S
steve-b
Guest
Effects don’t make themselves. Give me the cause …
- Status
A
Atreju
Guest
Could be anything. Doesn’t have to be a God.
S
steve-b
Guest
Then show me the cause
P
Pattylt
Guest
Did those that walk away believe 100% that He was God the son? Obviously not. So it was a matter of not feeling they had sufficient knowledge to accept his claim. Others did believe it. They felt they had sufficient knowledge to believe. That’s what I’m trying to say…someone who believes in something feels that they have sufficient knowledge to believe it (whatever it is) while those that don’t feel that they have sufficient knowledge, don’t believe or just accept “it” provisionally. I can’t just “make” myself believe something I don’t believe…and I’ve tried. All I did was lie to myself for a bit.
S
steve-b
Guest
Okay,steve-b:
Did those that walk away believe 100% that He was God the son? Obviously not. So it was a matter of not feeling they had sufficient knowledge to accept his claim. Others did believe it. They felt they had sufficient knowledge to believe. That’s what I’m trying to say…someone who believes in something feels that they have sufficient knowledge to believe it (whatever it is) while those that don’t feel that they have sufficient knowledge, don’t believe or just accept “it” provisionally. I can’t just “make” myself believe something I don’t believe…and I’ve tried. All I did was lie to myself for a bit.
I’ll just say
From scripture, NOT ME, paraphrased,
, Faith ( Believe) in God, is a grace, a free gift from God, not ourselves… God already stacked the deck in His favor. He already planted Himself in each person before they are even born. If one feels they have problems in connecting with God, maybe through persistent sin, ask God for that gift of faith, and truly mean it, God won’t deny the gift.+
The only realities there are, that covers everything that is, can be summed up in Jesus statement "spirit and life"as in the natural and the supernatural. One can’t grasp the supernatural portion of that without faith. Ask for it.
Last edited:
P
Pattylt
Guest
Steve, I have. Over and over again. For years. I left faith kicking and screaming. I didn’t want to lose my faith, never asked to lose it, tried looking at other faiths, tried to fake it til I make. Not everyone that doesn’t have faith wanted to be faithless. I still have no answer for what I went through. I still ask. I still try…but I just don’t or can’t or won’t believe…take your pick. I was blindsided by my loss of faith and it was traumatic.
I think I’ve derailed the thread enough. You may PM me if you want to continue. Thank you for the discussion, though. I do appreciate it!
I think I’ve derailed the thread enough. You may PM me if you want to continue. Thank you for the discussion, though. I do appreciate it!
S
steve-b
Guest
Allow me to make one suggestion. It’s not from me but St Peter.
Faith as you know is not a receive once and done deal. It takes work as you also know.
That said
have you tried adding to your faith the following 7 attributes in ever increasing amounts
2 Pet 1:
5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 Forif these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body,[d] to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body[e] will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.[f] 17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son,[g] with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
[snip for space]
Under Emperor Nero, Peter was crucified upside down on Vatican Hill.
J
Juvenal
Guest
Pascal’s wager assumes a God willing to reward only those who believe without proof. Whereas the alternative seems more likely, that any God engaging deliberately in “divine hiddenness” is doing so to weed out the gullible. After all, they’re also the most likely to be fooled by false gods, and nobody wants someone else taking credit for their own work.
Hence, as with Pascal, if there is no such God, then believing or disbelieving entails only opportunity costs. But, contra Pascal, if there is such a God, it’s the atheists, and the atheists alone, who will be invited into paradise.
I had a similar situation to your own with a friend who counted herself OSAS, “once saved, always saved.” She used this to justify believing that I, as a former Christian, was destined for heaven as well.
She died last year, but before she did, she made me a promise. If we’re both wrong, she’ll save me a seat by the fire.
P
poche
Guest
Not believing in the existence of Hell doesn’t cause it to not exist. For example, the fact that I don’t believe in your existence doesn’t cause you to cease to exist.
P
poche
Guest
It also has an effect on the other choices that one makes.
T
TheHolyTrinity
Guest
I would say that your Dad prays regularly for your conversion.
V
verum_quaeritis
Guest
Just the fact that you are asking this question means you are not “invincibly ignorant.” Your ignorance can be conquered, unlike someone who let’s say has never encountered the Christian God or who do not have the capacity to understand (profound mental retardation) the Catholic faith. That’s the only way ignorance can be defined as invincible (insurmountable).
In fact, you probably know more than most considering your father spent 9 years in the seminary, and I’m going to assume that he tried to raise you in the Catholic faith. Therefore, I think this has much more to do with your father’s personal belief system than any teaching from the Catholic Church, It would be interesting to know the evolution of your father’s faith.
