I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[Ozzie]

MariaG:

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

OK, since you want to ignore James’ preface, “I will SHOW you my faith by my works,” then tell me, by what works then are we justified? He makes reference to Abraham and Isaac, does the Lord require of us to sacrifice up one of our children? Pax and Jimmy Akin say these “works” are “love” and “hope.” That’s awfully ambiguous and subjective for our justification to hang on. Like “faith,” anyone can SAY they have “love,” and they have “hope.” So now we must go through a whole process of defining love and hope? And just how much love and hope must a person demonstrate before God will finally justifiy him?

You have corrupted the gospel. It is through the ONE ACT of Jesus Christ (the cross) that men are MADE righteous, i.e., justified (read Rom. 5:19). For this reason justification is a GIFT through faith alone (Rom. 3:19-31). If its by works at all, then it is no longer “a gift” but a reward, a wage paid. And that is not what Scripture says.

p.s. Please note, the first one is talking about salvation. The second verse is talking about justification.

Justification is a part of salvation. Salvation includes the forgiveness of ALL sins and the free gifts of justification and eternal life. All because of Christ’s ONE ACT of righteousnes (the cross). You rob from His glory.

 

[Sarah_Jane]

“Justification is a part of salvation. Salvation includes the forgiveness of ALL sins and the free gifts of justification and eternal life. All because of Christ’s ONE ACT of righteousnes (the cross). You rob from His glory.”

“Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men.” (CCC, 1992)

“You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.” (St. Augustine)

“With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.” (CCC, 2007)

 

[midwest_mom]

According to my daughters 6th grade Baltimore Catechism “Sanctifying grace is that grace which confers on our souls a new life, that is, a sharing in the life of God Himself.” “Actual grace is a supernatural help of God which enlightens our mind and strengthens our will to do good and to avoid evil.”

I know this is a very simplistic statement. If we love Christ and want to share in life with God, doing good works will come naturally. We will do them to please God. We will do them because Jesus asked us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.

If we are doing good works only for what we will get in return, we will get nothing. If we don’t do any good works, than we are not living the life of Christ.

6th grade religion has been very good for this mother of a 6th grader. It has reminded me of much.

 

[Ozzie]

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men" [Rom. 5:18). Justification is the result of only ONE man’s ONE act of righteousness, and that of the Lord Jesus Christ - His sacrificial death on the cross.

twf responds: “These verses have nothing to do with how we are justified, they teach why we can be justified. We are justified because of Christ’s one work, but that says nothing of how justification works on the individual level. Your reasoning eliminates the need for even personal faith!”

Rom. 5:18 expresses the “results” of the acts of two men. The first is Adam’s one transgression in the Garden which resulted in condemnation to ALL men. This of course was real and universal. The second Man’s act is Jesus Christ’s on the cross. It resulted in justification to all men. Adam’s one transgression effected all who are born of Him. Obviously that includes the whole human race. NONE are exempt. Christ’s one act of righteousness effects all who are “born again” in Him. This being accomplished through personal faith in Him. Christ’s work on the cross has the potential to save, even justify ALL men, since He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 Jn. 2:2), but it is only those who personally put their faith in Him that eternally benefit from the results of His ONE ACT of righteousness.

Rom. 5:18 does not teach how we “can” be justified. No more than it says that through Adam’s one transgression all men “can” be condemned. In this verse both the condemnation and the justification are absolute results. It reveals why all men are condemned, *i.e., *Adam’s one act of transgression, and why the believer is justified, i.e., Christ’s ONE ACT of righteousness.

Of course Paul is not teaching universal justification. He laid out his premise previously in Romans chapter three where he reveals the "righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ (vs. 22): (1) that one is justified as a gift, (2) BY His grace, (3) THROUGH the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (vs. 24), (4) that He (God) might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus (vs. 26).
Justification to all men (those who believe) is the *“result” *of Christ’s ONE ACT of righteousness. It is through His work and His alone. You cannot subtract from it (sin) nor add to it (works). God requires only that you put your faith in what He sent His Son into this world to do (Jn. 3:17-18). TWF, will you forsake you own righteousness (works) and trust in the “ONE ACT of righteousness” by God the Son for your justification?

