I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[Ozzie]

Pax:

The reference made it clear that the Church believed that the Eucharist was truly the body and blood of the Lord.

I’ve done a study on this searching out early writers, and the big problem is that you can’t always know where they’re coming from, often they’re ambiguous. In one part of their writing they seem to be clear, and then in another they seem to contradict themselves, or they muddy the waters. It’s quite frustrating! When it comes to this controversial issue, and many others, I find the Word of God quite adequate.

 

[Ozzie]

twf:

If you look at all of the Scriptures, not just a few passages here and there, within the context of what the Apostolic Church believed and taught, it becomes clear that justification is by grace alone, but that this grace leads to faith, which in turn leads to works, which play an important role in our justification.

The Scriptures completely contradict your “progressive” theory of justification. In fact, this one clear passage will suffice to debunk this non-Biblical doctrine:

“So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men” [Rom. 5:18).

Justification is the result of only ONE man’s ONE act of righteousness, and that of the Lord Jesus Christ - His sacrificial death on the cross.

Protestants start with the Pauline letters for their understanding of justification. Is this fair? Jesus is the founder of our religion, not to mention our God, so should we not start with His teachings? Paul’s writings are an extension of His teachings, written to particular churches for varying reasons. Jesus’ parables again and again make it clear that justification is by the grace of God, but that works are an integral component of this justification.

Those who study the Scriptures for an understanding of justification quote the Apostle Paul because only Paul developes this doctrine. Jesus spoke nothing pertaining to justification. He often used the words “eternal life,” but never used the word “justification.” This is strictly a Pauline term. And remember, Paul got his teaching directly from Christ (Gal. 1:12; 2 Cor. 12:1-10).

*“He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ…” (*Rom. 5:25-5:1).

Now, before you come back at me with James, please read my post #277.

 

[Writer]

A similar discussion concerning the assurance of salvation vs “once saved always saved” is taking place on the thread identified below.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=245502#post245502

 

[Pax]

Ozzie:

What James communicates in the second chapter of his letter does not invalidate what Paul fastidiously communicates regarding justification by faith alone in the third through fifth chapters of Romans.

…

Both Paul and James cite Abraham as an example. But Paul clearly points out that Abraham was justified, or reckoned righteous, by God through faith long before he “offered up Isaac on the altar,” the event James illustrates in his argument (see Ja. 2:21). In fact, Paul points out that Abraham was “reckoned righteous” even before he was circumcised, some 20 years before the actual event with Isaac (Rom. 4:10-11).

James does not deviate from faith to works as the justifying agent when he illustrates Abraham and Isaac as an example, as Beck clearly translates verse 24: “You see his faith was active with works and by works reached its goal.” In other words, Abraham did not simply have a “said” faith, but a true faith which was demonstrated in his life by works. Yet, it was not the works that justified him, but his faith which motivated and produced works, even twenty some years after he believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (Rom. 4:5).

A man of true faith, opposed to a “said” faith, will ALWAYS demonstrate works in his life. That’s why James concludes, “For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead” (i.e., a mere “said” faith). As the body is animated by the spirit, faith is animated by works. And this takes us right back to James’ original statement, "I will SHOW you my faith by my works.

The legalist always distorts James and tries to put him at odds with Paul. But the astute believer sees that it’s actually the legalist who has the mere “said” faith, because, ultimately, he trusts in his own works to save and justify him before God – not the Person and work of Christ alone. Consequently, and quite contrary to Scripture, he believes (and teaches others, as well) that no one can actually know in this life time if they have eternal life. You see, a “said” is no faith at all.

Ozzie,

In my opinion, this is perhaps your best post on this thread.

That having been said, let me assure you that Catholics, if you are referring to us as “legalists”, do not distort James nor do we attempt to pit him against Paul. It is our contention that Paul’s teaching is distorted by the term “faith alone” and that this phrase automatically pits Paul against James. James, when talking about Abraham is, indeed, talking about Abraham’s faith in the same way that Paul speaks of Abraham’s faith. The difference is that James is making it clear that you cannot separate faith from the actions that it “must” produce to be a living faith. Faith and works are so **inextricably intertwined that they cannot be separated. ** If they are separated then you are left with a dead faith that is not a saving faith.

