'I’m gay and I’m a priest, period.’

[Havard]

Whenever I hear people say that gay men cannot or should not be priests, I think of Father Mychal Judge, who died a hero on September 11, 2001, ministering to the men of the New York City Fire Department who were injured, and who died, during that attack.

So I say it’s nonsense that gay men can’t be priests. We could use more men like Father Judge.

Though celibate, it appears he dissented on this basic moral teaching:

“Mychal had come to terms with being gay, and disagreed with official church teaching about gay orientation and gay relationships” (Ford: p.182)

Source: saintmychaljudge.blogspot.com/search/label/Gay%20Saint/

According to the article you linked, and others, he was a longtime supporter of Dignity. Per ReligiousTolerance.org, Dignity is a group that advocates for the acceptance of gay sex as being “unitive, loving, life-giving, and life-affirming.”

Source: religioustolerance.org/hom_rom1.htm

 

[Inisfallen]

Though celibate, it appears he dissented on this basic moral teaching:

“Mychal had come to terms with being gay, and disagreed with official church teaching about gay orientation and gay relationships” (Ford: p.182)

Source: saintmychaljudge.blogspot.com/search/label/Gay%20Saint/

According to the article you linked, and others, he was a longtime supporter of Dignity. Per ReligiousTolerance.org, Dignity is a group that advocates for the acceptance of gay sex as being “unitive, loving, life-giving, and life-affirming.”

Source: religioustolerance.org/hom_rom1.htm

Nothing you say, or that you quote from someone who is quoted in some blog, changes my mind about Father Judge.

 

[Inisfallen]

I’m not against priests who have SSA. Or gays at all. I work with them in fact (yes…in the fire department). It’s not that that bugs me. It’s the fact that they feel the need to broadcast it (as in this article). Not just priests, but in society also. I think the media is to blame mostly. More like *in-your-face, what are you gonna do about it *attitude. I read the book about Fr. Judge and they made a point of bringing his SSA out. Is that necessary?

I’m at work right now. I’m working late pretty often these days because we (me, my wife and our daughter) could use the OT.

I have a picture of my wife and daughter in my cubicle.

In the next cubicle, there’s someone else working late. Nice guy, good at what he does, easy to work with. He’s got a picture of his (male) significant other on his desk.

Is he “in my face”?

 

[Havard]

Nothing you say, or that you quote from someone who is quoted in some blog, changes my mind about Father Judge.

Well, you brought him up, and I just followed the link you posted to learn about him. That blog was cited as the source for his position on sexuality on that wiki page. But let’s set aside the particular example.

Surely you agree that priests cannot advocate for positions that are contrary to the Magisterium, right?

 

[Inisfallen]

Well, you brought him up, and I just followed the link you posted to learn about him. That blog was cited as the source for his position on sexuality on that wiki page. But let’s set aside the particular example.

Surely you agree that priests cannot advocate for positions that are contrary to the Magisterium, right?

Which positions are you talking about? That homosexual men can be priests? I wasn’t aware that the Magisterium said otherwise. If so, we’re in trouble, because it’s been my experience in my more that 50 years as a churchgoing Catholic that a significant percentage of priests are homosexual.

If you’re talking about Father Judge in particular, I don’t know or care whether or not he disagreed with his superiors on any given point. He was an extraordinary man.

 

[Little_Sheep]

Before the 70’s homosexuality was considered a disorder and medically was changed by pressures of the gay lobby. Regardless of that the Catholic Church, as psychiatry did prior to the 7p’s, currently considers homosexuality a disorder. Here we are talking about seminars that the Catholic Church has so from this point of view it is a disorder and should be a disqualification.

Yes, I understand and respect the position that the Catholic Church takes. Still, we must traffic in the face of the current science that has been revealed to us. That science tells us that homosexuality is as aberrant as left-handedness…we only fuss because we are so wigged out about the sexual organs and what the may or may not do. “Disorder” no longer speaks to the knowledge of the Day.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

I guess we shouldn’t have straight people broadcasting their sexual orientation either. No pictures of spouses on the desk at work, no talking about grandchildren or wives or husbands.

Actually, I believe that there are businesses that in fact have taken such a step. I remember reading about this, but I can’t cite a specific firm.

 

[utah_rose]

While I’m not at leisure to find the data at present, I believe the vast majority of the sex abuse cases were pederasty.

