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Gottle_of_Geer
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Sorry ?
Without Grace in Person - we can do nothing. Of course grace is essential.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
[continued, ended.]
Indulgences are an application of the power of Christ Who holds the keys of death and hell. And they are Scriptural - see St. Paul’s indulgence in 2 Corinthians 2.6-10; the basics are there. We can’t know - but, we can have good hope, and should hope; indeed, we must. We have every reason to. But we cannot know with the certainty of faith that we will persevere to the end; that is the sort of faith we reserve for dogmas
Indulgences are an application of the power of Christ Who holds the keys of death and hell. And they are Scriptural - see St. Paul’s indulgence in 2 Corinthians 2.6-10; the basics are there. We can’t know - but, we can have good hope, and should hope; indeed, we must. We have every reason to. But we cannot know with the certainty of faith that we will persevere to the end; that is the sort of faith we reserve for dogmas 
; we must have no faith in our own wretchedness, but only in Him Who saves.
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mayra_hart
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Heb. 9:12 - Christ’s sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God’s doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of “once saved, always saved,” such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church. bless you all…amen
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pennyh
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You don’t have to be Catholic to go to heaven. No one on earth is supposed to judge others, of any religion. That is not our job, clean our own houses if you will… When someone asks me if I’m “saved”, I will respond by telling them I work on it every single day. I will say I won’t go to hell, I truly believe that, but will probably spend some time in purgatory before being welcomed as many of us do.
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Ozzie
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ncgolf
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I disagree some of the comments in your response. One of the most amazing things about Jesus’s parables are their complexity. Each time people do come to a different understanding of its meaning. One of the points is that it is a parable mostly about money. I believe money is used because it is such a necessity in peoples lives and most people can relate to it, but what the money represents are the treasures each of us is entrusted. My interperation opens other questions (salvation is one of the them) but is not inconsistent with the parable.
You must admit he Roman Catholic understanding of salvation makes the road to heaven much more difficult than the “once saved, always saved” belief. Catholics believe that the destiny of their immortal souls is tied to how their life on earth was lived. From this one can see why the Catholic Church is so sacramental. The graces granted in a Catholics sacramental life give the spiritual graces needed to live a life worthy of Christ’s promises. We do not go through life unaided.
Our notion of salvation is also to tied to the free will. This is why Catholics believe we can lose the gift of salvation and that each day our souls are in peril. God will never force anyone to do anything but will always supply the grace needed for us for our souls to be united with his after death.
One of the questions I have about the “once saved, always saved” is why a judgement at death is needed. It seems it would be just be a formality since in life people have professed Christ as their savior. I guess that was question in the opening thread. You say you are saved by professing Christ as your savior, and we, as Catholics say you must believe Christ is your savior and live your life as Christ lived His, any less puts a soul in peril. That is why we will not know for certainty, until death, whether we will gain Heaven.
I, in my weaker moments, wish the road was easier … that by merely professing Christ as my personal Lord and savior I will assured heaven … but alas I know that to be untrue. Christ did not say … Take up your cross and follow me… for nothing.
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GrzeszDeL
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Au contraire, ma sœur, on does have to be Catholic to go to heaven. The Popes and the Councils have taught as much several times now, to say nothing of the Scriptures and the Fathers. It is true that it is not for me to judge who is and who is not Catholic (that is God’s job), but we can know with great certainty that those who are judged not to be Catholic will not be in Heaven.
* There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved. (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
- We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
- The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull* Cantate Domino*, 1441.)
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JGC
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GrzeszDeL said:
CCC - A sure norm for teaching the faith JPII
"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
(My Bold)
To take the example of EENS, (no salvation outside the Church) the CCC is quite clear
CCC 847 - This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation
CCC 838 - The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."[322] Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”[323]
Both of these reference Lumen Gentium. Robert Burns OP pointed out that
“no responsible Catholic theologian would publicly deny them (Vat II documents) as teachings of the Church”
So really the so called EENS ‘traditionalists’ who try to damn everyone outside the visible Catholic Church (in communion with Rome) really don’t have a leg to stand on. They can try to use their own interpretations of isolated Florence and Unam Sanctam quotes until they are blue in the face. They are on there own. The Pope, Bishops, and clergy do not endorse their point of view. Which they are entitled to of course.
GrzeszDeL, if you mean you have to be Catholic in the sense you have to be in some way known to God joined to the Catholic Church then fine.
