I accept Birth Control, and that's not gonna change!

[St.Eric]

All one has to do is look around their church and see the 1, 2, and 3 child families. Hmmmm…at least the OP has the courage to face the slamming he/she is receiving on this thread and won’t have to tell any of his/her children, that they were an “oops”.

Your post points to the sad state that the church and the Western world is in today. (but on the other had, why do you assume most are using ABC, when it could be that they are all really dedicated to NFP? Food for thought.)

I don’t think being unfaithful to the church and shouting it out is courageous. We will see how courageous any act of willful, continual, proud, disobiedience is on the day of general judgement. This life is but a wisp of thin air compared to eternity. How sad is it that any children are considered an “oops”? Children, or rather, new souls, are the epitome of the sexual union between man and woman. Too bad they are minimalized by the modern mode of thought.

 

[Leeta]

So your RCIA people will certainly not get the lived Christian witness, even if you don’t tell them you are contracepting. The Holy Spirit will not be able to work through you as well, if at all.
There will be something vital missing in your testimony and people will be able to sense it, even if they can’t articulate why.

The Church says that those in leadership positions are to be living witnesses of the truth. So if you are refusing to live out the Church’s teaching on marriage, your witness will be corrupted. It is called giving scandal, and it will cause those weaker in faith to also stumble and fall in living out Christian marriage even if they never directly learn of it. Truth has a way of manifesting itself.

What would you have an honest priest do who sexually abuses children , even if no one knows that he is abusing teenagers? Should he resign and tell the Bishop what he has done, or should he go on abusing the children and continue to be a pastor? What would be the right and honest thing for him to do?

If abstaining is difficult, which actually you should be prepared to do, since there are temporary or permanent circumstances which often or could arise which will make marital intimacy impossible, then be a man and accept the responsibility and the sacrifice of raising the children lovingly that God may send you. What if one of you is hospitalized or is on a business trip? If in the military, what if the husband is deployed overseas for a year? What if one of you has an accident which brings on permanent paralysis or a coma?
For better or for worse, in sickness and in health, with our mutual fertility…until death do us part.

By the way, God has blessed us with 7 children, from 5 to 23. I had two in my early and mid forty’s. Good health is the key and there are ways to attain and keep it. The children are a great joy and lots of fun. I especially enjoyed the baby years after I discovered ecological breastfeeding. My first are twins. They broke me in, so to speak. You know most have just one baby at a time and it isn’t so much trouble to adjust to this new person in your life when they come one at a time.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Again, I open it up to you, as I would like to hear more. Should I continue with RCIA, do you think? Should I continue to consider myself, and to call myself, Catholic? Or, if my beliefs concerning contraception are not to change at all, would the Anglican Church be better for me?

I am interested in your views.

Noma:

As every one has said, it is a grave matter to leave the Church, as it is a grave matter to be engaged in obstinate heresy. It would be far better if you would conside the claims of the Church throughout the ages on the issue of Contraception and decide if the uninterrupted witness is enough to merit submission on your part. The fact that the Anglican Communion and others have changed their mind in the 20th Century and have taught contrary to that uninterrupted teaching of the Church does not mean the witness is uninterrupted.

If you are talking about the Aglican Communion of which The Episcopal Church is a part, I beg you to read Pope Leo’s Bull on the matter (Apostolicae Curae) and to consider the Re-Invalidating effects on even valid orders of ordaining women “priests” and consecrating women “bishops”, which means they can’t be intending to do what the Church does when the Church ordains priests and consecrates bishops.

If you are insisting on leaving the Catholic church, you might wish to look at the Orthodox who will ask you to renounce your Catholicism, but who will have Valid Orders and Valid Sacraments.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

True to a point, but most priests these days are well aware of the Nomas of the Church. A most common counseling problem. Sometimes I hark back to the sixties when I was a know it all teenager. I went to my priest in confession and said so what’s wrong with abortion anyway? Seems people have the right. His answer was to tell me I could not remain in the Church that way, to leave and not come back til I grew up a bit. Hey, but you know what? I grew up quick- three seconds and I was recanting.

taquilamac:

The problem is that I have a nagging suspiscion that his priest might have some of the some problems with the Church’s teaching on the sinfulness and harmfulness of artificial contraception that he does. This comes from the fact that he’s had several in depth conversations with his priest on this itopic and the priest still hears his confessions, grants him absolution and gives him communion and has him directing his parish’s RCIA program.