 

[ncgolf]

I just do not get the resistance to work or references to work. God gave us hands and feet; muscles and a mind, He expects us to work. The participation in the worklife is part of human nature; it is not tied to whether we are paid or not. Christ did nothing but work while he was on earth. We work on being Christlike … hopefully in everything we do. That is what Catholics mean by work. Christian living is no vacation … it comes with a cross. Carrying that cross through life is work. With graces from above that cross can be bearable, but it is the cross that marks us differently.

Jesus paid the ultimate price to free us from the ravages of sin. We, Catholics know and believe it with all our hearts. But we also participate in working on improving ourselves and helping others in this world.

The ending of the Hail Holy Queen is “Pray for us O Holy Mother of God, that we be made worthy of the promises of Christ”.

I pray she does.

I know there will be mulitple verses quoted contradicting my post but still I see no contradiction in scripture with work or working.

 

[Pax]

Ozzie:

This is another distortion. The message of the gospel is not to *“depend at all times on His grace,” *but to personally trust “at all times” in His Son and what God accomplished, for all time, through Him, for you. If you would do this, Pax, you would not become so confused by the doctrinal teachings of the legalists.
…

Ozzie,

Please chill out and be more thoughtful. You say I have made a distortion, but this is not true. In fact if you would have only included another sentence or two following what you did quote from my post you would see that I also believe in trusting in God.

Let me demonstrate.

My last sentence of the paragraph you quoted says, "Our faith, hope, and love are from God and we depend at all times on His grace. Now, as you can see, I emphasized the word “hope” because this word frequently means “trust” when used in the New Testament. Your KJV of the bible uses the word trust where many other translations use the word hope. They are interchangeable as you will see from the following verses:

KJV
Eph 1:12
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

American Standard
Ephesians 1:12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ:

Revised Standard
Ephesians 1:12 we who first** hoped ** in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory.

Young’s Bible
Ephesians 1:12 for our being to the praise of His glory, [even] those who did first hope in the Christ,

This same interchangeability exists in many verses so don’t get the idea that we don’t place our trust or hope in Jesus. This is also accomplished by God’s grace and is not of ourselves. Your take on trust without grace as the under lying principal smacks of works righteousness which you, yourself, oppose.

 

[Pax]

Ozzie:

And this is why no RC believes he is absolutely saved today, or can know in this life time if he has eternal life. How tragic, evern heart-wrenching, since God’s Word emphatically states otherwise!!!

It is possible for one to “say” he has faith in Jesus, but his doctrines reveal differently.

Ozzie,

If you believe in “once saved always saved” just say so. Moreover, I will send you over sixty five NT verses which refute this doctrine. I have personally researched all of these verses after having several people tried to preach this erroneous doctrine. If you are willing to read them, I will send you a file by email that contains all of the verses that refute OSAS.

 

[kellyb32]

nucatholic:

Well this seems like a trap to me. But no I don’t “know” you are going to hell or heaven or maybe spend some time in purgatory. Only God knows. However you don’t “know” without a doubt that you are going to heaven because you are not God I am assuming. I was a Protestant at one time also and I thought I “knew” I was going to heaven but inside I had a deep emptiness. That emptiness is now complete with the Holy Spirit leading me to the fullness of the Catholic Church.

I am a revert who grew up Catholic who left the faith to enter the protestant fundamentalist sola scriptura/sola fide camp. I was trying to get closer to Christ in my walk, and I was taught that all I needed to do was say the sinners prayer and I would be saved.