Sadly, we knew of a priest from a devout Catholic family who was gay. I don’t know if he was before the seminary, but he ultimately lived a gay lifestyle in addition to being pastor of his boyhood church. Ultimately, he was defrocked, and I think he committed suicide. I still pray for his soul. Now I think there’s more psychological testing, and seminarians with that tendency aren’t allowed to be ordained because of too many temptations. This priest would be better off if he requested an administrative job or left the priesthood. It would take a real Saint to live a chaste life as a parish priest, not to mention all the stresses that priests have now. All more of a reason to pray for them as Satan is out to destroy all of them.

 

[Havard]

Which positions are you talking about? That homosexual men can be priests? I wasn’t aware that the Magisterium said otherwise. If so, we’re in trouble, because it’s been my experience in my more that 50 years as a churchgoing Catholic that a significant percentage of priests are homosexual.

If you’re talking about Father Judge in particular, I don’t know or care whether or not he disagreed with his superiors on any given point. He was an extraordinary man.

“Disagreeing with your superiors” can be minor. Priests are free to have their own opinions. But actively opposing a basic moral teaching of the Church is NOT the same thing.

Re-posted and bolded for clarity:

“Mychal had come to terms with being gay, and disagreed with official church teaching about gay orientation and gay relationships” (Ford: p.182)

Being a part of/supporting Dignity, a group which explicitly encourages disobedience to the Catholic Church and distorts scripture, would be a serious violation of Jesus’ teachings (Mt 18:6 comes to mind), not to mention the vow of obedience.

“Father Judge, a gregarious, sandal-shod Franciscan friar who was 68 when he died, was a longtime member of a gay Catholic group, Dignity…”

Source:
nytimes.com/2005/09/25/nyregion/admirers-of-fallen-911-hero-disdain-the-vaticans-likely-plan-to-bar-gays-as-priests.html

“The priest bent church rules by joining the gay Catholic group Dignity and allowing it to meet in his Franciscan-run parish.”

Source:
huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/25/gay-catholic_n_937205.html

 

[Havard]

Yes, I understand and respect the position that the Catholic Church takes. Still, we must traffic in the face of the current science that has been revealed to us. That science tells us that homosexuality is as aberrant as left-handedness…we only fuss because we are so wigged out about the sexual organs and what the may or may not do. “Disorder” no longer speaks to the knowledge of the Day.

Theology and psychology are different sciences. The word “disordered” means very different things when you are speaking morally versus when you are speaking positively (descriptively).

 

[phil19034]

I mean, the alternative is that gay men never spend time with men. Would you rather gay boys join the girl scouts? Or just not join at all?

I was a cubscout. Never a boy scout. But, it’s not like I’ve ever been “out” anyways.
Should gay male college students live in girls dorms?

Where does it end. That’s just a really paranoid position. And if carried out to its fullest extent (the test of finding truth), the results are completely ridiculous and unmanageable. G.K. Chesterton destroyed heresies in Everlasting Man by carrying them to their fullest extent.

So, do you want gay men using female restrooms?

I’m not saying gay men can’t spend time with other men. That would be silly. I’m saying that it’s an issue which does NOT have an all around simple solution. There are negatives to everything in these scenarios.

 

[phil19034]

Yeah:

1. Gay suicide is already a big problem. And I guarantee you that if you want every gay person to live by themselves, that’s going to be a worse problem. I’ll say it more bluntly: more gay people will kill themselves in college if they took your advice.

– I’m not saying that colleges should take my advise. I’m saying that it’s a problem and that having gay, young men in the seminary creates that that issue there

1. That is seriously discrimination. Its a lot more expensive to find apartments or living arrangements in college. College students are already broke. Now you’re forcing all the gay ones to be forced to get their own house or apartment, which again… are always the most expensive. Around here, a single apartment is typically $850-1050 a month, for one person. Whereas you can find a 3 bedroom apartment for as low as $250-350 a month per person. That’s actual descrimination.

– again, you were missing my point (or perhaps my point isn’t clear). My point was about seminaries… I was using college life as a parallel. My point wasn’t about “discrimination” is was about chaste living situations, where people should not be living with a member of the sex they are attracted to. This becomes very complicated when gay people are introduced and legitimatizes the argument that it is ok male & female roommate situations.

1. I never hang out with girls. I think its so stereotypical to say that gay men should hang out with girls. I have friends who are girls, but I spend far less time with them. Most of my friends are other guys, and they’re very good friends.

I did NOT say that gay men “should” hand out with girls. I said, stereotypically, than many (not all) gay men do hang out with girls at least some of the time, more so than straight guys. Many of the gay men I was friends with in college and who I work with hang out with lots of women. Even my Fraternity little brother turned out to be gay, I always suspected it and didn’t stop hanging out with him because he came out. He stopped hanging out with everyone because for years he said he wasn’t gay and could not face us. It was really a shame.

