I’m not convinced that universalism is heresy

  • Thread starter Thread starter CampionTheChampion
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Excellent point. I would only add that God is simple, so these attributes are not in conflict with one another (I do not think you meant to imply that, but it seemed like you did imply it).
 
I’ll just say this. Take Jesus’ parable regarding the workers and the vineyard. The workers who worked in the vineyard all got the same reward, yes. But did the landowner proceed to give a day’s wages to everyone in the city? No. They never labored in the vineyard, so they received no reward. The same is true of Heaven.
 
Because God wants us to know Him and His will for us .

"‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

Jesus did not give us His commandments as a test , so that by failing or passing the test our eternity will be decided .

Jesus gave us His commandments so that we can know how to respond with love to the One whose love passes our understanding .

The motivation for keeping the commandments of Jesus is love .

The motivation is not to get some reward in the hereafter .

God wants us to love uncondtionally as He does .
 
It’s a deep subject, and the more I studied it the more plausible it became. Especially with interpretation of scripture and when thinking about the nature of the gospel.

I still do not consider myself a universalist. I am only a flirt 😉 Though recently I’ve been struggling with arguing against the universalists’ arguments.
 
CampionTheChampion said:
I’m back, but less moody. I think all my emotional weirdness is gone now. Again, my apologies for being so rude yesterday.

Anyways, I’ve noticed there’s a vast diversity of thought within the hellfire club. Some have said it’s heresy to say that it’s possible all will be saved while others say that it’s only heresy to say all will definitely be saved. Others think neither is heresy, but they imply it’s a little unorthodox.

But if you admit that saying it’s possible that all are saved, shouldn’t it logically follow that it is not heresy to say it’s definately the case that all are saved?
Click to expand...
You still did not respond to my earlier comment.

The Church teaches infallibly that anyone dying in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell and is there FOREVER. Obviously then it is heresy to reject that teaching and saying that everyone will or might be saved at the end of time contradicts the infallible Church teaching. Therefore universalism is a heresy!
 
babochka said:
Is Hell Crowded or Empty? A Catholic Perspective - Word on Fire
Click to expand...
I can’t say Barron’s last analogy in that link fits. when he said

"Think of God’s life as a party to which everyone is invited, and think of Hell as the sullen corner into which someone who resolutely refuses to join the fun has sadly slunk. What this image helps us to understand is that language which suggests that God “sends” people to Hell is misleading. "

🤔 what does Barron think judgement is for? We don’t judge ourselves. We are judged by God. This is not about grumpy people at a party. and some need a good talking to

"As C.S. Lewis put it so memorably: the door that closes one into Hell (if there is anyone there) is locked from the inside not from the outside. "

I never bought that analogy. The rich man and Lazarus story, the rich man wanted out. He didn’t want to be where he was. He was there because he was sent there.

“The existence of Hell as a real possibility is a corollary of two more fundamental convictions, namely, that God is love and that human beings are free. The divine love, freely rejected, results in suffering. And yet, we may, indeed we should, hope that God’s grace will, in the end, wear down the even the most recalcitrant sinner.”

Jesus is the one telling the story of Lazarus and the rich man. When the rich man wanted out, he was told that there was no getting out of where he was. When he pleaded for his family that they not come to where he was, he was told his family has the law and prophets let them listen to THEM. Jesus already knows the end of the story. God doesn’t scare us needlessly. God can’t lie
 
Last edited:
Rob2 said:
Because God wants us to know Him and His will for us .

"‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

Jesus did not give us His commandments as a test , so that by failing or passing the test our eternity will be decided .

Jesus gave us His commandments so that we can know how to respond with love to the One whose love passes our understanding .

The motivation for keeping the commandments of Jesus is love .

The motivation is not to get some reward in the hereafter .

God wants us to love uncondtionally as He does .
Click to expand...
Yet all the warnings are out there.

Obedience brings reward, disobedience brings punishment. Our life is the test. No need to be warned to persevere till the end… or else, if there is no consequence at the end, for NOT persevering in obedience of faith
 
Last edited:
I found a great theme song for you and this thread, Pastor Elvis 🤣

 
steve-b said:
Yet all the warnings are out there.

Obedience brings reward, disobedience brings punishment. Our life is the test. No need to be warned to persevere till the end… or else, if there is no consequence at the end, for NOT persevering in obedience of faith
Click to expand...
No , no , no .

I’ll stay with Jesus’ Good News .
 
Hmmmmm. Wasn’t it Jesus who threatened people with Gehenna for not doing the will of the Father?
 
Since I’m already out on a limb, apparently, with the hope that all will be saved, I’ll post this talk from Fr. Robert Wild, a priest of the Madonna House Apostolate and the postulator for the cause for canonization of Catherine de Hueck Doherty. He gives what I consider to be a balanced overview of the topic of universalism, but others here will likely disagree. He uses the term theologumena instead of heresy when referring to the possibility and hope of universalism.

 
Last edited:
Rob2 said:
40.png
steve-b:
Yet all the warnings are out there.

Obedience brings reward, disobedience brings punishment. Our life is the test. No need to be warned to persevere till the end… or else, if there is no consequence at the end, for NOT persevering in obedience of faith
Click to expand...
No , no , no .

I’ll stay with Jesus’ Good News .
Click to expand...
The good news is that Jesus is Mercy AND Just.

Many ignore or refuse to accept the last part of that is true.
 
Last edited:
christofirst said:
Since I’m already out on a limb, apparently, with the hope that all will be saved, I’ll post this talk from Fr. Robert Wild, a priest of the Madonna House Apostolate and the postulator for the cause for canonization of Catherine de Hueck Doherty. He gives what I consider to be a balanced overview of the topic of universalism, but others here will likely disagree. He uses the term theologumena instead of heresy when referring to the possibility and hope of universalism.

Click to expand...
this priest’s story had a NDE. Fr Jose
 
Last edited:
CampionTheChampion said:
I’m back, but less moody. I think all my emotional weirdness is gone now. Again, my apologies for being so rude yesterday.
Click to expand...
Glad you are feeling better!
CampionTheChampion said:
After all, he is presenting views which dominate the pre-Vatican II era.
Click to expand...
I’d advise caution going down the road of “that was then, this is now”. Dogma does not change. Truth is true 1000 years ago and 1000 years from now.
 
Dogma does not change, but interpretations of dogma and doctrines can. I’m a full believer in Neumann’s idea of development.
 
A universalist would argue that nobody dies in a state of mortal sin. Maybe some mortal sins have been committed, but they’ve all been absolved before the sinner’s death.
 
I would suggest you actually read the Gospels instead of trying to put heretical Modernist spin on them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top