If you mean a card carrying Catholic then you are stating a personal opinion and not Catholic teaching.
I will start that thread you suggested when I get time!
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GrzeszDeL
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Right. I take no issue with either of these claims. As I said, it is not for me to judge who is in and who is out of the Catholic Church; that is God’s job. God, who knows far better the hearts of men than do I, may well find that a given individual’s imperfect communion suffices to make that individual count as “in,” in which case s/he can be saved.
Heavens forbid that I might be thought to deny the authoritative status of the holy ecumenical council summoned by Bl. John XXIII and completed by Ven. Paul VI.
Excellent, I look forward to it.
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JGC
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This was the clarification I was looking for. (**My Bold **added above) We are in agreement.
I probably find you too exclusive in terms of interpretation while you probably find me too inclusive. As you rightly say, God will be the judge.
I do from time to time get people asking me (as I’m a card carrying Catholic and don’t hide it) about the Catholic faith. These people tend to be Protestant (at least nominally). I just feel I might get a different reaction if I quoted them Unam Sanctam / Florence than gave them the Cathechism / VatII approach…
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Malachi4U
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Gods peace be with you theophilus Ozzie,
You seem to be writting opinions against the prevailing theology on this thread. I feel for you as I write on protestant threads and get the brunt of every post. I have even seen protestants contridict Scripture just to prove me wrong. It is hard to respond to all posts with great depth as time is valuable and research for proof is sometimes very time consuming. Stay here and listen with an open mind for any truth that may come your way. Likewise, I hope we read your posts with an open mind for your opinions too. After all, we are sharing our Faith.
In your post I noticed that perhaps your definition of Faith is not the same as those you’re writting to. Faith is everything we believe in as Christians and not limited to faith in Jesus or faith in salvation. Faith is the total belief in God and all of Gods word, whether written or Gospel. If we have Faith then from that Faith flow Love and Hope and deeds (works for us Catholics). We can have Love and deeds and Hope but that does not lead to Faith nor prove a living Faith. Faith is freely accepted by us and once we have Faith then it acts like a waterfall with deeds and Love and Hope pouring out of it, not around it.
Faith is NOT our greatest gift but it is a neccessary gift for us now. We don’t need Faith after we recieve salvation but we do need Love. (Thats right, I have a Hope for salvation tomorrow even though I was saved yesterday)
Perhaps if we try to use words as Catholics use them on this forum more of us will understand what you say. If you learn how Catholics use words then you will “see” what is said here.
I like your posts and hope you write more and stay with us for a long time.
No need to respond to this, it was just some friendly advice flowing in Love out of and from my Faith.
A prisoner of Christ,
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Phillip
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I am not afraid. Are you sure?
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Phillip
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I am not afraid. Are you sure?
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Phillip
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I am not afraid. Are you sure?
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2heartsaz1
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Ozzie said:
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Catholic4aReasn
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And Christ himself did say," unless you are born…of water and the holy Spirit you have no life in you" Here the action of the holy Spirit and the “water” are treated separately - how do we make sense of this?Ozzie said:
A. Jesus answers this Himself: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (Jn. 3:6). They’re two different births. In other words, Jesus defines being born of “water” not as water baptism (baptism is not even mentioned in this passage), but born physically. One must be born physically and then born again spiritually. This passage says NOTHING about water baptism. Read it again, especially vss. 5-6.
Are you certain that you’re understanding this passage correcty? If so, how? Thanks!
In Christ,
Nancy
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Ozzie
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Yes, Pax, it is true that everything pertaining to life is a “gift” from God. Life itself is a “gift,” in fact the ability to breathe is a “gift” from God. And all creation shares in this general definition of “gift.” None of us willed ourselves into existence. But Paul is talking here in the context of believers only, and faith here is not the common faith requested by all men and shared by all believers exercised at the time of salvation. In context this is a special “gift of faith” listed amongst the other special “gifts” of the Spirit He distributes amongst believers for the common good (i.e., edification) of the Body - as He wills (vss. 4, 7, 11). The “gift of faith” here manifests itself in the believer as unusual deeds of trust.