I still remember when Fr. Joseph Fessio and several others wanted to put on a celebration of the Encyclical Humanae Vitae at USF on the 10 Anniversary of the Encyclical in July, 1978. He was not allowed to hold the celebration, but the University allowed the St Ignatius Institute to hold a more general symposium on the Infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church during the same time period which included sessions on Humanae Vitae. It’s just that they did not want to allow it to look as if they were exclusively celebrating of commemorating Humanae Vitae .

That wasn’t all that long ago,…

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[KathleenElsie]

All one has to do is look around their church and see the 1, 2, and 3 child families. Hmmmm…at least the OP has the courage to face the slamming he/she is receiving on this thread and won’t have to tell any of his/her children, that they were an “oops”.

And sitting in the pew you “know” that those around you are using ABC. How about those without children? Or maybe those that have gone through the heartbreak of miscarriage. Don’t judge from the outside.

Yes some are using ABC but unless you are one of the two people that know for sure don’t judge. The judgment is God’s.

Pray for those that are not following the Church. Pray for those that are following the Church. Then there is no sin of judgment, but charity for all.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Nona do those that you teach know you post here? Do they know your handle" here?

If so then they know you disagree with what you are teaching. This is something to pray about.

 

[PrayTwice]

I am very late to this thread and certainly can’t state the Church’s teaching and its nature (doctrine, not discipline) better than anyone else, but do have a thing or two to offer you, Noma. Hopefully it’ll help.

But I will say that I have heard all the reasons you have presented and more, and remain unconvinced that contraception is intrinsically wrong.

If I am repeating what others have said, I apologize; this is such a long thread that while I tried to read it all before posting it’s possible that I’m being redundant. It is not my intention to “pile on”. That said, I ask you: So what? Does it matter, in the end, whether you remain unconvinced or not? I mean that seriously. Since when must we be convinced in order to obey and submit?

Is it preferable, strongly so, to understand and agree? Of course, absolutely. We must inform our consciences. But in the end we either believe that the Church is what she claims to be, or not. If it is indeed **The **Church that Christ Himself not only started but continues to lead, then she (the Church) gets to decide what is and is not a matter of discipline versus a matter of faith/morals. Not us. And therefore it’s not just ex-cathedra teachings that bind us. CHRIST, THROUGH HIS CHURCH, has told you, Noma, that contraception is instrinsically, mortally sinful. Do you believe that - meaning, do you believe that the teaching is in fact from Christ?

Clearly not. I believe that you would obey it, whether or not you understand or even agree with it, if you truly believed that this teaching is of Christ. You would not require Our Lord to prove to you, were He standing in front of you, that what He is teaching you about contraception is an ex-cathedra statement about faith and morals (for example). He would teach and you would obey. Perhaps you’d ask some questions of Him first, but in the end you would submit to Him, would you not? Out of love for Him and fear for your soul?

So, as in may other questions these days about Church teaching, this boils down to a question of the Church’s authority.

This reminds me of how I handle certain situations with my kids. I have three. Now, I always attempt to explain to them why I ask them to do certain things (go to mass every Sunday, for example). Do I want them to understand and agree and be convinced? Yes. Positively, absolutely.

But guess what? They’re going anyway, LOL. I’m the mom and I know what’s best for them and I get to decide. I am the authority on the matter and they must - and do - obey. Eventually they will be adults making up their own minds and because I want them to WANT to go long after I no longer get to “order” them to do so, I want them to see the wisdom and beauty and love behind the Church’s admonition that we attend mass every weekend (to continue with my example).

But they are my children and they don’t get to decide whether or not I’m serious about their going to mass. I get to decide that; I’m the mother.

It’s the same with the Church and you. She is your mother. She gets to decide what is a matter of discipline and what is a matter of faith and morals. Not you. Christ promised to lead her into all truth. Is He true to His promise? Do you think He has broken that promise with regards to the Church’s teaching on sexuality?

These are the questions you need to be asking yourself, it seems to me…

 

[PrayTwice]

I had to cut my reply because it was too long. Here is the rest:

I will also say that I may, based on one argument, revise my and my partner’s practice concerning contraception, or how I would approach it (my wife would not be open to removing contraception, though I would try), not because I think contraception is wrong, but simply out of respect for the Church, that I should respect it even when it teaches something that is not correct. It may in the end do me little harm to cease contraception, compared to the rewards of obeying the Church no matter what (as one would a father, even when sometimes he is wrong).

