I’m an atheist. My Catholic father thinks I’ll go to heaven

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Who spoke more about hell and it’s consequences than anyone else in scripture? Jesus, the one who judges EVERYONE.

He did, but who was his audience? I would have to go back through Scripture and check, but didn’t he mention hell when rebuking the Pharisees? Whereas to other people he did not mention hell, perhaps because they had humbled themselves or been humbled.

I have seen throughout the New Testament different methods of evangelization and that it would depend on who is on the receiving end.

May I suggest, Think further about that point you make…

If you use that argument, then bottom line, the whole OT & NT isn’t worth following because it was NOT WRITTEN SPECIFICALLY TO US but only to the people of that day?

Jesus was NOT restricting THAT answer He gave to only s certain group of people. As God, He looks at humanity as a whole, and as Judge of everyone, He gave that answer.

From the CCC on that point Jesus makes few are saved

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."

That does NOT restrict what Jesus said to only the Pharisees. It is to EVERYONE

 

[LeahPaz]

If you use that argument, then bottom line, the whole OT & NT isn’t worth following because it was NOT WRITTEN SPECIFICALLY TO US but only to the people of that day ?

Jesus was NOT restricting THAT answer He gave to only s certain group of people. As God, He looks at humanity as a whole, and as Judge of everyone, He gave that answer.

That does NOT restrict what Jesus said to only the Pharisees. It is to EVERYONE

Ok. I understand the Pharisees of today to be any person who is self-righteous in their heart, proud, and thinks they are going to heaven because they do this and that, appearing righteous on the outside to others… but inwardly hating others (and I personally would say this comes from self hatred as well)

Yes, it’s true that we will all be judged. This does apply to everyone. Being warned of hell is good, especially those who are convicted of their sins by the Holy Spirit. I guess otherwise it falls on deaf ears.

But I was wondering in how all this applies to evangelizing to people. Should they hear about hell right away? or later on? What if they already feel like a terrible sinner and have been suffering so much that it humbles them to the point that they need to hear of the mercy of God. I do believe that justice and love go hand in hand, but this took me a while to understand.

Think about the woman who was about to be stoned to death, then Jesus said to those who were going to stone her that whoever is without sin, cast the first stone… they all left. Then he told her to stop sinning after he showed her mercy and saying “neither do I condemn you”… but clearly she must not have needed to hear about hell because she was already humbled before Jesus.

To wrap this up, I have several atheist friends and family and it seems like… I don’t know what to say. Nothing I say to them seems to work. I just keep praying for the grace of God to open their eyes.

I also don’t want to push them away.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

If you use that argument, then bottom line, the whole OT & NT isn’t worth following because it was NOT WRITTEN SPECIFICALLY TO US but only to the people of that day ?

Jesus was NOT restricting THAT answer He gave to only s certain group of people. As God, He looks at humanity as a whole, and as Judge of everyone, He gave that answer.

That does NOT restrict what Jesus said to only the Pharisees. It is to EVERYONE

Ok. I understand the Pharisees of today to be any person who is self-righteous in their heart, proud, and thinks they are going to heaven because they do this and that, appearing righteous on the outside to others… but inwardly hating others (and I personally would say this comes from self hatred as well)

Yes, it’s true that we will all be judged. This does apply to everyone. Being warned of hell is good, especially those who are convicted of their sins by the Holy Spirit. I guess otherwise it falls on deaf ears.

But I was wondering in how all this applies to evangelizing to people. Should they hear about hell right away? or later on? What if they already feel like a terrible sinner and have been suffering so much that it humbles them to the point that they need to hear of the mercy of God. I do believe that justice and love go hand in hand, but this took me a while to understand.

Here’s an answer I used from Ez 3 as an example,( with some paraphrasing on my part ) in this post. HERE

I would just say, We need to always give the whole truth. Not a redacted version

LeahPaz:

Think about the woman who was about to be stoned to death, then Jesus said to those who were going to stone her that whoever is without sin, cast the first stone… they all left. Then he told her to stop sinning after he showed her mercy and saying “neither do I condemn you”… but clearly she must not have needed to hear about hell because she was already humbled before Jesus.

To wrap this up, I have several atheist friends and family and it seems like… I don’t know what to say. Nothing I say to them seems to work. I just keep praying for the grace of God to open their eyes.

