I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[SherryLynn9]

martino:

St. Paul did not believe that he had already secured everlasting life in heaven. He does not talk as one that is “saved” and therefore guaranteed salvation.

1 Cor 9:24 “Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.”
What would Paul be disqualified from? What is the prize?

Phil 2:12 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”
What is there to fear if your salvation is already secure?

Rom 11:22 “Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”
What would they possibly be cut off from?

Matthew’s Gospel tell us that we must persevere to the end to be saved.
Matt 24:13 “But he who endures to the end will be saved.”

None of us, Catholic or Protestant should presume upon God’s mercy, (“Not then the kindness and severity of God”). We are all subject to sin and any one of us are capable of being disqualified, that is unless we endure to the end, working out our salvation with fear and trembling. There is no fear or trembling if we say, “I know for sure that I am going to heaven when I die!”. Many of us that falsely believe that we are secure will certainly be surprised in the end.

1 Cor 10:11 “Now these things happened to them as a warning, but they were written down for our instruction, upon whom the end of the ages has come. 12 Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.”

Brothers and sisters, TAKE HEED!

Paul states in IICor: 5:8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

I’m very new to the Catholic way. Being brought up in the Baptist church, where I met Him, was the begining of my journey. I have been in many different churches. I do know that Jesus wants me in a Catholic community for a reason. I asked Him to teach me to love as He loves. . I know Paul was speaking of himself, but wasn’t he giving hope to the people of Corinth in this letter, that they too could be confident? Judgement is Jesus’ territory not mine. We are to love each other and pray for each other.

Humbly in Jesus.

Sherry

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

JesusFreak16:

I am Protestant. How many of you already “know” that I will not be going to heaven, even though you are not omni-present and you cannot see my heart?
I hope none, but there are bound to be some… I want an honest answer, even though I know I am not going to hell. “How do I know I am not?” do you ask? Well, I do not see the need to explain to you… If you would like me to, please feel free to ask me.
I am not afraid. You are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and you do not want to hurt me, you want the best for me. I have every confidence in you.

God’s Peace~ Lisa

Why would you think that Catholics would tell a perfect stranger that they know for sure he isn’t going to heaven?? Sounds like bait to me.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Ozzie:

No, you’ve not put your faith in Jesus Christ, you’ve put your faith in the RC Episcopate. According to the Bible, baptism does not regenerate you, the Holy Spirit Himself does.

“But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done (this would include baptism and confession) in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:4-7).

The “washing” is a reference to water baptism. The holy Spirit regenerates us through the waters of baptism (Romans 6:3-4).

1. One is saved through Christ alone (through personal faith in Him).

The Church teaches that salvation is found in Christ alone, although I suspect that you’ve been told that we believe differently.

1. No works can save you.

This, also, is Catholic teaching. The Church teaches that we are saved by grace alone although, again, I suspect you’ve been told that we believe differently.

1. The Holy Spirit regenerates the believer.

Amen! He does so through the waters of baptism (Romans 6:3-4).

1. The believer is (not hopes to be) justified by grace.

The believer is saved by grace (Eph 2:6,8). The believer is justified by faith and works (James 2:24).

1. The believer is MADE an “heir” of eternal life.

Amen!

Christ, through His once for all sacrifice, made available all that was needed for man’s salvation (2 Cor. 5:21).

Isn’t our response necessary for our salvation?

The true Church is made up of all those who have recognized their need for His sacrificial death on their behalf.

Regardless of what they believe to be true?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Ozzie:

It is the RCC doctrine of salvation that is at odds with the Biblical, Pauline doctrine of salvation. I must adhere to the Word of God, not of men. You should too.

Hi Ozzie!

I admire your zeal for the Lord and his word. My question to you is this. How can we be infallibley certain that your understanding of scripture is correct? Thanks!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Ozzie:

There are great flaws in what you state above about the coming judgments, but I’m glad you pointed out that Purgatory is believed by RCs, implying that it is not a Biblical doctrine. The idea of Purgatory is outside of Biblical, divine revelation, i.e., extrabiblical.

Purgatoy isn’t extra-biblical at all, but even if it were extra-biblical doesn’t necessarily mean ANTI-biblical. ALL Christians hold to extra-biblical ideas (ie. the canon of scripture, individual interpretation of scripture, etc).

