct manner that seem to leave out much of the meat in the teachings of the Church.

As was brought up earlier, I too encourage you to enroll in the RCIA program next door. Even at this late date you would probably get more out of it than the snippets you are getting here on CAF. Nothing wrong with the questions you are asking, and please continue, but know there is a formal instruction program the Church has that is designed to thoroughly teach its truth.

Peace be with you always!!!

 

[Della]

I guess I’m still struggling to separate the office of the Church (intangible) from the people that fill that office (physical, tangible).

“Though the office is Divinely authorized, the people, through human imperfection, may be fallible.” — Is that a fair, Catholically-approved sentence?

Yes.

Since you have little experience of the Church it’s not surprising that you struggle with certain ideas. I too struggled. I lost sleep and wrestled like Jacob with the angel until the angel touched me and ended my struggles and I accept by faith the truths I had struggled with. No one can ever give another 100% certainty about God, but faith fills in for what we cannot know. The saying “You have to believe to see” is true. Continue to pray and attend Mass and ask questions and God will lead you where you should be.

 

[EIF5A]

EIF,

In what church(s) were you baptized in? If you were baptized in the trinitarian formula, with the correct form, matter and intention, you do not need to be baptized again as you were already through your baptism, baptized into the Catholic church.

“Baptism leaves an indelible (permanent) mark on the soul and there is no way nor any reason that one could be re-baptized.”

catholic.com/tracts/trinitarian-baptism

They were both Presbyterian, although the latter was not officially affiliated with a formal denominational organization. They were both in the Trinitarian formula.

 

[jmcrae]

They were both Presbyterian, although the latter was not officially affiliated with a formal denominational organization. They were both in the Trinitarian formula.

The first one would most likely count as the valid one, in that case, since no one can be baptized twice. (The second or subsequent times, nothing happens, since you are already a citizen of God’s Kingdom.)

 

[Porknpie]

God bless you EIF as you are making a good case study for online RCIA. I have often thought there is a place for online RCIA but I’m quickly understanding its flaws. As good as the apologists are here on CAF I can see many questions being answered here in a short, succinct manner that seem to leave out much of the meat in the teachings of the Church.

As was brought up earlier, I too encourage you to enroll in the RCIA program next door. Even at this late date you would probably get more out of it than the snippets you are getting here on CAF. Nothing wrong with the questions you are asking, and please continue, but know there is a formal instruction program the Church has that is designed to thoroughly teach its truth.

Peace be with you always!!!

AD -

To your point…and perhaps I am the one too short…conversion is a process, a journey, guided by the Holy Spirit working through us. IMHO, it’s not as simple as here’s my questions and here’s the answers. RCIA is terrific, as it takes ~8 months to go through with a lot of time for questions, answers, discernment & prayer. At the same time, for most if not all, it’s uplifting, emotional, rewarding and fulfilling …to name a few words. And, for nearly all, it’s a journey of faith that can not be duplicated easily in an on-line format.

I would always recommend meeting with the local Catholic priest if you have an interest in learning more about RCIA and the Catholic faith. One more thing, there is no commitment going through RCIA. You can learn, discern and decide … with no pressure.

 

[EIF5A]

AD -

RCIA is terrific, as it takes ~8 months to go through with a lot of time for questions, answers, discernment & prayer.

I think the priest (or whoever is in charge) will definitely have his patience tested by me…

8 months is about the amount of time I have until the end of graduate school. Perhaps I will get my degree and become Catholic at the same time…? :ehh:

 

[Porknpie]

I think the priest (or whoever is in charge) will definitely have his patience tested by me…

8 months is about the amount of time I have until the end of graduate school. Perhaps I will get my degree and become Catholic at the same time…? :ehh:

Go meet with the Priest. They give their life to Christ so that you can come and test them. It’s what they wake up, live and breathe for. You can tell your priest that Pork said so and they will agree.

 

[adf417]

AD -

To your point…and perhaps I am the one too short…conversion is a process, a journey, guided by the Holy Spirit working through us. IMHO, it’s not as simple as here’s my questions and here’s the answers. RCIA is terrific, as it takes ~8 months to go through with a lot of time for questions, answers, discernment & prayer. At the same time, for most if not all, it’s uplifting, emotional, rewarding and fulfilling …to name a few words. And, for nearly all, it’s a journey of faith that can not be duplicated easily in an on-line format.

I would always recommend meeting with the local Catholic priest if you have an interest in learning more about RCIA and the Catholic faith. One more thing, there is no commitment going through RCIA. You can learn, discern and decide … with no pressure.

Pork you are doing a jam up job here on CAF. I can only imagine how much better your answers would come across in a classroom atmosphere. You know - with the hand waving and other gestures…I never learned how to talk well without the use of my hands.

Peace Brother!!!