But like you I had a nagging emptiness that something was missing. My husband who grew up in a fundamentalist anti-catholic home was the first one to suggest to me 2 years ago that we visit the RC church down the street from our house. We’ve never left. After much prayer and study, we both entered the Church with our 3 children this past Holy Saturday.

We now feel complete as well thanks to the Holy Spirit bringing us into the fullness of the Catholic Faith.

One thing I don’t miss from attending the protestant services faithfully is judging those who don’t worship the way we did and being judged by fellow church goers who felt that if you didn’t eat, sleep, talk, think or live the bible, you were backslidden and in need of repentance for your laziness in those things that were required of a Christian.

God bless you.

 

[MariaG]

Welcome home Kelly,

As the same kind of revert, I know exactly what you mean. Not that you don’t live your faith, but that you don’t have to carry your Bible around in order to show you are not backslidden.

I have read parts of St. Fransis de Sales “Introduction to a Devout Life”. Basically it says that we pray without ceasing not by getting on our knees and pray all day but by turning whatever your vocation is into an offering to God. As a mother I am not showing my faith in God by ignoring my children. I am truly worshipping God and showing Him my faith by being an attentive mother and a good wife. By cleaning house with a good heart and not a grumbling one. These are ways that I as a homemaker “pray without ceasing”.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[kellyb32]

MariaG:

Welcome home Kelly,

As the same kind of revert, I know exactly what you mean. Not that you don’t live your faith, but that you don’t have to carry your Bible around in order to show you are not backslidden.

I have read parts of St. Fransis de Sales “Introduction to a Devout Life”. Basically it says that we pray without ceasing not by getting on our knees and pray all day but by turning whatever your vocation is into an offering to God. As a mother I am not showing my faith in God by ignoring my children. I am truly worshipping God and showing Him my faith by being an attentive mother and a good wife. By cleaning house with a good heart and not a grumbling one. These are ways that I as a homemaker “pray without ceasing”.

God Bless,
Maria

Thank you Maria, it’s great to be back!

I am a homemaker too. I know what you mean.

While in the fundamentalist churches, I was not able to be a mother to my oldest daughter who is now 10. I was accused of loving her (my husband, parents, siblings etc.) more than God and my ministry was first to Him by being an example to my family by going to church all the time, not allowing any secular music, television, books and the like in my home. I was under such bondage that my oldest daughter suffered the most because of it. I put her through a lot and for that I will be eternally sorry. I almost lost my marriage because of trying to “live up to the standard of Christ”. I’m glad God didn’t bless me and my husband with more children during that period of our life even though we tried for more and underwent infertility treatments. Eventually we stopped trying. I think it was because of stress that I couldn’t conceive. I’m happy to say that we now have 2 more children in our family. Our second daughter will be 3 this month and our son is 8 months old.

Over 5 years ago now, I began questioning my childhood faith and asked my husband what he thought of certain topics. When we got online I began researching key issues in my walk, salvation, end times, the charismatic gifts, etc. and I began to compare what I learned to what the Catholic church taught. Over 2 years ago, I stumbled upon a now closed Christian Unity forum where I met some wonderful people of various faiths (GKC here is one of them) and they helped answer a lot of my questions by pointing me in the direction I needed to go to further my studies.

There was no denying the Truth that was before us. My husband said that he converted despite what his family said (they were not happy to say the least) because the Catholic Church makes sense.

God bless!

 

[Pax]

kellyb32,

Such testimonies always touch the heart. God’s grace is a wondrous and powerful gift.

 

[Ozzie]

ncgolf:

I just do not get the resistance to work or references to work.

For salvation? It’s the same as Paul’s: *“A little leaven leavens the whole lump” *(Gal. 5:9).

Jesus paid the ultimate price to free us from the ravages of sin.

What do you mean by this?

that we be made worthy of the promises of Christ".

