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Juvenal
Guest
Nah, just the important ones, the ones where your life is at stake. I personally believe I have perfect hair. My students are encouraged to agree, independent of any adverse evidence.
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SunshineGrandma
Guest
You only believe in anecdotal evidence if your life is at stake, but not when it comes to your hair.
Okay then…
How about in the following examples:
Even though science hasn’t yet proven essential oils are effective, they are very effective at reducing migraines in some people.
Or
People who have experienced healing but there is no scientific explanation or it isn’t something “science” would investigate.
Would you ever believe in anything that a person claims to have experienced even though science hasn’t confirmed it?
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Juvenal
Guest
You may be interested to discover that anecdotes are not considered data in science, hence the snipping of your first quote to remove the incoherence. Replacing it after its removal for cause and extrapolating off the incoherence is unlikely to advance this conversation.
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SunshineGrandma
Guest
Well, it’s probably for the best. You’re just too smart for lil’ ol’ me.
You might be new ‘round these parts. People don’t usually jump into others conversations unless they want to advance the conversation.
You might be new ‘round these parts. People don’t usually jump into others conversations unless they want to advance the conversation.
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AlruwhAlquds
Guest
Nobody can answer this question, there’s not enough information. First of all, your father knows you (and you him). You can’t convey that here. What you are doing is trying to make everything black and white, stating only the question and answer from your father. You leave out his knowledge and history of knowing you and you him. You cannot convey your relationship on here, and because I don’t have that info of you two, I cannot say it doesn’t exist and doesn’t have any weight on an answer. So there’s not enough info here for me. What I mean is, if you were my son or if my son told me he was atheist and asked me if I believed he would go to heaven. I would tell him I believe he “could” and “would” with a big IF. If you have been raised in Truth, you know Truth. If you truly reject it, I pray your soul continues to tug to go back to Truth because then I would fear for your soul. I know what the Truth says about those who are true atheists, I’m not about to help you disprove your father’s credibility.
Did you openly reject Christ to your father? Do you truly reject Him in your heart? We are evolving, many people in different stages of their lives believe very different things. My guess is that you are still exploring since you are on here.
If you have your doubts, by all means continue to research. But don’t be biased in your search. Have you looked up Catholic scientists and bothered to hear why they are both scientists and Catholic?
No true scientist would throw out the possibility of God. You cannot prove that God does not exist either.
Here’s a video with some scientific into that may be helpful, you can research journal articles on too.
Video:
https://www.catholic.com/user/reset/32343/1548208605/lu5eDsY0zBQNWYagQipf9IA-iVXSHBQWsco3IBiUVf4
Article:
Did you openly reject Christ to your father? Do you truly reject Him in your heart? We are evolving, many people in different stages of their lives believe very different things. My guess is that you are still exploring since you are on here.
If you have your doubts, by all means continue to research. But don’t be biased in your search. Have you looked up Catholic scientists and bothered to hear why they are both scientists and Catholic?
No true scientist would throw out the possibility of God. You cannot prove that God does not exist either.
Here’s a video with some scientific into that may be helpful, you can research journal articles on too.
Video:
https://www.catholic.com/user/reset/32343/1548208605/lu5eDsY0zBQNWYagQipf9IA-iVXSHBQWsco3IBiUVf4
Article:
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thistle
Guest
Can you explain what you mean? I don’t want to misunderstand you.
Everyone who goes to Purgatory is saved. They simply need cleansing before going to Heaven.
Nobody in Purgatory goes to Hell.
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steve-b
Guest
Everyone who goes to purgatory is already saved by definition, or they wouldn’t be going to purgatory for final purificationsteve-b:
Can you explain what you mean? I don’t want to misunderstand you.
Everyone who goes to Purgatory is saved. They simply need cleansing before going to Heaven.
Nobody in Purgatory goes to Hell.
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Juvenal
Guest
Apologies for my poorly considered response.
To the last, of course.
Every day, I’m told somebody took a cab, or went shopping, or any of a myriad other quotidian activities I have no reason to doubt, and so I believe them, despite the adage made famous by the “fixture in American journalism that trained Mike Royko, Kurt Vonnegut, Seymour M. Hersh and legions of other gritty reporters.”
More aptly, perhaps, I receive excuses from my students I have reason to doubt, but believe them anyway as a matter of policy unless I have evidence they are not telling the truth. Pro tip for students: If you can find that picture of your car with a flat tire on the web, so can I.
To the first, I see no reason why the health effects of essential oils couldn’t be investigated scientifically. Purported miraculous healings are a more difficult case, as the field is swamped with outright frauds and con men, making it similar to chasing through stacks of blurred pictures for an authentic glimpse of aliens, or yetis.