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

joehar:

1. 
   ]…the blood of Jesus Christ* his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (I John 1:7)
   
   1. 
      *]For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23) **
      
      **
      
      Romans 6:23b “but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
      
      Romans 10:13"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
      
      Ephesians 2:8-9 say, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
      
      Purgatory doesnt exist …sorry

1. 1. 
      I think you may misunderstand the Catholic teaching on purgatory.
      
      In Christ,
      Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Ozzie:

Actually, no I’m not wrong.

Hi Ozzie!

Does the possibility at least exist that you’re wrong?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[destrecht]

Ozzie:

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith in this grace in which we stand” (Rom. 5:1-2).

QUOTE]

 

[destrecht]

James 2:24
Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

 

[Terri_M]

Dear Jesus Freak,

You should always be confident of the promises of God. What does Jesus promise us in the Bible?

Since you accept that, I’ll see you in heaven, maybe on this earth, but I’m sure we’ll meet someday.

“I am the Resurrection and the life, whoever beleives in me has eternal life”

“Behold I go to prepare a place for you … if it were not true I wouldn’t have told you so.”

P.S. I am Catholic, believe faith and works go hand in hand, also that we need to forever hold to the promises of Jesus in the Sacred Scriptures. It doesn’t specify Catholic religion, but that Jesus is the Way, Truth and the Life. Our Catechism also supports it is through the grace of Jesus that we have life everlasting. Thanks be to God!

Terri

 

[dominosNbiscuts]

JesusFreak16:

So no one can “know without a doubt” that he/she is going to heaven? I hope you don’t believe that. I hope you know you are going to heaven.

God’s Peace~ Lisa

What about:

“For I am already being poured out like a libation, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have competed well; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith. From now on the crown of righteousness awaits me, which the Lord, the just judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but to all who have longed for his appearance.” (NAB 2 Tim 4:6-8)

As I recall, it was Paul who also gave us the admonition to “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling”. Is it possible that these two ideas can be reconciled?

As the years go by, I’m beginning to understand that they indeed can.

St Augustine wrote:

“If you hadn’t been called by God, what could you have done to turn back? Didn’t the very One who called you when you were opposed to Him make it possible for you to turn back?”

The Gospel echoes this sentiment several places: we don’t find God, He finds us! And when He finds us and calls us to Himself, and we in turn respond in faith, because of what Jesus has done for us at Calvary, He assures us of eternal life - not because of what we did, but rather because of who He is.

But ‘faith’ isn’t a noun, it’s a verb: it’s not something we have, it’s something we do. It’s not a state of mind, it’s a way of life.

And as long as we are baptized, have Faith in Jesus, and continue to live in His Word in fear (respect) and trembling (humility), we can be certain about our salvation.

As I recall this is the very point at which Luther and the pope parted company. But this is how I understand salvation. If anyone here sees some bells or smells missing, they’ll have to add it cause I can’t!

God bless you lots!

DB

 

[scrappinchristi]

On what source do you base your statement that “Only the Catholic Church has the full deposit of faith”?

MrS:

Simply put, Catholics put the hope of their salvation in Jesus Christ, Our separated brethren have a new belief that often puts their hope of salvation in their belief. Luther needed to adapt this thinking due to his obsession with sin - hence he was a dung heap only covered with snow. Catholic thought (which most Catholics have not been taught) teaches the true regeneration of baptism, and the true reconciliation of confession.

We both desire the same thing…eternity in heaven. But The Church makes available all that Christ has given it. Only the Catholic Church has the full deposit of Faith. We believe we are saved only by Grace, through Faith, working in Love.

MrS

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

scrappinchristi:

On what source do you base your statement that “Only the Catholic Church has the full deposit of faith”?

Eph 1:22-23- And He put all things beneath His feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way.

 

[mrS4ntA]

scrappinchristi:

On what source do you base your statement that “Only the Catholic Church has the full deposit of faith”?

“And on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.”

“I will send you the Paraclete, the Spirit of Truth … who will lead you into all Truth.”

 

[Ozzie]

Shelby Grace:

When I read your replies I get this: Those that are among the “saved” are given the #1 free gift of Grace, they are #2 transformed/washed/renewed into a true follower of Christ, who because of being “saved” #3 will do good works-knowing the ability to do good works comes from God, nothing to boast on. And that #2 & 3 happen at once, so to speak, as a matter of course when one is saved. None of the above are mutually exclusive.

