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Pattylt
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I read it many years ago and honestly don’t remember it. Thanks! I’ll find a copy and read it again. If you’d like, I can PM you when I’m done.
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SunshineGrandma
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Yes, I would like that.
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poche
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The day will come when we will all find out.
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steve-b
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Yep!..
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steve-b
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The wager is simple. One is either right or one is wrong. What is one willing to bet?WillPhillips:
Pascal’s wager assumes a God willing to reward only those who believe without proof. Whereas the alternative seems more likely, that any God engaging deliberately in “divine hiddenness” is doing so to weed out the gullible. After all, they’re also the most likely to be fooled by false gods, and nobody wants someone else taking credit for their own work.
Hence, as with Pascal, if there is no such God, then believing or disbelieving entails only opportunity costs. But, contra Pascal, if there is such a God, it’s the atheists, and the atheists alone, who will be invited into paradise.
I had a similar situation to your own with a friend who counted herself OSAS, “once saved, always saved.” She used this to justify believing that I, as a former Christian, was destined for heaven as well.
She died last year, but before she did, she made me a promise. If we’re both wrong, she’ll save me a seat by the fire.
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holytext
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Your dad is flat out wrong.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. - Mark 16:16
If you do not get saved, you will burn in hell forever. I suggest you pray to God and get saved.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. - Mark 16:16
If you do not get saved, you will burn in hell forever. I suggest you pray to God and get saved.
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Paytheon
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Elisheva
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I don’t believe that anyone can say with certainty where you’ll be. Man spends too much time trying to figure out what God will do rather than doing what He says.
I have been in a similar position. I was not an atheist but definitely wrestling with questions about God and the rest. I ended up at a Conservative synagogue. It was a place a peace where I could work through my questions and do some soul searching without pressure or arguments.
Their love and grace were important elements of my homecoming. I used to teach in the Alpha program and forbid my partners from impressing their beliefs on others for this reason. While they mean well most prohibit the individual from drawing their own conclusions and many fall away later on. The Spirit does the work. He prepares the soil to receive the message. Not man.
Our group included a number of homeless men. I used to converse with someone in my neighborhood but the pastor wasn’t aware. My hands-off grace-filled approach (with lots of prayer) resulted in 9/10 finding permanent homes and employment. Confessions of faith from all. One foregoing the occult and another giving up alcohol and gambling. He was addicted to both.
Love covers. I don’t have answers for you but I have infinite trust that if you decide to seek the truth a path will be given to you to find it.
I have been in a similar position. I was not an atheist but definitely wrestling with questions about God and the rest. I ended up at a Conservative synagogue. It was a place a peace where I could work through my questions and do some soul searching without pressure or arguments.
Their love and grace were important elements of my homecoming. I used to teach in the Alpha program and forbid my partners from impressing their beliefs on others for this reason. While they mean well most prohibit the individual from drawing their own conclusions and many fall away later on. The Spirit does the work. He prepares the soil to receive the message. Not man.
Our group included a number of homeless men. I used to converse with someone in my neighborhood but the pastor wasn’t aware. My hands-off grace-filled approach (with lots of prayer) resulted in 9/10 finding permanent homes and employment. Confessions of faith from all. One foregoing the occult and another giving up alcohol and gambling. He was addicted to both.
Love covers. I don’t have answers for you but I have infinite trust that if you decide to seek the truth a path will be given to you to find it.
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Gorgias
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There we go. Fixed that for ya. You’re welcome. 
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steve-b
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Since humans are both body(mortal) and soul (immortal), then we are already immortal from conception. The soul can’t die. It lives forever, (memory intellect and will) fully intact forever. It’s true our body (Mortal side) ceases to exist …temporarily. However, Body reunites to the soul at the resurrection of the dead at the end of time. Where the soul was since death of the body occurred, then both body and soul reunite and are either in heaven or hell. Purgatory ceases to exist because there are no more births or deaths. Those at the time who are in purgatory go to heaven.