Paul’s writings are to be understood in the entire context of the NT including James, and James writings are to be understood in the same NT context which also includes Paul. Because James clearly states “that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”, a Catholic and anyone else that believes scripture can **never ** say, “we are saved by faith alone.” This does not pit James against Paul. This is simply reiterating what is clearly written in scripture. There is no way to parse this differently without doing violence to the inspired word of God.

 

[Pax]

Ozzie,

You somehow believe that Catholics mistakenly fall back on their works for justification. Please note: It is a serious misunderstanding to think that Catholics believe that we somehow work our way into heaven or that we take credit away from Christ.

We do not look at our works and salvation as any kind of wage and payment scenario.

We do not believe that there is anything that we do of “oursleves” that merits salvation.

We do not believe that we can work our way into heaven.

On the other hand, we do believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins and that he alone, as the son of God, can provide atonement, redemption, and salvation.

We believe that we are justified by the application of the merits of Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection.

We believe that Jesus is the one mediator that restores our relationship with the Father. Adam broke the relationship of man to God and Jesus, the new Adam, restores it. Nothing we do accomplishes this in anyway.

What you need to understand about “faith and works” and why we are not saved by faith alone is that God’s grace goes out in power and it does not return to Him empty. The following verses show what God’s grace is about. Read them carefully and prayerfully. They express why faith and works cannot be separated.

2 Cor 3:5-6
Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, who has made us competent…

1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the work of the Lord, because you know that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

1 Cor 10:13
God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it.

Eph 3:16
I pray that, according to the riches of his glory, he may grant that you may be strengthened in your inner being with power through his Spirit,

Eph 3:20
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine,

Eph 6:10-11
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his power. Put on the whole armor of God, so that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Phil 4:13
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

Col 1:11
May you be made strong with all the strength that comes from his glorious power, and may you be prepared to endure everything with joy

2 Thess 1:11
To this end we always pray for you, asking that our God will make you worthy of his call and will fulfill by his power every good resolve and work of faith, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thess 3:3
But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one.

2 Tim 1:7
for God did not give us a spirit of cowardice, but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline.

2 Tim 3:2- 5
For people will be lovers of themselves, … lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to the outward form of godliness but denying its power.

Heb 13:9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings; for it is well for the heart to be strengthened by grace,

John 15:5
I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing.

We earn nothing by our good works in Jesus Christ. Instead they are the crowning of the work of the Father’s hands in our hearts. But we will never see this work of the Father without love of God and a desire to do His will. We depend on God’s grace for everything including the supernatural gift of love.

 

[MariaG]

Ozzie,

Respectfully, you are using alot of twists and turns to refute simple Biblical statements. You say we are saved by faith alone. Scripture says otherwise. You say we are NOT justified by works, and once again, Scripture says otherwise.

You go directly against Scripture. I honestly can not see how you can say you believe in Bible alone when clearly your beliefs directly contradict the Bible.

Justify your words all you want, but you contradict Scripture when you claim faith alone and that we are not justified by our works.

 

[Pax]

Ozzie:

I’ve done a study on this searching out early writers, and the big problem is that you can’t always know where they’re coming from, often they’re ambiguous. In one part of their writing they seem to be clear, and then in another they seem to contradict themselves, or they muddy the waters. It’s quite frustrating! When it comes to this controversial issue, and many others, I find the Word of God quite adequate.

Ozzie,

If you read Ignatius of Antioch and his letter to the church at Smyrna you would not make this statement. At least not in regards to the his understanding of the Eucharist. The same can be said for all of the Church Fathers on this subject. There is no ambiguity.

 

[2heartsaz1]

Ozzie:

No we don’t. There’s no such thing as “graces” (plural) given to us by God and Christ’s sacrifice.

I suppose there’s no such thing as the Trinity also? or the “Bible” since the words aren’t in scripture?

I suppose those words were invented later on?

What about the Lord’s day? who decided that? It’s not in the bible, is it?

D in AZ

 

[Ozzie]

Pax:

The difference is that James is making it clear that you cannot separate faith from the actions that it “must” produce to be a living faith.

Not “must” produce, “does” produce. But those “works” have nothing to do with justification. Jimmy Akin’s statement below is totally erroneous:

"The three theological virtues of Catholic theology are thus summed up in the (good) Protestant’s idea of the virtue of faith. And the Protestant slogan “salvation by faith alone” becomes the Catholic slogan “salvation by faith, hope, and charity (alone).”