What do you mean by this? Paul talks about walking in a manner worthy of our calling (Eph. 4:1), but being made or becoming “worthy of the promises of Christ” is foreign to Scripture. Paul also says that the Father, through Christ, has already “qualified us to share in the inheritance” and has already *“delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins” (*Col. 1:12-14), but nowhere does he talk about being “made worthy of promises.” That’s actually an oxymoron. But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and let you show me from where you get this concept.

 

[Ozzie]

Pax:

My last sentence of the paragraph you quoted says, "Our faith, hope, and love are from God and we depend at all times on His grace.

You depend on his “grace” for what? That one day you might have a enough merit to your credit to be worthy of salvation? This has been the expressed “hope” of every RC on this thread so far.

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

This is said in context to our complete salvation through Christ: *“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory” *(Eph. 1:13-14).

I mainly use the NASB, not the KJV, where it is translated “hope.” As I pointed out in a previous post, “hope” here is not based on some future uncertainty, i.e., “hoping” for the best outcome, but the certainty of that which is already the believer’s through Christ who procured and secured our salvation through His finished work on the cross.

When Paul says in Eph. 1:12, "we who were the first to hope in Christ (i.e., the Messiah), he is referring to believing Jews. The “living hope” of the Gospel message went out to the Jew first (Rom. 1:16). The first years of the Church’s life were wholly Jewish (Acts 1-9). When Paul says “In Him you also…” (Eph. 1:13), he is referring to Gentiles. The Gentiles were “also” granted to believe in Christ unto eternal life (Acts 11:18; Phil. 1:29).

Paul’s letter to the Ephesians is about believing Gentiles now being “fellow-heirs” and *“fellow-members” *of the body (the Church), and “fellow-partakers” of the PROMISE (eternal life) of Christ through the preaching of the gospel (Eph. 3:6). Paul says this was in accordance with the eternal purpose which God carried out in Christ Jesus, in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him (Eph. 3:11-12).

Pax, to “hope,” even “trust,” or “depend” on the “grace” of God to give you the power to perform works worthy enough to, ultimately, merit salvation, and so as not to sin (mortally) and, as a consequence, lose whatever “justification” you might have had, sounds nice, but it’s not the gospel of Christ that Paul preached to the Ephesian Gentiles. Such a “gospel” is another gospel altogether. Paul warned that those who preach “another gospel” are to be accursed (Gal. 1:8; cf. 1 Cor. 11:3-4, 20). Like all things counterfeit, they look genuine at a glance, but when discovered their worthlessness is revealed and the one possessing the counterfeit can only end up being disappointed - no matter how passionately he might have believed it was authentic.

 

[Sea_Knight]

GrzeszDeL:

Definitely not; there are no Protestants in Heaven. Everyone who beholds the beatific vision is a member of the Catholic Church triumphant. There may be former Protestants in Heaven, but if they are in Heaven, they are Catholic by now.

Very interesting, Grzesz. While you and I would agree that there are no Protestants in heaven, strictly speaking, do you think that there are Protestants in purgatory? In other words, can those Protestants who through no fault of their own have not entered into the full communion of the Catholic Church while on earth, be admitted into the Catholic Church Triumphant after the cleansing fires of purgatory? (That would be some RCIA program!)

 

[Pax]

Ozzie:

Pax, to “hope,” even “trust,” or “depend” on the “grace” of God to give you the power to perform works worthy enough to, ultimately, merit salvation, and so as not to sin (mortally) and, as a consequence, lose whatever “justification” you might have had, sounds nice, but it’s not the gospel of Christ that Paul preached to the Ephesian Gentiles. Such a “gospel” is another gospel altogether. Paul warned that those who preach “another gospel” are to be accursed (Gal. 1:8; cf. 1 Cor. 11:3-4, 20). Like all things counterfeit, they look genuine at a glance, but when discovered their worthlessness is revealed and the one possessing the counterfeit can only end up being disappointed - no matter how passionately he might have believed it was authentic.