I know you don’t believe in this, but then that’s also part of one’s wager, the bet, … true?
I know you don’t believe in this, but then that’s also part of one’s wager, the bet, … true?
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Wannano
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Do those souls who would have gone to purgatory had the person died before the final resurrection go to heaven in an unclean state or do they only get hell when the resurrection happens?
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steve-b
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As Revelations teaches nothing unclean enters itsteve-b:
Do those souls who would have gone to purgatory had the person died before the final resurrection go to heaven in an unclean state or do they only get hell when the resurrection happens?
As for Purgatory, and the passage just linked to, a person who is in the book of life, goes to heaven after they die, whether purgatory is first or a straight shot to heaven, THEY go to heaven. Only THEY (in the book of life) go to heaven. All others don’t.
That doesn’t mean God capriciously sends anyone to hell and keeps THEM out of the book of life because that’s what He wanted to do from the beginning. God desires all to be saved. We OTOH God gave us ALL free will. And our choices have consequences. God knows before the foundation of the world, what everyone’s final choice is.
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Wannano
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I think I understand your answer although it didn’t exactly answer my query. I understand the Catholic position to be: only those whose name is written in the Book of Life will ultimately go to heaven but most will go there via purgatory to rid the soul of the stain of sin which cleanses it and makes it clean for entrance into heaven. My question deals with the millions of people in the resurrection whose soul needs cleansing but there is no purgatory anymore. How do those souls get clean to enter heaven without purgatory?Wannano:
As Revelations teaches nothing unclean enters itsteve-b:
Do those souls who would have gone to purgatory had the person died before the final resurrection go to heaven in an unclean state or do they only get hell when the resurrection happens?
As for Purgatory, and the passage just linked to, a person who is in the book of life, goes to heaven after they die, whether purgatory is first or a straight shot to heaven, THEY go to heaven. Only THEY (in the book of life) go to heaven. All others don’t.
That doesn’t mean God capriciously sends anyone to hell and keeps THEM out of the book of life because that’s what He wanted to do from the beginning. God desires all to be saved. We OTOH God gave us ALL free will. And our choices have consequences. God knows before the foundation of the world, what everyone’s final choice is.
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steve-b
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There maybe some confusion here
Purgatory doesn’t ultimately save everyone.
Re: Purgatory (footnotes at the end)
[1031] The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
Footnotes:
606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439)
S 1304; Council of Trent (1563)S 1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336)S 1000.607 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
1 cor 3:15 , 1Pet 1:7
608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial . 4,39
L 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31In short
Anyone who dies in mortal sin doesn’t go to purgatory. Mortal sin mentioned in scripture. They who die in that sin go to hell. Purgatory is only for those who die in a state of grace ( no mortal sin on the soul at death ) and thereby need final purification before heaven.
Where does it come from, that those who die in “mortal sin” go to hell?
Some of many passages that describe mortal sins and the consequence which is why they are called (mortal / grave / deadly). Hell is the consequence
Galatians 5: 19 - 21
Ephesians 5:3-5
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
For added info
Re: the book of life from scripture
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meltzerboy2
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Quite an evolution in your thinking, JC. Or was that gnawing doubt always there, as in my case, and, I’m sure, that of many others, who won’t even admit it to themselves? Maybe too much time on CAF is the cause! No doubt you and I will continue to evolve.
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PetraG
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Which is to say the Church teaches that a sin that is (a) serious enough and (b) sufficiently understood with respect to its gravity and (c ) chosen without undue pressure which would mitigate even calling the driving decision behind the action a moral “choice” will lead to eternal death if it is not repented of, which is why it is called “mortal.” The Church also allows that humans cannot place a limit on the Almighty with regards to what opportunities there will be for salutary repentance at the time of death.
This is why the Church does not pronounce any particular person to be among the damned: that is, there are real factors concerning what makes a violation of the commandments into a total and final break from the boundaries required for sharing of the divine life that we cannot know who died in a state of unrepented mortal sin.
