I’m not convinced that universalism is heresy

[steve-b]

My mother believes a heresay that all souls go to purgatory, and no one goes to hell, or that people are reincarnated and forced to pay for their sins. She does not believe in hell and she is a Roman Catholic.

We can’t make anyone believe. All we can do is give people information. What they do with it is up to them. But we have the responsibility to share information that we have when the opportunity presents itself.

That said, share with her the following from the CCC. Again, what she does with this info is up to her

The Catholic Church teaches Hell exists. And that people who die in mortal sin do NOT go to purgatory but go straight to hell.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”

• Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth.”

References to Hell in the CCC

 

[ShowersofRoses]

I agree with you, Gov.

I don’t understand the need for Christ to die such an agonizing death or for us to adhere to such a strict moral law and deny ourselves, if all go to Heaven anyway, even if it’s through Purgatory first. It seems to deny everything Jesus taught. What would be the point of His suffering?

And even more poignant to most people, what would be the point of OUR suffering here on earth? Knowing our suffering has a purpose makes it bearable. Thinking that there’s no purpose to our suffering because we all end up in Heaven no matter what we do or how we live our lives here on earth…who can live with that?

Why were Jesus and the Apostles so assertive in demanding purity and holiness from us if it ultimately doesn’t matter?

I do pray and hope for everyone’s salvation but I don’t believe it’s going to turn out that way. Just because God desires for all to be saved doesn’t mean they will be. It’s a free gift of salvation that not all men take.

However, I’m glad the final judgement is up to Him and not me. I’ll be content whichever way God decides since He will mete out perfect justice. I pray He has mercy on me, a sinner, and on the whole world.

 

[wkj_123]

I don’t understand the need for Christ to die such an agonizing death or for us to adhere to such a strict moral law and deny ourselves, if all go to Heaven anyway, even if it’s through Purgatory first. It seems to deny everything Jesus taught. What would be the point of His suffering

That line of thinking can lead down a rabbit hole. Your right if there is no hell then no need for Jesus right? But then why do we need hell? God created us and set all this up. He didn’t have to create us. He didn’t have to create hell. He didn’t have to make it to where hell or heaven we’re your only two choices. So what is the point of Jesus? Basically you have to accept Jesus, so he can save you from what he is going to do to you if you don’t accept him. The whole we choose it thing doesn’t hold water. We are not God. We didn’t create this. Unfortunately universalism does make more logical sense than the Catholic position on hell.

 

[ShowersofRoses]

I don’t go down that line of thinking because I know that Hell wasn’t created originally for us humans…it was created as punishment for the angels who rejected God.

As for why people go there, I think this post sums it up nicely:

obviously it’s legitimate to pray prayers like “O my Jesus… Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy.”

But is every soul going to follow Jesus’ lead?

Probably not. Because that’s the nature of free will.

If every soul freely chose to go to Heaven, that would be good.

If every soul was forced to go to Heaven and spend eternity with God, Heaven would also be an eternal prison. In fact, it would be Hell.

It is love of God and free choice that makes Heaven heavenly.

So of course it is legitimate to hope that all humans will get their act together and choose the good God. But if they don’t, it is individual humans who will be at fault, not God’s mercy and justice.

You can lead a horse to the Living Water, but you can’t make him drink; that is what would be cruel.

And these:

Anyone who chooses to reject God is mad and needs a doctor, not an eternal burning.

God gives everyone a chance in life and at the moment of death to repent. If people choose to reject God and refuse to be with Him, then He gives them what they want. He allows them to separate themselves from Him, the One Source of Goodness, forever.

If a person rejects God in this life, why would they want to spend eternity with the same?

 

[catholic1seeks]

I think the kind of question raised by this thread is based in a faulty notion of hell. If hell is unjust, then of course we’d want to find a way to say that God saves everyone from this injustice.

So rather, we need to work on our definition of hell, perhaps. We need to work with a definition that is completely compatible with a loving God. And we know it is – it has to be – since Jesus did teach about hell, even if it’s only a possibility (even if no one is in hell).

So, for example, if hell is defined as “a place full of arbitrary and external punishment inflicted by demons with whips and flamethrowers,” then yes, God surely saves all creation from that, because that is not compatible with the love of God.

But that’s not hell – unfortunate if our artwork or popular notions express otherwise.

As for whether any particular person is in hell, the Church has not defined.

 

[ShowersofRoses]

So, for example, if hell is defined as “a place full of arbitrary and external punishment inflicted by demons with whips and flamethrowers,” then yes, God surely saves all creation from that, because that is not compatible with the love of God.

I agree with you on this…this is not what Hell is, despite what Dante wrote.