Ozzie,

You are distorting all that I have said, and in so doing you persist in misrepresenting Catholic teaching.

Let me explain this to you.

If you read my posts and those of the other Catholics that have been responding to you, you will “never” be able to find a statement that supports your claims against us. We do not believe, as you put it, that "the “grace” of God gives you the power to perfom works worthy enough to, ultimately, merit salvation.

Our salvation is not won by us. Our salvation is won by Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection. To state our position in the terms you did denies this truth which we whole heartedly affirm. This is a gross mis-characterization of all that has been said to you.

Please understand that salvation needs to be understood in terms of divine sonship and the spirit of adoption that is described in scripture. You cannot be in Christ and the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in you, if you are not Christ like. It is as Paul says, “we put on Christ and we are a new creation.” Catholic teaching sees the whole package of truth in the divine plan. God’s grace goes out in power and does not return to him empty. God’s grace accomplishes in us more than we can even desire or imagine.

Your view does not correspond to this. Your view separates and divorces the good things of God from the power of His grace. Your view separates faith and works and makes a counterfeit view of salvation by this unnatural separation.

We in no way claim that our works merit salvation. We merely say what scripture says. We say that faith and works cannot be separated without faith being dead, and that a dead faith cannot save you. This is Paul, James, Peter, John, and all of the disciples and it is what Jesus taught in the good news of the Gospel. If what we have been telling you is untrue or inaccurate then all of the scriptures we have quoted are meaningless tidbits, that are not God breathed, and they should be ignored. But we know this is not true. We know that Jesus says in Matthew 4:4 that, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”

This is why we profess the faith handed down from the day of Pentecost. We will not truncate the truth and we will not defy the clear words of scripture that “a man is saved by works and not by faith alone.”

 

[Pax]

Ozzie,

You insist that justification/salvation is a one time only event. This is contrary to scripture. Scripture speaks of salvation for believers in the past tense, the present tense, and as a future event. You can see this in the following verses of scripture:

Past Event: Rom. 8:24,
Eph. 2:5-8

Present Event: 1 Cor. 1-18,
2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12, 1Peter 1:8-9

FUTURE EVENT
Rom 13:11
Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15
Matt 24: 12-14
1 Peter 2:2-3

Justification is an on going work of God’s grace and this can be clearly seen in Abraham’s faith in Genesis 12:1-4, again in Genesis 15:6, and then again in Genesis 22:1-18. For an excellent explanation of this go to:

cin.org/users/james/files/pastpres.htm

 

[WBB]

Ozzie:

I didn’t say I haven’t read any of those writings, but the the authority for faith and doctrine derives from the Scriptures.

I am surprised that no one has picked up on this. Where, oh where is*** that*** taught in the scriptures (that the authority for faith and doctrine derives from the Scriptures)?

 

[Ozzie]

Pax:

You insist that justification/salvation is a one time only event. This is contrary to scripture. Scripture speaks of salvation for believers in the past tense, the present tense, and as a future event. You can see this in the following verses of scripture:

Salvation: A Present Event:

1 Cor. 1:18 does confirm the idea of one constantly becoming presently saved. In fact, Paul addresses the believers in Corinth as those who HAVE BEEN sanctified in Christ Jesus. That is, set apart in Him. He calls them “saints by calling” i.e., “holy ones.” They were sanctified in Christ, made holy. Then in verse eight he says that Christ Himself (our High Priest reigning in Heaven now for us) *“shall also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” *This is all in accordance with His cross. To those who are perishing he says the word of the cross is foolishness, but to us who are “being saved,” it is the power of God. The present tense here for “saved,” i.e., “being saved,” is frequentative, not durative. It portrays the idea of the constant stream of the lost toppling into eternity without Christ, and the still constant stream of the saved (through faith in the word of the cross) entering the door of eternal fellowship with Christ. It has nothing to do with the idea of a believer presently becoming saved. This is typical of how the legalist interprets a verse out of context, ignoring all the text around it. In fact, to him (the legalist) the word of the cross is foolishness.