Put yourself in my shoes.
Your philosophy about how gay people should live, just because of their attractions is not only totally impractical, but its contrary to Church teaching. Ok?

Why don’t you share these ideas with your priest, and see if he feels that they fully respect the dignity of the human person.

I’m sorry that I’m offending you. I was NEVER saying how gay people should live. I was trying to illustrate the complexities. Being gay is a major Cross to bare that I do not have to bare. But I do have many other Crosses that I would never wish upon someone else. We all have to make the best of our situations. The problem with today’s society is that the will of the minority has be come law; vs. the minority being protected. What I mean is: people should NEVER be fired for being gay. However, Catholic schools should not be persecuted for not allowing a gay teach to get married. Additionally, gay people should be allowed to shop in any store/café/bakery/etc they want; however, bakeries should not be run out of business for refusing to put a message on a cake they find to be morally wrong.

And in regards to the respecting the dignity of the human person, it is my CONCERN for the gay person that makes me raise these concerns. Back to the Boy Scouts example: It is NOT cool to make a gay boy sleep by himself in a tent. That can & will be very damaging to a gay boy.

However, allowing him to sleep in the same tent as a straight or another gay boy is no different than allowing a straight boy to sleep in the same tent as a straight girl. If gay boys are allowed to sleep in the same tent as other boys, then why can’t boys sleep in the same tent as girls? If gay boys can be in Boy Scouts, then why not girls? I’m NOT suggesting that gay boys are more like girls, but I’m saying that if you allow children who are attracted to boys to join an all boys club, then why is it ok to discriminate against the rest of children who are attracted to boys?

My point: all of these things have MANY unforeseen consequences for the majority of the population, which we will not see the full effects of for a generation or two. It’s important to move slowly and with clarity & charity.

Finally - please keep in mind that these online forums are very difficult to have these kinds of discussions. You cannot hear my voice inflection, my concern for my fellow man (both straight & gay), there is no opportunity for real time clarification, etc.

May God Bless you and bring you peace. And please pray for me, as I will pray for you.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

I don’t agree with your arguments. Gay men are surrounded by other men just about everywhere they go. Heterosexual priests are surrounded by more women than men in most parishes, and they are expected to remain chaste. Moreover, the notion that gay priests are responsible for the clergy sex abuse crisis has been thoroughly debunked. As for whether gay men have more psychological problems than heterosexual men, I have no idea. Do you have any data to support that assertion?

In recent years, there have been attempts to screen out gay men from diocesan seminaries. I can’t comment on the success of these efforts. I do know from personal experience (I was a Jesuit for 5 years although never ordained) that there are a lot of gay men in the priesthood and religious life.

I don’t understand why homosexuality should disqualify someone from religious life and priesthood, although I do think that anyone who vows/promises celibacy should remain celibate, whatever their sexual orientation.

Homosexuals are barred from the priesthood for good reason. Another poster gave a link to a CAF article that says, “Myth: Pedophile priests have been the problem. Fact: Homosexual priests have been the problem. Proof: 81 percent of the victims have been male, and more than 95 percent have been postpubescent. When males have sex with postpubescent males, it is called homosexuality.” The very fact that someone has homosexual tendencies indicates that they have a mental disorder, which is often accompanied with other mental problems.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

Wrong again. The Catholic Church specifically doesn’t endorse “conversion therapy”. Your interpretation of the Vatican documents is simply wrong. And I’ve never encountered a single priest who has ever repeated this. Every orthodox priest I know actually knows the Church teaching. Conversion therapy is not and has never been endorsed by the Catholic Church.

Your words contradict Church teaching. I would go and ask a priest, who will set you straight. No pun intended.

The Catholic Church doesn’t have a stance on conversion therapy, and I see nothing wrong with it that would make the Church look unfavorably upon it. I already have asked a priest, Fr. Vincent Sperpa, and he was quite clear that a homosexual cannot become a priest.

 

[guanophore]

The very fact that someone has homosexual tendencies indicates that they have a mental disorder, which is often accompanied with other mental problems.

No, Confiteor. Having same sex attraction is not a mental disorder. You really seem to have some uninformed attitudes about this matter.

 

[guanophore]

The Catholic Church doesn’t have a stance on conversion therapy, and I see nothing wrong with it that would make the Church look unfavorably upon it.