 

[steve-b]

I don’t go down that line of thinking because I know that Hell wasn’t created originally for us humans…it was created as punishment for the angels who rejected God.

Yet God knows everything, before anything is created He knows beginning to end. Before the angels He knew 1/3 would fail. Just like with humanity. He knew before Adam, all the souls that would be in the book of life and those who are not. He knows every choice of every person from the 1st Adam to the last, will make before the creation of the world. The book of life doesn’t grow or shrink. And because we don’t know the particulars that information, we are to be on constant alert for ourselves in this life and that of the life of others we are able to effect… to persevere till the end

ShowersofRoses:

As for why people go there, I think this post sums it up nicely:

obviously it’s legitimate to pray prayers like “O my Jesus… Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy.”

But is every soul going to follow Jesus’ lead?

Probably not. Because that’s the nature of free will.

If every soul freely chose to go to Heaven, that would be good.

If every soul was forced to go to Heaven and spend eternity with God, Heaven would also be an eternal prison. In fact, it would be Hell.

It is love of God and free choice that makes Heaven heavenly.

So of course it is legitimate to hope that all humans will get their act together and choose the good God. But if they don’t, it is individual humans who will be at fault, not God’s mercy and justice.

God gives everyone a chance in life and at the moment of death to repent. If people choose to reject God and refuse to be with Him, then He gives them what they want. He allows them to separate themselves from Him, the One Source of Goodness, forever.

If a person rejects God in this life, why would they want to spend eternity with the same?

Agreed

 

[ShowersofRoses]

Yet God knows everything, before anything is created He knows beginning to end. Before the angels He knew 1/3 would fail. Just like with humanity. He knew before Adam, all the souls that would be in the book of life and those who are not. He knows every choice of every person from the 1st Adam to the last, will make before the creation of the world. The book of life doesn’t grow or shrink. And because we don’t know that information, we are to be on constant alert for ourselves in this life and that of the life of others we are able to effect…

Yes, of course. Nothing I wrote was in any way trying to imply that God is not omniscient and didn’t know beforehand how human history would happen and who would be written in the Book of Life.

He knows us before we were born, before we were created, He knew us. I find so much comfort in that.

He knows who will choose to trust in Him and who will reject Him, but we still have free will to do so. We must be diligent to persevere to the end of our lives with faith and never cease to encourage each other in our faith.

 

[wkj_123]

don’t go down that line of thinking because I know that Hell wasn’t created originally for us humans

That can’t logically be true though. God knew when he created hell that humans would go there. It’s impossible for God to “originally” create hell for angels because at the moment he created it he knew humans would be put in there.

 

[kill051]

Is hell possibly more merciful? These people have rejected God and refused to be purified for heaven. It could be that heaven would be even more torturous to their fallen souls, and God is permitting them a lesser suffering.

This is a good point. John Henry Cardinal Newman opined that the light of God’s love that warms and envelops the saints in Heaven, is the same light that is experienced as consuming fire by the lost souls in Hell. In his fantasy novel for adults The Great Divorce, C.S. Lewis posited a Heaven where everything, trees, water, grass etc, is forever and solidly itself, and properly enjoyable only by the saints, who have surrendered their fallen natures to Christ. When a group of lost souls temporarily visits Heaven apropos of deciding whether or not to stay, those who make the surrender find their immaterial, ghostly bodies solidifying into those of saints, while those who are unrepentant encounter apples that no strength can lift, meadows that are a torment to tread as each blade of grass is like a sharp dagger point to the soles of their feet, and gentle raindrops that pierce their wraithish bodies like bullets.

 

[ShowersofRoses]

A couple things to consider:

1. Who is to say He doesn’t try and that the people in hell continue to refuse it? After all, the rich man never asked to be let out. He merely asked for a minor, temporary reduction of his suffering.
2. Is hell possibly more merciful? These people have rejected God and refused to be purified for heaven. It could be that heaven would be even more torturous to their fallen souls, and God is permitting them a lesser suffering.

Yes, thank you, @kill051. You make excellent points. I think there is a lot we can learn from the imagery of The Great Divorce.

I was trying to find ZMystiCat’s quote in my previous post but it was buried in the thread. It’s so good it’s worth repeating.

 

[ShowersofRoses]

That’s a nice, well-balanced look at his life, that doesn’t try to brand him as a heretic nor approves of what he taught, since final Church decisions on those matters would only come much later.

 

[CampionTheChampion]

I was actually given a copy of that book for free. Great gift! And I happened to read that section just last night! I do not think Ott did justice to the topic. After all, he is presenting views which dominate the pre-Vatican II era.

 

[CampionTheChampion]

Like 1 Cor 15:22

 

[CampionTheChampion]

I’m back, but less moody. I think all my emotional weirdness is gone now. Again, my apologies for being so rude yesterday.