Phil. 2:12: This is work “outward” your salvation. Work “outward” that which has already taken place inwardly. We already discussed this verse in previous posts.

1 Pet. 1:8-9: *“Obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.” *This is not to be interpreted as future. They’d actually obtained as the outcome of their faith the salvation of their souls. Peter is not indicating some future prospect. Previously he says they were “born again” to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead (not baptism, mind you) to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and WILL NOT fade away, reserved in heaven for them. And that they are PROTECTED by the power of God for a salvation ready to BE REVEALED in the last time. What they have will be fully revealed at Christ’s 2nd advent. It’s your legalist mentality that prevents you from understanding these Scriptures.
Continued…

 

[Ozzie]

A Future Event:

Rom. 5:9-10: Paul explicitly says in verse nine, "much more then, having now been justified by His blood (note that the ground for justification is Christ’s blood, not self-works!) *we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him" *(i.e., Christ). What the believer is saved from in this context is the future wrathful punishment of God spoken of in 2 Thess. 1:9, when at that time He will deal out retribution to those who do not know Him and did not obey the gospel of Jesus Christ (vs. 8): "These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, WHEN HE COMES (future) to be glorified in his saints (remember? the Corinthian believers were called “saints”) on THAT DAY, and to be marveled at among all who have BELIEVED - for our testimony to you was BELIEVED" (vs. 9). It is those who have been “saved” by Christ’s cross (through faith) that are “saved” from this future, eternal “destruction.”

Rom. 13:11: “…for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed” is referring to the REVEALING of this (our) salvation at the coming of Christ.

1 Cor. 3:12-15: This is a judgment in respect to *“rewards” *according to one’s labor (see 3:8). It has nothing to do with a future judgment FOR salvation. It has nothing to getting saved at all. RC’ism has totally perverted this passage, even using it as a pet-text for Purgatory. “If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss” (vs. 15) is not about suffering loss of salvation, but loss of “reward.” The “fire” in this text is REVEALING the quality of a Christian worker’s labor in Christ. Contrary to RC’ism this fire is not for the purpose of cleansing, as in "purgatory, but “revealing.” The true believer has already been cleansed by the blood of Christ. This passage has nothing do with future salvation or even the false doctrine of Purgatory.

Matt. 24:12-14: *“But the one who endures to the end, it is he who shall be saved.” *Words are defined by their context. The whole chapter of Matt. 24 has to do with future events that take place “at the end of the age” (vs. 3). It is the time of the great Tribulation that will come upon the earth (vs. 21). Those believers (and this is in a Jewish context) who “endure to the end,” of this time of Tribulation i.e., do not experience death, “shall be saved” means they will enter the Millennial Kingdom that Christ will set up at His 2nd Advent. RC’ism and the legalists take this verse completely out of context…so what’s new? As I said before Pax, all Scripture is written for you, but not all Scripture is written about you.
Continued…

 

[Ozzie]

Future Event:

1 Pet. 2:2-3: *"Long for the pure milk of the word, that by it you may grow (be nurtured) “in respect,” or “unto salvation” *(there are various translations), means the setting aside of the aforementioned behaviors and partaking of the “pure milk of the word” which causes one to grow to maturity and so “experience” his “full salvation.” Like the child who cannot experience his “full life” except that he mature unto adulthood. In respect to the salvation of those he was writing, Peter had established the FACT that they were already REDEEMED (past tense), purchased, by the precious blood of Christ (1:18-19). They were His by purchase. That’s what redeemed means. He doesn’t redeem them at some future time.

Well, here you have it, Pax. I am well aware that these truths will not penetrate the mind of the legalist which is always bent on robbing Christ of the glory of His cross (which is foolishness to him), and all that He accomplished there, eternally, for the true believer. Such a pity! But so goes the way of religion and the religious.