This is a total distortion of “faith.” True faith is a total trust only in what Christ accomplished completely and perfectly for us on the cross. Now I see why you kept pushing “love” as a requirement for salvation. The “faith” that justifies, or better, by which God justifies the sinner, trusts only in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ (the cross). Akin’s definition takes one’s eyes off Christ and on to self. A self-works gospel. A spin-gospel.

 

[Sarah_Jane]

We are justified by “faith expressing itself through love”. (Gal 5:6)

“And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.” (1 Cor 13:13)

 

[Pax]

Ozzie:

Not “must” produce, “does” produce. But those “works” have nothing to do with justification. Jimmy Akin’s statement below is totally erroneous:

"The three theological virtues of Catholic theology are thus summed up in the (good) Protestant’s idea of the virtue of faith. And the Protestant slogan “salvation by faith alone” becomes the Catholic slogan “salvation by faith, hope, and charity (alone).”

This is a total distortion of “faith.” True faith is a total trust only in what Christ accomplished completely and perfectly for us on the cross. Now I see why you kept pushing “love” as a requirement for salvation. The “faith” that justifies, or better, by which God justifies the sinner, trusts only in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ (the cross). Akin’s definition takes one’s eyes off Christ and on to self. A self-works gospel. A spin-gospel.

Ozzie,

If you were familiar with Akin’s writings you would not have made this statement. “Everything” begins and ends with God’s grace. The difference is that your position seems to say that God’s grace begins and ends with “faith alone.” This is obviously incorrect and not consistent with scripture. James Akin and the rest of us never take our eyes off of Christ. We depend on grace through Jesus for everything. Our faith, hope, and love are from God and we depend at all times on His grace.

Your suggestion that faith “does” produce good works as opposed to “must” produce good works is based on your presupposition of “faith alone.” Since you make the point that there is a difference between the word “does” and the word “must” then I can rightly assume that this is more than a matter of mere semantics.

If faith without works is dead and won’t save you, then you “must” have works along with your faith in order to have a saving faith.

Merely accept the words of the apostle James. He is an inspired author and an apostle. If you accept what he says you won’t go wrong.

 

[MariaG]

:bible1: James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

posted by Ozzie
Not “must” produce, “does” produce. But those “works” have nothing to do with justification.

Who is trying to “spin” the gospel here?

 

[Ozzie]

Pax:

Our faith, hope, and love are from God and we depend at all times on His grace.

This is another distortion. The message of the gospel is not to *“depend at all times on His grace,” *but to personally trust “at all times” in His Son and what God accomplished, for all time, through Him, for you. If you would do this, Pax, you would not become so confused by the doctrinal teachings of the legalists.

Based on one’s personal faith in Christ alone, God forever saves the believer BY GRACE. And because of Christ’s finished work of redemption on the cross, He can justify the believer AS A GIFT, by His grace (Rom. 3:24). It is because of the cross that God can be both “just” and the “justifier” of the one has FAITH IN JESUS (Rom. 4:26).

You don’t need to “depend at all times on His grace,” but you do need to finally, and once for all time, actually believe that He saved you BY HIS GRACE. God is faithful to His Word, you can depend on His Word. This kind of faith, Pax, simply by the joy of it, actually produces good works. But, of course, it is through this kind of faith that the Holy Spirit regenerates the believer, causing him to be made spiritually alive, i.e., “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works” (Eph. 2:10).

If faith without works is dead and won’t save you, then you “must” have works along with your faith in order to have a saving faith.

Take the spin out of it and it clearly translates: If faith without works is dead then you must perform works in order to be saved. This is the basic RC doctrine of salvation. And this is why no RC believes he is absolutely saved today, or can know in this life time if he has eternal life. How tragic, evern heart-wrenching, since God’s Word emphatically states otherwise!!!

It is possible for one to “say” he has faith in Jesus, but his doctrines reveal differently.

 

[RBushlow]

MariaG:

This is another distortion. Based on one’s personal faith in Christ alone, God forever saves the believer. You do need to finally, and once for all time, actually believe that He saved you BY HIS GRACE.