The Church instead teaches what violations of divine law are severe enough to be mortal sins and what means are available for repentance and amendment of life. The Church is given the office of teaching and dispensing the sacraments, since following the commandments requires the gift of grace. The office of making final judgments, however, is reserved to God alone.
In other words, OP, the father cannot say with certainty that he himself will go to heaven or hell, let alone whether anyone else will. If he is teaching that it is not a serious sin to reject God when one has the grace to accept God, he is teaching incorrectly. Do not believe it. It is possible, however, that he trying to teach the concept of invincible ignorance, but doing it poorly.
Yes, it is possible that someone who in spite of physically having heard the Gospel but never professing belief in God while on their sojourn on earth (or even someone who never came to believe there even is a sojourn, save the one taken on earth!) could come to this awareness at the time of death and have a good-faith willingness to believe and conform to whatever is true converted into saving faith at death.
OP: Resolve to pursue the truth, to believe what is true and to conform your life to what you have found to be true. There isn’t anything else you can do.
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steve-b
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All true.steve-b:
Which is to say the Church teaches that a sin that is (a) serious enough and (b) sufficiently understood with respect to its gravity and (c ) chosen without undue pressure which would mitigate even calling the driving decision behind the action a moral “choice” will lead to eternal death if it is not repented of, which is why it is called “mortal.” The Church also allows that humans cannot place a limit on the Almighty with regards to what opportunities there will be for salutary repentance at the time of death.
YET
when Jesus was asked is it true that only a few are saved, why did Jesus not reject that and instead He validated that only a few are saved ?
AND the WHY?
Jesus further explained
And knowing that, in advance, it didn’t change His answer.
PetrsG:
All true.
That said ,
getting past the mental gymnastic games people try and play to avoid guilt for what they’ve done, by ignorance or what have you, the Church writes clearly about that HERE
Sounds like some questions need asking and answered from that exchange
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PetraG
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I’d say that it is true the difficulty seems to be “we can’t say they go to hell, so they probably go to heaven” or “we can’t say they go to heaven, so they probably go to hell.”
No. We don’t know what makes a person culpable for failing to do what is right, but we do know what is right and we do know that doing the right is meant for our ultimate happiness–for beatitude. We can’t know every single extraordinary length God will go to in order to save a soul, but we do know the example of extraordinary lengths meant to provide the ordinary means of salvation, which is the Incarnation and Pascal Mystery, which leads us to believe in Jesus Christ, to be baptized into his Body, and to make use of the sacraments in this life as the source of grace for a life filled with the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit, meant both for our eternal happiness and the glory of God. We know at the very least that none of us who reach eternal life will ever look back and wish we had loved the Lord later than we did or less than we did. If we fail to encourage someone to believe and embrace the joy of following the Lord right now, we fail in charity even if the Almighty does not allow our failure to lead to the damnation of the particular souls whom we fail.
No. We don’t know what makes a person culpable for failing to do what is right, but we do know what is right and we do know that doing the right is meant for our ultimate happiness–for beatitude. We can’t know every single extraordinary length God will go to in order to save a soul, but we do know the example of extraordinary lengths meant to provide the ordinary means of salvation, which is the Incarnation and Pascal Mystery, which leads us to believe in Jesus Christ, to be baptized into his Body, and to make use of the sacraments in this life as the source of grace for a life filled with the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit, meant both for our eternal happiness and the glory of God. We know at the very least that none of us who reach eternal life will ever look back and wish we had loved the Lord later than we did or less than we did. If we fail to encourage someone to believe and embrace the joy of following the Lord right now, we fail in charity even if the Almighty does not allow our failure to lead to the damnation of the particular souls whom we fail.
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steve-b
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While we are on this side of eternity, we know that we must have faith hope and charity. On the other side of this life, faith and hope are gone. We see things as they really are. As the apostle taught, for those who achieve blessedness, all that is left is Charity… LOVE
Those in hell there is no faith hope or charity.
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poche
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I hope for your sake that in your case your father is right.
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