Exactly! Yes.

As for RCIA, I will finish up this year (as I am also a sponsor to one of the initiates), but may not return until I have resolved this dilemma.

I would agree with that assessment. I would also urge you not to pile one mortal sin onto another: refrain from receiving our Lord in the Eucharist, unless you first confess this sin and receive absolution. You are doing yourself more harm than good, as St Paul said in First Corinthians, chapter 11, verses 26-30:

“For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.”

Don’t take a chance on this one, Noma. Don’t tell yourself it’s okay. Don’t give yourself the authority to make this call.It’s not worth the risk. Your soul is too precious for you to roll the dice on this one. This isn’t Las Vegas. Go to mass, for sure. I’m not saying you shouldn’t, or that you should leave the Church, your Mother. But out of concern for you, I urge you: don’t receive communion while you’re practicing ABC.

You’ll be a better Catholic for it…

 

[tequilamac]

taquilamac:

The problem is that I have a nagging suspiscion that his priest might have some of the some problems with the Church’s teaching on the sinfulness and harmfulness of artificial contraception that he does. This comes from the fact that he’s had several in depth conversations with his priest on this itopic and the priest still hears his confessions, grants him absolution and gives him communion and has him directing his parish’s RCIA program.

I still remember when Fr. Joseph Fessio and several others wanted to put on a celebration of the Encyclical Humanae Vitae at USF on the 10 Anniversary of the Encyclical in July, 1978. He was not allowed to hold the celebration, but the University allowed the St Ignatius Institute to hold a more general symposium on the Infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church during the same time period which included sessions on Humanae Vitae. It’s just that they did not want to allow it to look as if they were exclusively celebrating of commemorating Humanae Vitae .

That wasn’t all that long ago,…

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

Michael- in reviewing your posts, I see that yu have a “nagging suspicion of priests” in general. This is not surprising since you belong to a Church that rejects the apostolic succession of our priests. Bottom line is your hostility toward the Church masked as concern for it’s people is not particularly helpful when people have probles such as hers. I find it interesting that ou are not more intersted in undermining the faith in your own Church clergy, women and all, rather than coming here and working on ours. What this means is your opinions of what people should do in these circumstances of conscience crises loses credibility as you obviously are operating from an ulterior motive.

 

[MrIrish]

Absolutely not. On the contrary, I teach, in line with the current teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, that contraception is a grave matter, and if done with knowledge of its gravity, and of one’s own free will, it constitutes mortal sin, and that someone in mortal sin should not take part in communion until they have confessed this sin to a Priest.

Do as I say, not as I do?

So from this post you admit that you are committing a mortal sin, meaning that you choose Hell over God? What’s the matter with you?

 

[Denise_Shae]

I don’t know if priests are still doing this today, but I remember that for many years, a lot of priests have been telling penitents, in the Confessional (RE: the use of ABC): “Let your conscience be your guide”.

Sadly, I think statements like that, made by priests, are very dangerous.

When a priest made such a comment to me, about 20 years ago, I came away feeling very confused - like things were unresolved, because to me (for the most part); something is either right or wrong.
Also, my conscience is not infallible, whereas the Teachings of the Catholic Church are infallible.

God Bless!

 

[tequilamac]

I don’t know if priests are still doing this today, but I remember that for many years, a lot of priests have been telling penitents, in the Confessional (RE: the use of ABC): “Let your conscience be your guide”.

Sadly, I think statements like that, made by priests, are very dangerous.

When a priest made such a comment to me, about 20 years ago, I came away feeling very confused - like things were unresolved, because to me (for the most part); something is either right or wrong.
Also, my conscience is not infallible, whereas the Teachings of the Catholic Church are infallible.

God Bless!

Sorry they have to. What would you rather they did? They can tell someone until they are blue in the face what the teachings of the Church are. If a person decides to put the righteousness of “their conscience” ahead of Church teachings, this is what they will do.
Unless it is a public scandal, the priest must give them communion I think. The only case for publicity one can make here is that the person is RCIA director. He should probably not have that happening. But the fact is I get tired of hearing it is the priest’s fault he is not doing his job. This person here is not doing their job. The priest is not using birth control, is not teaching RCIA while defying Church teaching, is not receiving communion while in mortal sin. She is. Therefore she is not doing her job and the the fault is hers and hers alone. It is her conscience, she is aware of what the Church teaches, and she chooses to oppose it. How in the world can it be made a case of the priest being incompetent? **It is her sin, not the priest’s. **

Really, I think everyone in the Church needs to review who is responsible for the actions they commit. I just finished a thread where I was told it is the fault of the US Bishops that people are still insisting on being EM’s when they know the Vatican does not approve.