Anyways, I’ve noticed there’s a vast diversity of thought within the hellfire club. Some have said it’s heresy to say that it’s possible all will be saved while others say that it’s only heresy to say all will definitely be saved. Others think neither is heresy, but they imply it’s a little unorthodox.

But if you admit that saying it’s possible that all are saved, shouldn’t it logically follow that it is not heresy to say it’s definately the case that all are saved?

For example, it’s heresy to say that God is definitely not a trinity. But given that this is the case, shouldn’t it also be heresy to say it’s possible that God is not a trinity?

How do you reconcile these two statements?

1. Professing belief in apokatastasis is heresy.
2. Professing belief that apokatastasis might be true is not heresy.

We would all surely agree that no heresy could possibly be true, so why do we allow people to believe that apokatastasis might be true? I would answer that the Church’s “failure” to condemn belief in the possibility of apokatastasis is because apokatastasis as such is not heresy.

Just imagine how crazy it would be if the Holy Spirit allowed the Church to promote possible Sabellianism at Vatican II! I can imagine a thread on this site from an alternative universe. “No! You can’t believe Sabellianism! That’s heresy! *Insert annoying meme here.* But you can believe that it is possible that Sabellianism is true!”

Are you guys seeing just how crazy this appears to me? Why are universalists written off as “heretics” while possible universalists enjoy shoutouts and commendation in the Catechism (CCC 1058 and 1821)! Do you not see how this double standard appears so arbitrary? And it must surely be sheer sophistry to suggest that there is somehow no heresy in publicly teaching that a known “heresy” could be true. If Balthazar taught “it is possible that God is not a trinity”, we would rightful regard that teaching as heretical. So I ask, why is universalism different?

 

[Latin]

The Church is praying for Universal Salvation (1058), the will of God is Universal Salvation, so Universal Salvation CAN NOT be heresy.

We all should believe what we are praying for, which is UNIVERSAL SALVATION.
.

Everyone who is familiar with the Book of Jonah knows, one of the best answer that hell is exist or does not exist for the human race we find it in the Book of Jonah.
.

The Ninevites where probably the most wicked sinners in the whole world, their wickedness went up to God.

.
God promised destruction and hell for all Ninevites, NOT FOR THE REASON OF THEIR CONDEMNATION, but for the reason the Ninevites pay attention.
.
Because we are not yet perfect, we need as much warnings of hell as much we can get, not because God would throw any of His children to hell, but for the reason His children to pay attention.

.
Jonah 3:4; Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.
.

For the reason to pay attention God promised distraction and hell to all Ninevites.

.
Despite of all threats and promises of distractions and hell,
God provided His Universal Salvation and saved all Ninevites:
.
Jonah 4:11; And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and also many animals?
.
God promised destruction and hell to all Ninevites, and God provided Universal Salvation to the Ninevites.
.
.
The same principle applies to the warnings and promises of hell in the New Testament.

God does not change, the way God threatened and promised hell to all Ninevites and at the end saved them all, in the same way, God practically apart from a few people promise to the entire human race condemnation and hell, but with the same principle God will saves us all, if not, then Christ died on the cross for NOTHING.
.

Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
.

OTHER REASONS GOD DID NOT CONDEMNED THE NINEVITES AND WILL SAVE THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE:
.

1.On the cross Christ wiped out the sins of the whole world, as the results Universal Salvation of the Ninevites and the entire human race.
.

2.Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”)
.
If anyone doubt the above statements, please study the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
.
.
3. God permits evil and sins for the ONLY REASON for He could draw good out of evil and sins, so how could anyone even think, that good would be hell??? – That good is HEAVEN.
.

4.Everyone who is familiar with Catholic Soteriology knows, there is no such thing in Catholic Soteriology that even one person rejects God’s call to Eternal Life/Heaven and end up in hell. – Please study the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Predestination of the elect, which is a DE FIDE Dogma.

Predestination | Catholic Answers Encyclopedia

 

[CampionTheChampion]

A fascinating take on the subject. I wish you had not bolded and all capped so much though…it takes away from your writing. Are these you own thoughts and conclusion? It seems like you think that all are called to eternal life and that all who are called are eventually saved. Where did you get that idea from? Just curious.

 

[CampionTheChampion]

Lol. If universalism is true, you can still be rejected by Christ at the pearly gates and then burned for sinning and rejecting God. Sin has consequences, and God punishes sin.

So I wouldn’t let the possibility of all being saved lead to presumption.

 

[ShowersofRoses]

That doesn’t make any sense. If universalism is true, Gov would just be sent for some extra time in Purgatory and still let into Heaven.

Universalism means no rejection by God no matter how you act here on earth.