I’m not convinced that universalism is heresy

[christofirst]

Bishop Robert Barron of Los Angeles and the Word on Fire Ministries agrees with this too:

“I take the Balthasar view, which is not that we know if all people will be saved, or even if we expect all people will be saved. It’s merely that it’s legitimate to hope for universal salvation. Further, it’s a reasonable hope. It’s not just a hope against hope, a wild, unwarranted move. Rather, it’s grounded in what Christ accomplished on the Cross and in the resurrection. In that sense, there are reasonable grounds for the hope that all people might be saved. I’ve gotten in trouble with people for that because there are many who do want Hell to be really emphasized, but I don’t see that in John Paul II, in Benedict XVI, and certainly not in Pope Francis.”

From the book “To Light a Fire on the Earth,” by Robert Barron with John Allen Jr. If it is legitimate to hope for the possibility of universal salvation, I don’t see how the idea can be dismissed as heresy or nonsense. Obviously, many here disagree.

 

[Mintaka]

Re: “legitimate to hope” –

Well, obviously it’s legitimate to pray prayers like “O my Jesus… Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy.”

But is every soul going to follow Jesus’ lead?

Probably not. Because that’s the nature of free will.

If every soul freely chose to go to Heaven, that would be good.

If every soul was forced to go to Heaven and spend eternity with God, Heaven would also be an eternal prison. In fact, it would be Hell.

It is love of God and free choice that makes Heaven heavenly.

So of course it is legitimate to hope that all humans will get their act together and choose the good God. But if they don’t, it is individual humans who will be at fault, not God’s mercy and justice.

You can lead a horse to the Living Water, but you can’t make him drink; that is what would be cruel.

 

[steve-b]

Constantinople condemned the preexistence of souls.

1. That council was an ecumenical council. NOT just a local council.
2. universalism aka apocatastasis contradicts Jesus who when asked ,are only a few saved? He validated the questioner few are saved

Jesus can’t lie, as in, if hell is really no consequence for us, because all are saved in the end, He can’t and won’t scare us needlessly with something He knows isn’t a consequence for us. God would then be lying to us if He tried to snooker us vs telling us the truth.

AND

Just in case the thought is in someone’s mind about Jesus, and what He says,

Jesus gave us this about Himself

Jn 12:49
For I did not speak on my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

Jn 12:50
whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

Jn 14:10
The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

 

[TheLittleLady]

https://archive.org/details/OttFundamentalsOfCatholicDogma

I’d suggest you get yourself a copy of Ott’s “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma”

b) Christ’s Atonement does not extend to the fallen
angels

The teaching of Origen, according to which the restoration of all things
(apokatastasis ; cf. Acts, 3, 21) by virtue of Christ’s Atonement will also liberate
the fallen angels out of hell, was rejected as heresy by a Synod at Constantinople
(543). D 211. It contradicts the eternal nature of the pains of hell which is
clearly attested in Holy Writ. Cf. Mt. 25, 46 ; 18, 8 ; 3, 12 ; 2 Thess. 1 9,

 

[deMontfort]

Probably not a bad idea. It’s great for someone bound for monastic life, though.

 

[steve-b]

Bishop Robert Barron of Los Angeles and the Word on Fire Ministries agrees with this too:

“I take the Balthasar view, which is not that we know if all people will be saved, or even if we expect all people will be saved. It’s merely that it’s legitimate to hope for universal salvation. Further, it’s a reasonable hope. It’s not just a hope against hope, a wild, unwarranted move. Rather, it’s grounded in what Christ accomplished on the Cross and in the resurrection. In that sense, there are reasonable grounds for the hope that all people might be saved. I’ve gotten in trouble with people for that because there are many who do want Hell to be really emphasized, but I don’t see that in John Paul II, in Benedict XVI, and certainly not in Pope Francis.”

From the book “To Light a Fire on the Earth,” by Robert Barron with John Allen Jr. If it is legitimate to hope for the possibility of universal salvation, I don’t see how the idea can be dismissed as heresy or nonsense. Obviously, many here disagree.

(Emphasis mine)

“neither Hans Urs von Balthasar nor Fr. Robert Barron are “universalists,” as they are sometimes accused of being. Both taught hell as a “real possibility” emphasizing the fact that we just can’t know with “utter certitude”—to use Fr. Barron’s words—whether anyone is in hell. Neither ever taught we can know with that same “utter certitude” that everyone is going to be saved either.”