The real issue, for me, anyway, is that these miraculous claims never measure up to evidence of the universe’s creator. An ant’s ability to shift a pebble is not evidence of its ability to carve out a beach. Regrowing a human’s amputated leg is not evidence that an entity can whomp up galaxy clusters.
Then there are those things that others believe that I have good reason to doubt, from the existence of an afterlife to the beauty and brains of a doting father’s daughter whose quiz scores, at least, indicate otherwise. Unless these beliefs are causing damage, I see no reason to challenge them, and to the extent they provide comfort and support, I can even encourage them.
There’s asymmetry in these arguments for another’s god and heaven. There is no Great Commission in atheism. I have no reason to ask you to abandon your beliefs until those beliefs adversely impact your life or the lives of others.
If it works for you, more power to you.
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JimG
Guest
Does the OP believe that his father will go to heaven? Would it please him to think that his father could go to heaven?
And if someone found himself, at the end of his life, presented with the opportunity to go to heaven, would he decline to enter because it went against his worldview?
And if someone found himself, at the end of his life, presented with the opportunity to go to heaven, would he decline to enter because it went against his worldview?
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WillPhillips
Guest
Surely you realize atheists don’t believe in such ideas. Right?
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WillPhillips
Guest
It’s interesting/disheartening to see so few comments (of the 240 or so) address my original question. Why does someone who doesn’t hold similar beliefs elicit such responses? It’s interestingly very similar to my “in real life” atheist experience…ie just being an atheist (or trying to be genuine about my lack of belief) is an affront/offensive to so many religious folks. I don’t agree with your beliefs, and you don’t agree with mine…great. Anyway, I was hoping to actually get some answers here to my (sincere) question.
If you’re interested, I now suspect Richard Rohr (and his beliefs on hell) are where some of this is coming from (my father). Was hoping to find other Catholics who might be putting similar views out there.
If you’re interested, I now suspect Richard Rohr (and his beliefs on hell) are where some of this is coming from (my father). Was hoping to find other Catholics who might be putting similar views out there.
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JimG
Guest
Richard Rohr seems to teach a sort of universalism. He’s not reliable as a Catholic theologian. Still, if Rohr is correct, even atheists go to heaven.
But do they have to go to heaven if the really don’t want to?
But do they have to go to heaven if the really don’t want to?
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WillPhillips
Guest
Hmm, parroting this site’s faq. His resume as a Catholic is presumably more impressive than yours, yes? Regardless, looking to understand “Catholics” with similar views to his, if you have any.
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JimG
Guest
Well, there is Fr. Hans Urs von Balthasar, who wrote a short book entitled “Dare We Hope that All Men Be Saved?” some decades ago. It is still in print, and I see that Amazon has it available. I read it some time ago. My recollection is that he seemed hopeful but not certain.
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SunshineGrandma
Guest
Of course, this question was asked of another poster, so it’s a little tricky to pick it up from here. However, I really enjoy the conversation so I’ll give it a shot.
What I was, am, asking is, at what point do atheists need proof to believe something is true or to at least be willing to give it a go?
Obviously, most of us are not going to question everything we are told all day long. However, a police officer might. A judge…
Let me try to be more succinct using my previous analogy.
If person A claims to have found migraine relief by using essential oils, and there has been no scientific studies to back up their claim*, would/should person B, a migraineur, take their claim seriously and use essential oils to see if they find relief from their debilitating migraines?
*my son is attending a university in the Midwest and the students were asked to present on a topic. One group was presenting on the benefits of essential oils and were asked to stop their presentation because essential oils have not been scientifically studied, according to the professor, and therefore were not considered to be a suitable topic. I haven’t verified if the professor is correct, however I’m using his professional opinion for this post.
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rinnie
Guest
He has the right to think what he wants. Only God can know the true answer.
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phujosh
Guest
The belief in God is not a guaranteed passport to heaven. You are judged in your actions in how you’ve treated people especially those who are least among us as written in Matthew 25:31-46 - The Judgment of the Nations. Perhaps, this is where your father is basing his rationale. God doesn’t automatically condemn people to hell. If you’ve earned enough good deeds, there is still purgatory where people can make up for their sins.
Bible Passage
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phujosh
Guest
Not necessarily because they rejected God but because they failed to do his commandments.
Aren’t we also ultimately judged on our actions specially towards those least amongst us despite our beliefs in Him? Didn’t Satan and 1/3 of the angels believe in God and yet they were thrown in hell, which was made for them, not necessarily because they refused to believe in Him but because they refused to obey Him by not doing God’s will and his commandments?
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Gorgias
Guest
So… a citation is unreliable because it comes from catholic.com…?
Well, his resume might be impressive. Whether it’s impressive with respect to being in step with Catholic teaching is a whole 'nother question…
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InternalRhyme
Guest
This is the dictionary definition of agnosticism: “a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena”.
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