For instance, both of my parents (father in the seminary for short time; mother tried to become a nun but rejected for being overly scrupulous) were very Catholic. During the 1960s, my mother started seeing a psychiatrist, who diagnosed her with clinical depression, and who blamed “scrupulosity” for her ongoing life-long condition. She didn’t want that for her children so, although she remained very Catholic insofar as she always insisted we go to mass every Sunday, and exposed us to all of the liberal Catholic groups she belonged to, she sent us to public school and never ever mentioned Hell. Unlike your father, she has come to deeply regret that decision as we, her children, grew up with very little knowledge about the true Catholic faith. As a consequence, we sort of fell away from the Church as adults, only going to mass when we felt like it. She even had to beg my youngest sister, who rejected the faith completely, to baptize her son in the Catholic Church. In other words, she feels as if she has failed God by not doing her duty to pass on the faith.
Your father obviously feels very differently from my mother, who regrets her decisions and who worries about not only her children’s salvation but her own. Why? Why doesn’t he worry about his son’s salvation? Has he always believed that atheists can go to Heaven, or has he come to this conclusion over time? Does he only believe this because he can’t fathom his son going to Hell? In other words, what is your father’s history in relation to the Catholic faith?
I have only read some of the responses so if this has been already discussed, I apologize.
In fact, you probably know more than most considering your father spent 9 years in the seminary, and I’m going to assume that he tried to raise you in the Catholic faith. Therefore, I think this has much more to do with your father’s personal belief system than any teaching from the Catholic Church, It would be interesting to know the evolution of your father’s faith.
For instance, both of my parents (father in the seminary for short time; mother tried to become a nun but rejected for being overly scrupulous) were very Catholic. During the 1960s, my mother started seeing a psychiatrist, who diagnosed her with clinical depression, and who blamed “scrupulosity” for her ongoing life-long condition. She didn’t want that for her children so, although she remained very Catholic insofar as she always insisted we go to mass every Sunday, and exposed us to all of the liberal Catholic groups she belonged to, she sent us to public school and never ever mentioned Hell. Unlike your father, she has come to deeply regret that decision as we, her children, grew up with very little knowledge about the true Catholic faith. As a consequence, we sort of fell away from the Church as adults, only going to mass when we felt like it. She even had to beg my youngest sister, who rejected the faith completely, to baptize her son in the Catholic Church. In other words, she feels as if she has failed God by not doing her duty to pass on the faith.
Your father obviously feels very differently from my mother, who regrets her decisions and who worries about not only her children’s salvation but her own. Why? Why doesn’t he worry about his son’s salvation? Has he always believed that atheists can go to Heaven, or has he come to this conclusion over time? Does he only believe this because he can’t fathom his son going to Hell? In other words, what is your father’s history in relation to the Catholic faith?
I have only read some of the responses so if this has been already discussed, I apologize.
Last edited:
S
steve-b
Guest
Actually the point is, [why / how] do we even know about hell or it’s possibility to go there?poche:
So what? Believing in hell’s existence does not cause it to exist. The point is that if you do not believe in the existence of an option makes it impossible for you to choose that option.
S
SunshineGrandma
Guest
I’ve often wondered how atheists view anecdotal evidence.
Does every belief need to be proven by science?
Does every belief need to be proven by science?
C
ChristMyLife
Guest
That’s theologically nonsensical…
Your lack of belief in him constitutes a rejection of him… At least in so far as what you reject is truly God and not a false idol you believe to be god.
C
ChristMyLife
Guest
Then you’re not an atheist, you’re a nontheistic agnostic.
Atheists emphatically deny even the possibility of a deity existing.
Last edited:
S
SunshineGrandma
Guest
Jumping into your conversation here.
Obviously, there has to be a tipping point for finally walking away from one’s faith.
What do you think the difference is between believers and non-believers?
A glass half full vs half empty approach to life in general perhaps?
I just read a comment today by an atheist who said if God was real he would be on Facebook or twitter making his presence known. My immediate thought response was “he is making his presence known and it’s called nature!” (I see God when I hear the wings of a hummingbird or shadows on the mountains).
That’s two people seeing the same situation with two different viewpoints. I’m curious what you think makes people decide to be a believer or not.
Obviously, there has to be a tipping point for finally walking away from one’s faith.
What do you think the difference is between believers and non-believers?
A glass half full vs half empty approach to life in general perhaps?