From: Are there souls in hell right now

IOW not knowing, doesn’t mean we get to fill in the blanks ourselves, either way. As for me, I’ll stick with what Jesus said when He was asked, Is it true only Few are saved . As we can see, He didn’t deny that, He validated that.

 

[christofirst]

Yes, you are free to stick with the notion that few are saved, just as I am free to hope and pray that hell will be empty.

Cardinal Walter Kasper, whom I know has his share of critics, offers this reflection on Balthasar and the Biblical passages on God’s universal salvific will (such as 1 Tim 2:3 and John 12:47), on the one hand, and the passages pointing to eternal damnation, like the one you quoted above, on the other hand. This is from his book, “Mercy: The essence of the Gospel and the Key to Christian Life”:

“According to von Balthasar, in the Bible we are dealing with two different series of assertions, both of which are to be taken seriously and which cannot be sublated into a neat, higher synthesis. According to him, we can only make progress if we take into account the literary genre of both series of statements. In both cases, we are not actually dealing with an anticipatory report of what will happen at the end of time. The assertions about universal salvation are statements of hope for all, but they are not assertions about the factual salvation of every individual. Conversely, the assertions about judgment and the statements about hell do not intend to say, about any one individual or about the majority of humankind, that factually they will be subjected to the pains of hell. Revelation has not identified the eternal damnation of any concrete individual; and the Church has never taught, in a dogmatically obligatory way, that any particular human being has been subjected to eternal damnation. We cannot say that with certainty even about Judas, who, however, betrayed Jesus and then subsequently judged himself by hanging.”

 

[Cruciferi]

Yes, you are free to stick with the notion that few are saved, just as I am free to hope and pray that hell will be empty.

It’s believed 1/3 of the Angels followed Lucifer. Humanity will likely be similar. I reject any notion that more will be condemned than saved.

 

[Fauken]

Do I hope Hell is empty? Sure. I don’t want anyone to be damned. But do I believe it is? No. I won’t guess how many are in Hell since that’s neither my business nor paygrade, but I’m sure there are souls in it.

 

[guanophore]

He already apologized. Kind of is beating a dead horse.

Sorry I was behind on the posts.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Have you read the New Testament? I note you only want Church teaching replies. That is a smart move if you are trying to avoid hell and damnation.

 

[steve-b]

Yes, you are free to stick with the notion that few are saved, just as I am free to hope and pray that hell will be empty.

I am NOT giving a NOTION, I’m quoting Jesus.

Is it okay to pray for all souls that everyone might be saved in our prayers? Sure.

christofirst:

Cardinal Walter Kasper, whom I know has his share of critics, offers this reflection on Balthasar and the Biblical passages on God’s universal salvific will (such as 1 Tim 2:3 and John 12:47), on the one hand, and the passages pointing to eternal damnation, like the one you quoted above, on the other hand. This is from his book, “Mercy: The essence of the Gospel and the Key to Christian Life”:

"According to von Balthasar, in the Bible we are dealing with two different series of assertions, both of which are to be taken seriously and which cannot be sublated into a neat, higher synthesis. According to him, we can only make progress if we take into account the literary genre of both series of statements. In both cases, we are not actually dealing with an anticipatory report of what will happen at the end of time. The assertions about universal salvation are statements of hope for all, but they are not assertions about the factual salvation of every individual.

Agreed. One should pray for everyone, not knowing who is saved or damned.

christofirst:

Conversely, the assertions about judgment and the statements about hell do not intend to say, about any one individual

True

christofirst:

or about the majority of humankind, that factually they will be subjected to the pains of hell.

he also needs to show that Jesus meant differently from what He actually said.

christofirst:

the Church has never taught, in a dogmatically obligatory way, that any particular human being has been subjected to eternal damnation** We cannot say that with certainty even about Judas, who, however, betrayed Jesus and then subsequently judged himself by hanging."

And the Church has never taught dogmatically that all are saved. So as we see, It goes both ways.

1. The CCC states this about HELL AND Few
2. NO NEED FOR ANY OF THAT teaching if everyone is saved…Right?
3. NO NEED FOR Jesus to say this if it is NOT true
   few are saved
   . Matthew 7:13-14
   . 13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, ἀπώλεια, and those who enter by it are many 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life i.e. eternal life , and those who find it are few. few = ὀλίγοι

Many in that context = as in the opposite of few, as in everyone else.