I’m really sorry that that is what you “get” when you read my posts. But I can understand because my words are filtered through your mind that is greatly affected by the RC definition of “grace.” In “#1” you say, “the saved are given the free gift of grace.” However, I have never said such a thing in all of my posts, nor would I ever, so you did not “get” that from me. There is no such thing as the “free gift of grace.” Grace is the MEANS by which God saves the believing sinner because of Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross.

The Greek scholar, Dr. Charles Williams, remaining true to Greek definitions and tenses translates Eph. 2:8-9 like this:

“For it is BY His unmerited favor through faith that you have been saved; it is not by anything that you have done, it is the gift of God. It is not the result of what anyone can do, so that no one can boast of it.”

“It” in the above verse always refers to salvation:

1. Salvation is BY His unmerited favor, i.e., grace…
2. Salvation is NOT BY anything you have done (not even believing).
3. Salvation (not “grace”) is the GIFT of God.
4. Salvation is not anything one can take credit for, i.e, boast in.

Why? Because none of it (eternal salvation) was accomplished by us. ALL that was required for one to be saved from divine judgment and eternal damnation was accomplished, once for all time, through God the Son on the cross. For this reason salvation is through FAITH alone, because it is by GRACE alone.

A believer is not “transformed/washed/renewed into a true follower of Christ.” He is actually “a new creature in Christ,” forever reconciled to God, made righteous in Him (2 Cor. 5:17-21; Rom. 5:17, 19). Born again by the Holy Spirit (1 Pet. 3-4), and no longer identified in Adam, but now fully identified in the resurrected Christ (Eph. 2:4-7). The believer is not simply a “follower of Christ,” he is IN Christ, his new identity. This is what it means to be saved, Selby. This why it is all of God, and none of us. Hence, no one could ever boast. Good works are a natural product of the believer being a new creature in Christ (Eph. 2:10). Just as good fruit is produced by good trees.

The logic you presented in your post was based on the erroneous, RC idea that grace is a “gift” that one receives and “faith” is a “good work” that one does. Neither is true Biblically. GRACE is the means BY which God saves the sinner who trusts (believes) in Christ alone (see Jn. 3:14-18). FAITH is the personal response by the sinner to the gospel message, causing God to save Him forever by His limitless grace.

The true believer knows without a doubt that he HAS eternal life because his salvation was/is procured and secured by Someone other than himself. All of GRACE that no one should boast. As I’ve said in other posts, the tomb is empty (Rom. 4:25) and the true believer is no longer in Adam but in the resurrected Christ.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

JGC:

You should be. They held the apostolic faith for hundreds of years until the canon of the Bible was fixed by the CATHOLIC church.

How did they survive without the Bible?

The canonisation at the end of the late fourth century was the result of, among other things, the use of the books that were eventually canonised.​

The Fathers of the time before the end of the fourth century had plenty of NT to quote as Scripture before then - because the recognition of the NT books was a long drawn-out process: not a single action by a single council or Pope. Conciliar and Roman action was the end opf the process - not only one act by which all 27 books of the NT were at last realised to be inspired.

Before the beginning of the canonisation of the NT, the various local churches had the OT, and they had the various traditions they had learned from their Christian predecessors. The Church never lacked Scripture. There just was not as much of it canonised at Pentecost as by 400 or so. ##

 

[mrS4ntA]

## The canonisation at the end of the late fourth century was the result of, among other things, the use of the books that were eventually canonised.

The Fathers of the time before the end of the fourth century had plenty of NT to quote as Scripture before then - because the recognition of the NT books was a long drawn-out process: not a single action by a single council or Pope. Conciliar and Roman action was the end opf the process - not only one act by which all 27 books of the NT were at last realised to be inspired.

Before the beginning of the canonisation of the NT, the various local churches had the OT, and they had the various traditions they had learned from their Christian predecessors. The Church never lacked Scripture. There just was not as much of it canonised at Pentecost as by 400 or so. ##

Indeed.

The fact remains, though, that it was the Church’s Council that defined it infallibly the canon of Scripture (i.e. which ones were God-breated and which were not). In effect, the Bible itself is part of our Tradition and it is indeed a Catholic document.