No it is not the fault of the Bishops. It is the fault of the laity insisting on doing what they know the Vatican does not want. The claim is it is the fault of the Bishops because they do not stop the practice. When has the Church ever stopped anyone from sin or opposition? It will tell us something is wrong. It is up to our own God given free will to follow them.

If my neighbor and I get in a fight tonight, my priest through mental telepathy is not going to run to my house and hold my fists back from punching the guy. That is my job and if I punch the guy, knowing it is a sin, I cannot blame the priest for not stopping me from doing the right thing.

The priests, the Vatican, the Bishop’s are simply not responsible for the actions we do.

We do not go to Mass every Sunday and say " I confess I have sinned through my priest’s fault, my priest’s most grievous fault" do we?

Apparently from what is being said in this forum, we are secretly thinking it when we make an act of contrition, but we don’t say it anywhere except here I guess.

 

[Denise_Shae]

Sorry they have to. What would you rather they did? They can tell someone until they are blue in the face what the teachings of the Church are. If a person decides to put the righteousness of “their conscience” ahead of Church teachings, this is what they will do.
Unless it is a public scandal, the priest must give them communion I think. The only case for publicity one can make here is that the person is RCIA director. He should probably not have that happening. But the fact is I get tired of hearing it is the priest’s fault he is not doing his job. This person here is not doing their job. The priest is not using birth control, is not teaching RCIA while defying Church teaching, is not receiving communion while in mortal sin. She is. Therefore she is not doing her job and the the fault is hers and hers alone. It is her conscience, she is aware of what the Church teaches, and she chooses to oppose it. How in the world can it be made a case of the priest being incompetent? It is her sin, not the priest’s.

Really, I think everyone in the Church needs to review who is responsible for the actions they commit. I just finished a thread where I was told it is the fault of the US Bishops that people are still insisting on being EM’s when they know the Vatican does not approve. Not it is not the fault of the Bishops. It is the fault of the laity insisting on doing what they know the Vatican does not want. The claim is it is the fault of the Bishops because they do not stop the practice. When has the Church ever stopped anyone from sin or opposition? It will tell us something is wrong. It is up to our won ged given free will to follow them. If my neighbor and I get in a fight tonight, my priest through mental telepathy is not going to run to my house and hold my fists back from punching the guy. That is my job and if I punch the guy, knowing it is a sin, I cannot blame the priest for not stopping me from doing the right thing. The priests, the Vatican, the Bishop’s are simply not responsible for the actions we do. We do not go to Mass every Sunday and say " I confess I have sinned through my priest’s fault, my priest’s most grievous fault" do we? Apparently from what is being said int his forum, we are secretly thinking it when we make of contrition, but we don’t say it anywhere except here I guess.

RE: “What would you rather they did?”​

I don’t know what the correct answer is.
Does the Church have a difinitive teaching on what priests should or should not tell a penitent who insists the teachings of the Church on ABC are "Man-Made and plan to continue to use it?

I’m not saying that the priests, the Vatican and Bishops are to be held responsible for someone else’s choice to use ABC.
All they can do is present the Church’s teaching to the penitent (or even the congregation) on how/why using ABC is a sin.

I just think using, “Let your conscience be your guide” isn’t exactly informative.

FYI: My closest friends are priests, and I’ve never held them accountable for other people’s sins. I’ve always supported them and always will; as well as all priests.

God Bless!

 

[tequilamac]

RE: “What would you rather they did?”​

I don’t know what the correct answer is.
Does the Church have a difinitive teaching on what priests should or should not tell a penitent who insists the teachings of the Church on ABC are "Man-Made and plan to continue to use it?

I’m not saying that the priests, the Vatican and Bishops are to be held responsible for someone else’s choice to use ABC.
All they can do is present the Church’s teaching to the penitent (or even the congregation) on how/why using ABC is a sin.

I just think using, “Let your conscience be your guide” isn’t exactly informative.

FYI: My closest friends are priests, and I’ve never held them accountable for other people’s sins. I’ve always supported them and always will; as well as all priests.

God Bless!