I also don’t want to push them away.

Huge relief here, Nowhere in scripture does it say we have to be successful in our defense. NOR are we to beat people over the head who don’t agree. We give the information, best we can, and give qualified references to show the proof of what we say is true, and be an example in our own lives of that truth we believe in. That’s all we can do.

I don’t know of a single better example.to use in this case. Not only did Jesus not go after those who disagreed with Him, AND left Him, He didn’t go after them. He let them go . IMV that’s one of the scariest passages in scripture.

 

[steve-b]

poche:

Those who are most in danger of going to Hell are those who don’t believe in its existence. - St Alphonsus Ligouri.

Simply hilarious, and in dire contradiction that people “choose” to go hell! How can one “choose” an option, if one does not believe in its existence?

Yet

Isn’t not believing in something a decision one makes, a choice one makes?

 

[Pattylt]

Steve-b: Isn’t not believing in something a decision one makes, a choice one makes?

Could you explain this to me? How do I choose to believe in something if I don’t believe it? I can not choose to not believe in gravity. I can not choose to believe in fairies…I just don’t. If belief is based on justified knowledge and someone doesn’t have justified knowledge, one will not believe. Is there something I’m missing?

 

[Atreju]

Its complicated. Ever try arguing with a flat earther or young earth creationist? Not saying nonchristians are in the same league but I think there is a willful element to what a person believes.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Simply hilarious, and in dire contradiction that people “choose” to go hell! How can one “choose” an option, if one does not believe in its existence?

I could say, I choose never to have an accident and break my leg, but some choices are not ours to make.

 

[steve-b]

Steve-b: Isn’t not believing in something a decision one makes, a choice one makes?

Parrylt:
Could you explain this to me? How do I choose to believe in something if I don’t believe it? I can not choose to not believe in gravity. I can not choose to believe in fairies…I just don’t. If belief is based on justified knowledge and someone doesn’t have justified knowledge, one will not believe. Is there something I’m missing?

you could look at a piece of furniture, made by hand, and then deny some one made it. That’s your decision to make.

 

[Pattylt]

That’s a bad example as I have justified knowledge that it was built by a human…that’s why I’m asking! I believe things based on my justified knowledge. If I don’t think I have justified knowledge, I can’t make myself believe it. Your statement seems to be saying that I can go against my knowledge and make myself believe it anyway?

 

[Atreju]

This is an awful argument. Do you look at a rock and also say someone made it?

 

[steve-b]

That’s a bad example as I have justified knowledge that it was built by a human…that’s why I’m asking! I believe things based on my justified knowledge. If I don’t think I have justified knowledge, I can’t make myself believe it. Your statement seems to be saying that I can go against my knowledge and make myself believe it anyway?

Okay try this example:

Given you’re agnostic and Jewish, here’s a 100% Jewish example with Jewish non believers.

Jesus in the flesh is 100% Jewish, and 100% God the Son.
His disciples spoken of here ( who ultimately don’t believe) are also Jewish

For space I give this episode as an example HERE His “disciples” by definition were (His close followers) and saw His miracles. Still They said to His face, when instructed on the Eucharist, they don’t believe what He taught. They left Him never to follow again. That is a choice they made in spite of the evidence that what He says is truth. If God in the flesh won’'t force one to believe who even argues to His face, then that shows how powerful God thinks choice is. That’s what makes us responsible for, and receive good or bad results for, what we choose. After all He gave us that power to choose.

 

[steve-b]

This is an awful argument. Do you look at a rock and also say someone made it?

The rock is an effect. Rocks don’t cause themselves. Who was the cause?

 

[Atreju]

Ever hear of geology?

 

[steve-b]

Ever hear of geology?

Geology doesn’t answer the question. Who caused what geology studies?

 

[FranciscoN2001]

Most athiests fall under stubbornness, hate to say it

 

[Atreju]

“Who” is begging the question.

 

[steve-b]

“Who” is begging the question.

Actually begging an answer for the cause

 

[Atreju]

Gravity, friction, pressure, etc.

 

[steve-b]

Gravity, friction, pressure, etc.

All “effects”.

 

[Atreju]

Just because something is an effect, that doesn’t mean what effected it was a person. That doesn’t follow logically and should not be a basis for belief.