MariaG and PAX, Please do not be discouraged because Ozzie is unable to see. It is not our task to bring him into the Faith, that belongs to the Holy Spirit. We merely sow the seed, it is up to the Holy Spirit to touch his heart. And even though he has hardened his heart now, it may not remain so. Only with the guidance of the Holy Spirit will he be open to hear the Truth. We pray Our Heavenly Father, God Almighty that all of our brothers and sisters in Christ may discern the Fullness of Truth and receive the Fullness of Faith throught the power of the Holy Spirit. We pray this through Jesus Christ, Our Lord. Amen.

May the peace of Christ be with you all.

 

[Sarah_Jane]

Take the spin out of it and it clearly translates: If faith without works is dead then you must perform works in order to be saved. This is the basic RC doctrine of salvation. And this is why no RC believes he is absolutely saved today, or can know in this life time if he has eternal life. How tragic, evern heart-wrenching, since God’s Word emphatically states otherwise!!!

“Our justification comes from the grace of God.” (CCC, 1996)

“The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.” (CCC, 1999)

"Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits” - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty. (CCC, 2005)

 

[twf]

*The Scriptures completely contradict your “progressive” theory of justification. In fact, this one clear passage will suffice to debunk this non-Biblical doctrine:

“So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men” [Rom. 5:18).

Justification is the result of only ONE man’s ONE act of righteousness, and that of the Lord Jesus Christ - His sacrificial death on the cross.*
These verses have nothing to do with how we are justified, they teach why we can be justified. We are justified because of Christ’s one work, but that says nothing of how justification works on the individual level. Your reasoning eliminates the need for even personal faith! If you are to say that nothing besides Christ’s one work has any role in our justification, then there is nothing we need to do (and yes, repenting/accepting Christ is something that you ‘do’) to be justified, and thus all people will be justified by default. When a person accepts Christ and repents of their sin, that is an event seperate from Christ’s work on the cross…it is the moment, at least in your view, where Christ’s work is applied to the person. I say again, these verses say nothing of how we are justified, only why we are justified.

As for Paul. You are right, he is the first person to use the technical term ‘justification’, but Jesus also taught on salvation and how salvation is to be obtained. What do you make of His parables and sermons if they do not touch on justification? Read through the passages I cited…take Matthew 25 for example…salvation and justification is clearly being spoke of in these passages. “Any tree that does not bear fruit shall be cut down and thrown into the fire.” This verse clearly shows that a lack of fruit means that the individual has reject God’s grace and thus shall not be saved. In Matthew 25, in the parable of the goats and the sheeps, as with other parables I have cited, Christ clearly gives fruit (or lack of) as the reason for why the people are saved or damned. He doesn’t say “You believed in me, so come to eternal life” nor “You did not believe in me” because true faith will always lead to works…and it is their faith and the fruit of that faith that Christ will evaluate at judgement.*

 

[marvhet]

What counts is your personal relationship with Christ as your GOD and SAVIOUR!!!** T**he GOD that I serve is a GOD of LOVE!!!..Does GOD knows you? …Do you follow Him!!! if you answer YES…then you can be sure you can go to heaven!!!

 

[Ozzie]

“Our justification comes from the grace of God.” (CCC, 1996)

“The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.” (CCC, 1999)

"Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits” - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty. (CCC, 2005)

Where in Scripture does it say "grace is infused into your soul? Or where does it say it’s a “gift.”

But you’re right, no one should ever rely on feelings or self-works, you’re to rely on the immutable truth of God’s Word. In it the infinite value of Christ’s sacrificial work on the cross, on our behalf, is revealed. Grace isn’t “infused” nor is it a “gift.” Grace is the means by which God forever saves the one who believes the message of Christ’s cross. Salvation itself is the divine gift (Eph. 2:8-9). And not only does He graciously save the one who believes the message concerning His Son, He also justifies, as a gift (Rom. 3:24), the one who has faith IN JESUS (Rom. 3:26; 5:17, 19). The work of salvation was Christ’s to accomplish, and He did (“it is finished”). What is required of you is that you believe He did what He was sent to do.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yoursleves, it is the gift of God…” Eph. 2:8

 

[MariaG]

:bible1: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yoursleves, it is the gift of God…” Eph. 2:8


But let us make sure to take the whole Bible together.

http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/objects/bible_1.gif James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

And, Pax, thank you.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

p.s.
Please note, the first one is talking about salvation. The second verse is talking about justification.

 

[RBushlow]

marvhet:

What counts is your personal relationship with Christ as your GOD and SAVIOUR!!!

What counts is what Scripture says.
James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

Your brother in Christ.