I am sorry. I still stand by what I said. Every time anyone posts on this forum about a matter of a lay person committing sin, everyone’s attention goes straight to the Vatican, the Bishops and the priests. The claim is immediately made that the clergy is not doing their job, one way or another. And so immediately, the discussion off track and point. We need as a Church to stop doing this. We need to take responsibility for our own conscience, our own actions and our own sins. This person is not sinning because of the clergy or how the catechism is written. She is an RCIA director and she KNOWS what it says. And still she does it. The Church teaches: we must follow our conscience. The Church teaches: it is a serious sin to use birth control. The Church teaches us we are not supposed to receive Communion while in serious sin. The Church teaches us to die in serious sin without repentance means we will go to hell.

Therefore: it seems that people who know all this are willing to risk their immortal soul and go to Hell for eternity. Because they have chosen their sinful conscience over Church teaching. Now what exactly are the priests supposed to do in the case of such hardness of heart? Her heart is hardened to herself you see. She has no thought or concern for her ultimate destiny. Maybe due to a lack of faith, maybe not. But one simply cannot make a case that it is anyone’s fault but hers. And obviously her priest is aware there is nothing he can say or do at this time to change it except pray.

 

[Denise_Shae]

I am sorry. I still stand by what I said. Every time anyone posts on this forum about a matter of a lay person committing sin, everyone’s attention goes straight to the Vatican, the Bishops and the priests. The claim is immediately made that the clergy is not doing their job, one way or another. And so immediately, the discussion off track and point. We need as a Church to stop doing this. We need to take responsibility for our own conscience, our own actions and our own sins. This person is not sinning because of the clergy or how the catechism is written. She is an RCIA director and she KNOWS what it says. And still she does it. The Church teaches: we must follow our conscience. The Church teaches: it is a serious sin to use birth control. The Church teaches us we are not supposed to receive Communion while in serious sin. The Church teaches us to die in serious sin without repentance means we will go to hell.

Therefore: it seems that people who know all this are willing to risk their immortal soul and go to Hell for eternity. Because they have chosen their sinful conscience over Church teaching. Now what exactly are the priests supposed to do in the case of such hardness of heart? Her heart is hardened to herself you see. She has no thought or concern for her ultimate destiny. Maybe due to a lack of faith, maybe not. But one simply cannot make a case that it is anyone’s fault but hers. And obviously her priest is aware there is nothing he can say or do at this time to change it except pray.

Actually, you know what? I was “Off-Topic”, here.
I wasn’t referring to OP in my post. (BTW: The OP’er is male)

And I was not trying to pick a fight with you. I happen to agree with what you posted.

The only reason I have a problem with the “Let your conscience be your guide.” statement is because many people, in my age group, were very poorly catechised. That’s all.

It was only by the Grace of God, I came back to the Church in 1996 and started studying the Faith on my own, that I found out ABC wasn’t simply a “Man-made” teaching.

Anyway, I’m sincerely sorry if I upset you.

God Bless!

 

[Julianna]

Your post points to the sad state that the church and the Western world is in today. (but on the other had, why do you assume most are using ABC, when it could be that they are all really dedicated to NFP? Food for thought.)

I don’t think being unfaithful to the church and shouting it out is courageous. We will see how courageous any act of willful, continual, proud, disobiedience is on the day of general judgement. This life is but a wisp of thin air compared to eternity. How sad is it that any children are considered an “oops”? Children, or rather, new souls, are the epitome of the sexual union between man and woman. Too bad they are minimalized by the modern mode of thought.

I believe I stated that the OP had courage to “face the slamming” he/she was in for…by the statement he/she made. Well look at 50 - 60 yrs ago. My dad was one of 7, my f-i-l was one of 10, my m=i=l was one of 6…my husband was 1 of 9…not too many of those around now days are there? Plain observation. No, those folks are not going to shout it to roof tops…they would be crazy if they did. But dollars to donuts, I doubt seriously if they ar taking their temperature and waiting for the right moment. Women do go to tupperware parties, candle parties, and they “do” talk.

There is another way to look at ABC. Welcome to the life of the American Catholic women. It’s the economy…that drives the conscience. If a woman is working all day and has to come home to 10 kids…geez louise…how is that good for the kids? Unless her husband is Bill Gates or a recent lottery winner…not to mention excellent insurance coverage…again…raising 10 kids is way more difficult nowadays. Not impossible, but difficult. Mini vans are getting “smaller”…you can’t put 6 car seats in a mini van…and gas is going up again. Is Catholic school tuition going down?..not hardly…religious are hard to find to teach anymore, and lay teachers want more money, not to mention retirement and benefits. Again, it’s the economy.