Reparative therapy has not been shown to be effective, and in some case damaging. For some people, turning from a homosexual to a heterosexual is not a practical possiblity, just like it may be to turn a heterosexual person into a homosexual. (Consider someone you know that is heterosexual).

I already have asked a priest, Fr. Vincent Sperpa, and he was quite clear that a homosexual cannot become a priest.

Well, I am sure Fr. Serpa is referring to the policy that homosexuals not be ordained. This has as much to do with identifying oneself by one’s sexuality as anything else. But the fact is that homosexual persons have been ordained priests, are presently being ordained, and most likely will be ordained. Those willing to stay “in the closet” will continue to be undiscovered and those willing to remain celibate will be making the same vows that a heterosexual candidate will make.

Be sure, a person with same sex attractions can remain silent and under cover for a lifetime, and may never be discovered.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

No, Confiteor. Having same sex attraction is not a mental disorder. You really seem to have some uninformed attitudes about this matter.

They often have many mental issues that stem from the mental disorder of homosexuality. The American Psychiatric Association only removed it from the DSM because of the pressure from homosexual groups. According to the California Health Interview Survey, 48.5% of homosexuals sought substance abuse or mental health counseling, which is twice as much as heterosexuals. Homosexuality has been linked to higher rates of drug use, depression, domestic violence, and a past of childhood sexual abuse. They are also at a higher risk of committing suicide, even in areas that are accepting of homosexuals.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

Sounds sort of vain if you ask me. A priest is to serve/administer to the people. From this I get that, “Look at me, look at me” feeling.
Sorry if this sound gossipy. It just annoys me to no end.

It’s called narcissism which goes together quite nicely with loving one’s own sex or oneself. Onanism for the same reason is proscribed. Those who say this is not a mental disorder as though we are not body and mind, how would they account for the exhibitionism and narcissism? It used to be thought this was a kind of arrested development. Children have to call attention to themselves all the time. I’ll buy that.

 

[Abynissa]

Well apparently, the vetting process is flawed as reported by several priests since it fails to block homosexuals from entering the priesthood. Too many people are looking at the bodily functions of man with regards to sexuality whereas God looks to the soul of man and his adaptation to holiness.

Not only does cloistering with men open up temptation to those with homosexual tendencies even if repressed, but realistically in this age of the internet surfing, you can not disregard the fact that the internet could lead someone to thousands of websites that could cause one to easily fall into a state of debauchery. The internet and today’s society increase the temptations through opportunities to engage in immoral behavior is unparallel in the history of the church.

2 Peter 3
His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17 Therefore, dear friends, **since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. **

1 Corinthians 10:32
**32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— **

Timothy 3:7
He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

How will this affect the Church worldwide?

Will it affect those Catholics who have children?

Will it affect the faith of Catholics?

 

[FollowChrist34]

'I’m gay and I’m a priest, period.’
WASHINGTON POST

God, what are you calling me to do here, prayed the priest. Come out, or stay in the closet ?

After 23 years in Chicago parishes, the question had pushed its way to the surface.

He weighed his options. He thought about his parishioners. Many, he knew, were accepting of gay people, even of same-sex marriage, but others — less so. He had grown up in a large Catholic family; he understood what people’s faith meant to them. He didn’t want to harm his flock, or the Catholic Church.

He wondered if he could be penalized in his job. And, in truth, he considered his status. He knew many Catholics had what he might call a romanticized view of the priesthood: Priests are supposed to be pure, almost above the world of sexuality, selfishly willing to give up creating a family of their own to serve God. This would mean falling from that pedestal…MORE:

How does one determine they are gay unlesss they know they have a sexual attraction toward males? If they have attraction toward males shouldn’t this condition disqualify them from entering into ministry since the all male environment would increase their temptation?

I am fine with celibate gay priests who wish to serve God and the Church, no question.

But there is a bit of an issue when gay priests, celibate or not, clearly don’t accept Church teaching on this issue. To me that is a conflict of interest. I don’t think it is far-fetched to go to ‘gay lobby’ from here, which even the Pope has acknowledged.

My guess though is there is a wide range of acceptance of teaching in this context for gay priests, from yes to no. There is a gay subculture within the priesthood; the numbers are anybody’s guess. I suspect above the average population but not nearly as high as gay advocates like to believe. This is such a no-go zone though in terms of conversation, I guess for obvious reasons. To me it is a real Achilles heel for the Church.

They speak forcefully about the tough work they had to do to accept their sexuality and how important a part it is of who they are. But their acceptance of the closet often harks back to an earlier time.