 

[twf]

Ozzie: It seems to me that you read into my post on page two what you wanted to read, not what I actually wrote. Please read it again, and this time without preconceived biases or notions of what you think Catholics believe. From your response, I see you missed the point of my post…and you also ignored the few posts of Scripture I posted. I tried to make it very clear that we are saved by grace alone…please re-read my post.

You continue to insist that we can not merit salvation and that there is nothing that we can do to earn it. You are 100% correct. Is this not exactly what I said in my post? Yet you seem to read an idea of earning salvation into my words. You say that we must have faith to be saved. Ok then, you have accepted that humans must DO something to be saved, as I tried to get across in my first post. Accepting Christ through faith and repenting of one’s sins is an EFFORT, it takes an act of the will, it is something man is DOING. Though we can both agree that man does not earn salvation by faith. It is only and completely because of the cross, yet not all humans are automatically saved, we must accept it; that is, co-operate with God’s grace. To say that one must receive God’s grace, is in essence equivalent to saying one must receive God’s free gift of salvation, so if you disagree with the phrase ‘receiving God’s grace’, then I think you misunderstood what I meant by it.
We can not be saved unless God takes the initiative. This much is clear from Scripture (see Jn 6:44). The Spirit brings about conversion, and makes it possible for us to have saving faith. It is all Christ…we could not even have saving faith without the grace of Christ. This faith, that grace produces, leads to good works. These good works become pleasing to God, as they flow from His grace, and are our way to co-operating with God in the plan of salvation. Because of Christ’s merits, which are applied to us, the fruit of Christ’s grace become pleasing to God,—it is the result of our justification, our salvation. Christ warned that “any tree that does not bear fruit shall be cut down and thrown into the fire.” and James echoes “…justification is not by faith alone.” Please re-read my original post, and the Scripture references I posted (these two were included, so I have not referenced them here). These works we speak of are not our way of earning salvation, but our way of co-operating with God’s grace…the natural fruit of our salvation. If one does not produce fruit, one is rejecting Christ and his grace, which He freely offers us. You must look at the context of all Scriptures. I posted several passages that demonstrate the utmost importance of works in the plan of salvation, as a fruit of Christ’s grace. You are taking a few verses and using them as proof-texts, not taking into account all of the teachings of Christ. Read through the Gospels, Christ often attributes salvation and loss of salvation to works…again and again and again (I cited several of those passages), which must then be taken together with the writings of Paul. One must also consider the context of Paul’s letters. He is often writing against the heresy that the works of the Old Law are necessary for salvation. As I cited in my original set of posts, he even specifies that we are not saved by ‘works of the Law’. His intent is to make it clear that works can not earn salvation, but that we are saved because of grace. The because is grace, but this does not tell us how we are to receive this grace. Unless all mankind is to be saved by default, there must be something we must do as a response to Christ’s grace. In your case, this something is to repent and to believe. In the Catholic view, this is also true, but it must lead to the fruits of salvation, acts of charity towards God and fellow man, as we believe we must actively make the decision to receive or reject Christ’s grace, freely given, throughout our lives, otherwise freewill is negated.

 

[twf]

Please please please do not assume you know what the Church teaches…there are MANY MANY misconceptions about the Church out there. I, as a former Evangelical, certainly did not understand Catholic teaching, even if I thought I did. The Church has condemned the teaching that man may save himself by his own merits…it is all Christ. I invite you to approach the Catholic faith as one who has never heard of the Catholic Church before. This may be the only way to learn what the Church actually is all about.
God bless you.

 

[JGC]

## The canonisation at the end of the late fourth century was the result of, among other things, the use of the books that were eventually canonised.

The Fathers of the time before the end of the fourth century had plenty of NT to quote as Scripture before then - because the recognition of the NT books was a long drawn-out process: not a single action by a single council or Pope. Conciliar and Roman action was the end opf the process - not only one act by which all 27 books of the NT were at last realised to be inspired.

Before the beginning of the canonisation of the NT, the various local churches had the OT, and they had the various traditions they had learned from their Christian predecessors. The Church never lacked Scripture. There just was not as much of it canonised at Pentecost as by 400 or so. ##

I’m fully aware of how the Bible is a Catholic document. That’s a nice summary, hopefully Ozzie will read it. Though until the first book of the Bible was written the early Church was operating with no N.T. scripture.

It was more of a question for Ozzie to try to make him think…