Oh my goodness, Pax, faith in God’s Word is the ultimate act of obedience. It’s what God has required of man from the beginning. It was the disobedience to God’s Word that caused Adam and Eve to plunge humanity into its fallen state of sin and judgment, terminated by death. Satan himself tempted Eve by asking her, “Indeed, has God said…?” (Gen. 3:1). The Gospel message of salvation is propositional, in that God requires the descendants of Adam to believe His Word concerning His Son (Rom. 10:8-12). Obedience is to believe God’s Word, hence, *“obedience of faith.” *
Paul says in Rom. 9:30, “That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by (or, out of) faith.” Israel had and pursued a law of righteousness, but, nationally, they did not arrive at the righteousness of that law. Why? asks Paul. Because they did not pursue it by faith, but by works. Pursuing the Law by faith would have driven them to Christ when He appeared, and they would have responded by faith to the Gospel message when preached to them (see Gal. 3:23-24).
Now similarly, RC’ism has emulated Judaism by constructing its own N.T. religious system which, as a whole, circumvents the cross. It has its own altar, its own priesthood (Pope & Prelates), its own sacrifice (eucharist-transubstantiation) and law (canon law). And like national Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness but never attained it, many RCs pursue their religious system “as though it were by works.” And utterly fail to comprehend that God requires “obedience of faith.” Not obedience to a religious system, but personal trust in what He has declared by His Word regarding His Son and salvation in/through Him. Divine righteousness being then imputed to the one who believes (2 Cor. 5:21). A “righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith” (Phil. 3:7-9).
Pax, do you realize that many call Jesus their “Savior,” or “the Savior,” but in truth, do not believe he has actually saved them? I see this demonstrated by a number of post on this thread.
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Ozzie
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Pax, they believe God is one, they don’t, nor cannot, believe that Christ saves them. Christ and His sacrificial death for our complete redemption and reconciliation to God is the content of salvation faith, this side of the cross. There is no divine plan of salvation for demons (fallen angels). Only Adam’s race. The Son became a Man, not an angel. James was writing to the Jew who took pride in being a monotheist, the unity of God being a fundamental article of their faith. It’s just one of the arguments he brings up to demonstrate that the faith that saves produces works. But James never concludes in his brief argument that faith plus works saves or justifies . But instead true faith is demonstrable by works (2:18). His argument correlates with Paul’s teaching that those saved by GRACE are “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works” (Eph. 2:8-10). No works is a good indication that there is no faith. Could be a lot of religion, but no true faith.
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Ozzie
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The Corinthian believers certainly had a lot of discipline problems. But nowhere does Paul ever refer to them as “sons of disobedience.” Only you. Paul defines what “sons of disobedience” means in Eph. 2:1-2: “And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.” It is one thing to be undisciplined in one’s spiritual walk, and at times outright disobedient. But it is something altogether different to be identified as a “son of disobedience,” being dead in trespasses and sins, in whom the spirit of Satan is continually working, and are BY NATURE a child of wrath (vs. 3). Like these, Paul says in verses 2 and 3, the Ephesian, Gentile believers, being dead in trespasses and sins, all “formally walked” and “formally lived.” But no longer, now being IN CHRIST. No “son of disobedience” is ever “made alive in Christ” (vs. 5), raised up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenlies (vs. 6), and for the ages to come will experience the riches of His GRACE in kindness toward him in Christ Jesus (vs. 7). This identity and these riches are said of, and reserved only for, the Ephesian believer, and of course all who have trusted in Christ alone for salvation.
As I said before, Pax, you need a good course in the Biblical understanding of a true believer’s, completely new identity, now being IN CHRIST. Actually, to believe how God defines a true believer in His written Word, now being IN His Son, is an act of “obedience of faith.” You cannot “walk by faith” if you refuse to accept the definition and content of Biblical faith.
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MariaG
Guest
Hi Ozzie,
While I can tell from reading your posts that you seem to be more of the scholarly bent than I am, and frankly I tend to stay away from the Justification, Sanctification, arguments I was struck by a comment, which I am sure you will clear up but you said:
This seems to directly contradict what you said. However, as I tend to stay away from these conversations since it always appears to me that people are just talking past each other, I could definitely be wrong. Scripture says we are justified by works and not faith only.
God Bless,
Maria
While I can tell from reading your posts that you seem to be more of the scholarly bent than I am, and frankly I tend to stay away from the Justification, Sanctification, arguments I was struck by a comment, which I am sure you will clear up but you said:
:bible1: James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
This seems to directly contradict what you said. However, as I tend to stay away from these conversations since it always appears to me that people are just talking past each other, I could definitely be wrong. Scripture says we are justified by works and not faith only.
God Bless,
Maria
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