 

[Rob2]

A couple of thoughts which have come into my mind - - - - - - -

Many have no problems regarding the universalism of the Fall .

Many have problems with the universalism of salvation .

 

[Rob2]

In the words of the hymn attributed to St Francis Xavier - - - - - - - - - - -

My God, I love Thee; not because
I hope for heav’n thereby,
nor yet for fear that loving not
I might forever die;
but for that Thou didst all mankind
upon the cross embrace;
for us didst bear the nails and spear,
and manifold disgrace;

And griefs and torments numberless,
and sweat of agony;
e’en death itself, and all for man,
who was Thine enemy.
Then why, most loving Jesus Christ,
should I not love Thee well?
Not for the sake of winning heav’n,
nor any fear of hell;

Not with the hope of gaining aught,
nor seeking a reward,
but as Thyself hast loved me,
O ever-loving Lord!
E’en so I love Thee, and will love,
and in Thy praise will sing,
solely because Thou art my God
and my eternal King!

My preferred translation is that of Gerard Manley Hopkins S.J.

O God, I love thee, I love thee-
Not out of hope of heaven for me
Nor fearing not to love and be
In the everlasting burning.
Thou, thou, my Jesus, after me
Didst reach thine arms out dying,
For my sake sufferedst nails, and lance,
Mocked and marred countenance,
Sorrows passing number,
Sweat and care and cumber,
Yea and death, and this for me,
And thou couldst see me sinning:
Then I, why should not I love thee,
Jesu, so much in love with me?
Not for heaven’s sake; not to be
Out of hell by loving thee;
Not for any gains I see;
But just the way that thou didst me
I do love and I will love thee:
What must I love thee, Lord, for then?
For being my king and God. Amen.

 

[MaryClare]

So you are basically saying you believe everyone goes to heaven no matter what they have done? Jesus did die for all our sins. It was like he gift wrapped a present, marked it with the word, salvation, and left it freely for no reason at all in your lap. You have the right to either not open this gift, or to open it. You are not assumed to get this gift without opening it and unwrapping it and accepting the free offering of faith and conviction and belief in Jesus Christ as the son of God.

 

[christofirst]

It’s been proposed, though I don’t have the time to look it up now, that Purgatory can in some way satisfy the need for justice that I acknowledge in your post, Gov. Maybe a very long and arduous Purgatory for some of us (like me).

 

[MaryClare]

I must point out, God is God. God is judge. I am not God, I am not judge. I neither want nor need that kind of responsibility. Many Christians and some of other faiths think that they have the right to judge but they do not. Ultimately God knows the heart. He knows who has commited mortal sins, he knows about things such as mental health conditions and full consent. He judges, and he is the just God. I am glad its his job and not mine frankly. I’d be less than charitable if it was. Because I am human.

 

[steve-b]

Exactly. And don’t think that point isn’t lost on ALL those who go in that direction, and argue in that direction.
(name removed by moderator):

I could break into a zoo snort a line of coke off an alligator, steal a bunch of chips and candy bars, break into a ATM, go to a strip club, run from the law, change my indentify, and become an Elvis impersonator wedding minister.

I could never go to Mass again or confession because there would be no point of it all.

Hoping there are more people than we think in Heaven then Hell isn’t bad in of itself as it is bad that some individuals really believe that God is speaking out of two mouth’s.

Exactly
(name removed by moderator):

There is universal salvation for all people’s but it’s through Christ and his Church.

I would just add, providing one does NOT die in mortal sin.
(name removed by moderator):

I just can’t believe God went through all the trouble and torture just to throw his hands up in the air and say eh I don’t care anymore everyone’s welcome.

You’re correct in not believing in that.
(name removed by moderator):

That’s my issue it doesn’t make sense and it negates the reason for a saviour, the right religion, repentance and obedience.

I hope my grandfather goes to heaven I have done everything in my capacity to help him but the decision is his and the judgement is up to God.

Prayers ascending for your grandfather

 

[steve-b]

It’s been proposed, though I don’t have the time to look it up now, that Purgatory can in some way satisfy the need for justice that I acknowledge in your post, Gov. Maybe a very long and arduous Purgatory for some of us (like me).

and purgatory is for those souls that don’t die in mortal sin. Those in purgatory are saved. They are then counted in with the “few”.

 

[MaryClare]

My mother believes a heresay that all souls go to purgatory, and no one goes to hell, or that people are reincarnated and forced to pay for their sins. She does not believe in hell and she is a Roman Catholic.