An…ooops by the way is the “unexpected” pregnancy. Both of my children were “planned” right to the day…when we could afford it, and when my DH health coverage kicked in and I finally had a full time job. I didn’t think the American tax payers should foot the hospital bill because my DH and wanted children. Maybe it’s my logical approach…

If I were the OP, I’d get out of RCIA…simply because I would find it difficult to teach something that I didn’t have total accord with. I used to teach…long time ago, but because it was CCD and children…we never discussed ABC.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Michael- in reviewing your posts, I see that yu have a “nagging suspicion of priests” in general. This is not surprising since you belong to a Church that rejects the apostolic succession of our priests. Bottom line is your hostility toward the Church masked as concern for it’s people is not particularly helpful when people have probles such as hers. I find it interesting that ou are not more intersted in undermining the faith in your own Church clergy, women and all, rather than coming here and working on ours. What this means is your opinions of what people should do in these circumstances of conscience crises loses credibility as you obviously are operating from an ulterior motive.

Taquilamac:

Nothing could be further from the truth. I know that the Catholic Church is the supplier and the determiner of Valid Orders, and there isn’t an honest Anglo-Catholic who would claim otherwise. That’s not the issue here. And, Your attempt to use something that no one else here has ever accused me of to change the subject can only be seen as an an attempt to obscure a long standing problem of submission and obedience in the American Catholic Church.

I’m sorry, but the situation at the University of San Francisco is one I observed myself, and the former director of the St. Ignatius Institute, the sponsor of the Symposium on the Infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church, is still a friend of mine, along with some others who were involved in planning or speaking at the Symposium…

There is no one I admire more than priests and bishops who are faithful to their charge and who try to act as shepherds and “Bishops of Souls”, and you will see that I trumpet their works as well. At the same time, I’m very much aware that our souls are in their hands, and that, if they are derilict in their duty, they can lead a many into perdition, or give such a poor witness that many would reject the Gospel who might otherwise have been saved.

If you’ve read my posts, you will have seen that I’ve been to hell, and I don’t want to go there again; neither do I want to cause or allow someone to go there because of my negligence or my direct actions.

*"Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. If I say to the wicked, `You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life.

Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life."
Ezekiel 3:17-21 RSV*

If I done anything to offend you, I apologize and beg your forgiveness, but I don’t believe that I done anything to draw the ire which you’ve directed at me every chance you’ve gotten. Please cease and desist. I’m not questioning your right to post here or your right to have people listen to you free from background noise. Please give me the same consideration.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Responding to :
Re: I accept Birth Control, and that’s not gonna change! Post # 210
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1674376&postcount=210

Taquilamac:

That’s what they have to do - You might even call it “Make-up” for all the years where Humanae Vitae wasn’t taught, or you could say that the “Broken Record” is necessitated by the gravity of the situation (reread the Scripture in Ezekiel). I was there when the University refused to allow a celebration of the release of Humanae Vitae and was forced to yield on Symposeum on on the Infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium. The Director of the St. Ignatius Institute, Fr. Joseph Fessio and I are still friends, along with couple of others.

And, Then there’s the Canadian National Council of Bishops who refused to publish or teach Humanae Vitae until several years had passed, and several of the bishops had been replaced.

While I was at USF, the priests from the Campus Ministry routinely counselled and taught things which were contrary to the teaching of the Church, esp. during my Freshman year, and that included premarital sex and ABC.

Every so often, I still run into priests who were ordained in the 1960’s-70’s, or who went to “Liberal” Seminaries, who try to teach these or refuse to teach the Church’s teaching as true.

In those situations, Ezekiel 3 and 33 are clear as to who should be held responsible, and it’s not the poor Catholics who are following the misguided priests, although the Lord still holds them at least partially responsible. This is isn’t as obvious as punching someone in the nose which is Assault and Battery and which would generally have no excuse.

According to the Scriptures in Ezekiel, the priest is to try to discourage him by reminding him that he’s in a state of Mortal Sin and would be committing sacrilege. Since the sin is private (He’s not screaming this from the mountaintops like the politicians on Abortion and the other Life Issues), the priest would pretty much have to give him communion and continue reminding him privately afterwards, unless he says or does something publicly on the issue.