I just read a comment today by an atheist who said if God was real he would be on Facebook or twitter making his presence known. My immediate thought response was “he is making his presence known and it’s called nature!” (I see God when I hear the wings of a hummingbird or shadows on the mountains).
That’s two people seeing the same situation with two different viewpoints. I’m curious what you think makes people decide to be a believer or not.
P
Pattylt
Guest
For me, it began at about 17 years old and I didn’t call myself agnostic until about 40 years old. It was a long slow slog with multiple attempts to try and believe. I just don’t and I don’t know why. The best I’ve come up with is that somehow my brain just isn’t wired for God belief. While I’m not autistic, I am at the borderline…does that matter? I don’t know. I do know that I loved my belief in God and did NOT want to lose it. I’d welcome it back and I know many folks that hold out that hope for me.
At this point, all I remember is not feeling God anymore, not seeing God and not hearing God…all of which I begged for…something! I’m very serious when I say that nothing traumatic happened, no deaths in the family, I wasn’t mad at God…I just felt like He faded away…never to return. After about three years of crying to my Rabbi, talking with my family and friends, I began to reach out to other religions. Mainly Christianity. Nothing. I then went on a many year quest to study about why I lost my faith, reading others that lost and found it again. Reading about those that had and lost it like me. That’s when I discovered that there WERE other people like me though most of them (not all) were glad to be rid of it.
I’m still fascinated by people’s beliefs and why they believe. For now, I just seem incapable of belief in the supernatural. It just doesn’t click. I respect and even sometimes envy those that can have such strong beliefs. It’s a comfort I had and now don’t but I accept it.
Yes, it would be lovely if God gave everyone some absolute sign of His existence but He doesn’t…for whatever reasons. I don’t demand some booming voice from the sky. So many have had a personal event that assured them of His existence, I’ve never had that. So many feel God working in their lives, I’ve never had that. Some just trust that He’s there, I don’t have that. I just don’t have faith.
Sorry, that was looooong!
At this point, all I remember is not feeling God anymore, not seeing God and not hearing God…all of which I begged for…something! I’m very serious when I say that nothing traumatic happened, no deaths in the family, I wasn’t mad at God…I just felt like He faded away…never to return. After about three years of crying to my Rabbi, talking with my family and friends, I began to reach out to other religions. Mainly Christianity. Nothing. I then went on a many year quest to study about why I lost my faith, reading others that lost and found it again. Reading about those that had and lost it like me. That’s when I discovered that there WERE other people like me though most of them (not all) were glad to be rid of it.
I’m still fascinated by people’s beliefs and why they believe. For now, I just seem incapable of belief in the supernatural. It just doesn’t click. I respect and even sometimes envy those that can have such strong beliefs. It’s a comfort I had and now don’t but I accept it.
Yes, it would be lovely if God gave everyone some absolute sign of His existence but He doesn’t…for whatever reasons. I don’t demand some booming voice from the sky. So many have had a personal event that assured them of His existence, I’ve never had that. So many feel God working in their lives, I’ve never had that. Some just trust that He’s there, I don’t have that. I just don’t have faith.
Sorry, that was looooong!
G
Gorgias
Guest
Your father should’ve read Lumen gentium a bit more carefully in seminary, then.
Lumen gentium no.14:
So, if there were a point at which you (as a Catholic) said, “yep, this is truth” and then later said, “nah… not so much”… then you kinda fall into this category. There are definitely mitigating factors – “escape clauses” if you will – but your father’s idea that “since you don’t believe in God, you don’t reject Him” isn’t one of them.
There are other conversations that we could have on the topic, but your father’s idea just doesn’t hold water. Maybe – as other posters have suggested – his love for you makes it difficult for him to entertain the proposition that your rejection of God means that his belief system says you’ll spend eternity separated from God.
There are atheists of many stripes. They tend to get ticked off when we tell them what (and what not) they believe.
Last edited:
S
SunshineGrandma
Guest
Thank you for sharing. It seems there is the constant wearing away of our faith if we are not actively working to preserve it.
Have you ever read The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis?
I think Lewis does the most brilliant job at illustrating (through letters between a junior devil and a senior devil) how our faith can begin to wear down and completely lost if we are not careful.
I highly recommend it. I would love your thoughts. It’s a thin book but deep in meaning.
Have you ever read The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis?
I think Lewis does the most brilliant job at illustrating (through letters between a junior devil and a senior devil) how our faith can begin to wear down and completely lost if we are not careful.
I highly recommend it. I would love your thoughts. It’s a thin book but deep in meaning.
- Status