Taquilamac, we are all responsible for the acts we do, whether they’re acts of commission or those of ommission, but the priests and bishops are responsible to insure that the sheep entrusted to their care are completely and thoroughly catechized on all the major aspects of the Catholic Faith. From the questions I’ve read here, and heard elsewhere, I can’t honestly say that has been done or is being done with any consistency.

That’s why I substituted the Baltimore Catechism and a Bible for some “feel-good” claptrap they were scheduled to use some 23 years ago when I was teaching a confirmation class at a Catholic Church in the LA Archdiocese. I just couldn’t see teaching a Confirmation Class with a text that seemed to offer nothing in the way of Doctrine. The scary thing was that the Text I had replaced was part of a Doctrine Free series the kids had used for the whole time they were in CCD.

Although we are all responsible for whatever sins we might commit, whether by Acts of Commision or Acts of Mission, priests and bishops are responsible to ensure that we are completely and thoroughly instructed in the Catholic Faith, while proclaiming the Gospel of Repentence and New Life in Jesus Christ to any who might be willing to hear.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[tequilamac]

Taquilamac:

Nothing could be further from the truth. I know that the Catholic Church is the supplier and the determiner of Valid Orders, and there isn’t an honest Anglo-Catholic who would claim otherwise. That’s not the issue here. And, Your attempt to use something that no one else here has ever accused me of to change the subject can only be seen as an an attempt to obscure a long standing problem of submission and obedience in the American Catholic Church.

I’m sorry, but the situation at the University of San Francisco is one I observed myself, and the former director of the St. Ignatius Institute, the sponsor of the Symposium on the Infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church, is still a friend of mine, along with some others who were involved in planning or speaking at the Symposium…

There is no one I admire more than priests and bishops who are faithful to their charge and who try to act as shepherds and “Bishops of Souls”, and you will see that I trumpet their works as well. At the same time, I’m very much aware that our souls are in their hands, and that, if they are derilict in their duty, they can lead a many into perdition, or give such a poor witness that many would reject the Gospel who might otherwise have been saved.

If you’ve read my posts, you will have seen that I’ve been to hell, and I don’t want to go there again; neither do I want to cause or allow someone to go there because of my negligence or my direct actions.

If I done anything to offend you, I apologize and beg your forgiveness, but I don’t believe that I done anything to draw the ire which you’ve directed at me every chance you’ve gotten. Please cease and desist. I’m not questioning your right to post here or your right to have people listen to you free from background noise. Please give me the same consideration.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

Please give Catholics on this board some consideration also Michael. I’ve read through your posts. And every chance you get, you slip suspicion of either the motives of the priests or the behavior of the priests into the subject. This is not helpful to the Church or to anyone else.
Pope Benedict XVI has made it clear that this is a time of Church rebuilding and restoration. Believe me, it will not be done without it’s priests.

It is time for the supposedly “learned and wise” to give respect and credence to that office instituted by Christ Himself who is our High Priest. For the continual sing song that all the problems people have following Church teachings is a result of priests being either dissident as you suggested on one thread, or not knowing or believing in Church teaching themselves as suggested here by someone this thread is first incorrect and then an insult to Christ.
Because there have been bad priests does not give the laity the continual right to disrespect the office of priest.

Now I understand that you have a priest as a best friend. I have an anglican as a best friend. That does not make me an expert on Anglicanism any more than your knowledge of the Church makes you an expert on Catholicism. I know many an atheist College professor who knows everything about the Church and knows absolutely nothing at all.

Catholics are in a unique position. They have a unique and specialized walk. And they must talk it and walk it. No one who is not Catholic, no matter how well intentioned or learned can understand what being Catholic is really all about. More than that, they cannot understand at all what a parishioner’s relationship to their parish priest is all about. And yes, I find your constant inserting of suspicions of priests into your posts extremely, extremely insulting, not just to the priests but to me and any Catholic on this board and I ask YOU to cease and desist in your feeble attempts to assist people be insisting they cannot trust the motives, intentions or education of their priests.

These priests have been ordained by Christ. Bottom line. Every single one of them. That credential is stronger than yours of life experience of trying to decide who has the truth. They know already. That is why they have given their entire life without reserve to the Church.

When you have done that, committed all of yourself to the Church, maybe I won’t be so insulted when you bash the priests, Michael.

 

[noma]

Nona do those that you teach know you post here? Do they know your handle" here?

If so then they know you disagree with what you are teaching. This is something to pray about.

No they do not. I don’t think they know that this website exists.