M
mkarzon
Guest
If you say you are not going to hell, then you are guilty of judging, which Jesus condemed in Matt 7:1.
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Ozzie
Guest
In Rom. 1:5 Paul is referring to he taking the Gospel of grace to all the Gentiles that they, after hearing the message, believe in the Person and work of Jesus Christ for salvation - for Christ’s sake and to His glory. This is what he means by “obedience of faith.” He was not establishing the “Christian religion.” He himself had to abandon the only religion God ever gave, that of the Jews, Judaism. Instead he was sent out with the simple message concerning Christ, to be believed by everybody, anybody, anywhere. All for Christ’s name’s sake!! That’s why it’s called the Gospel of “belief,” Pax. The Lord of Glory had done all the work required to procure and secure man’s salvation. He emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant and became obedient even to death on the cross, becoming the propitiation for the sins of the entire world, and He Himself (not any church) man’s only source of eternal salvation (see, Eph. 2:6-8; 1Jn. 2:2-3; Heb. 5:9).
Paul then goes on to say, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who BELIEVES, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from FAITH to FAITH; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by FAITH” (Rom. 1:16-17].
The *“righteous man” *is the man who believes the simple Gospel message, and at that moment of belief, imputed the righteousness of Christ (2 Cor. 5:21).
Interesting that you highlight the part that says "he who does not obey…, " but this is prefaced and put in context by “he who BELIEVES in the Son HAS eternal life…” The contrast of believe and obey in verse 36 assists in defining the former term. Belief is the obedience to the utterance of God concerning faith in His Son; disobedience is unbelief. The Apostle Paul concurs when he uses the phrase “obedience of faith” in his Epistle to the Romans.
The context of John 3:35-36 is found in John 3:17-18: “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him. He who BELIEVES in Him is not judged; he who does not BELIEVE has been judged already, because he has NOT BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
God’s written Word explicitly states that He has freely given eternal life to all who believe in His beloved Son. The legalist diligently searches the Scriptures to prove Him wrong. Such a pity!!!
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Pax
Guest
You are misreading Paul. When Paul speaks of the obedience of faith he refers to obeying that which the Lord and Savior has commanded. That is why Paul warns the churches about fornication, murder, and all of the other serious sins that are sometimes commited. If you cannot see this then there is little I can do but suggest that you read Romans over several times to see the truth. The warnings against these sins and other disobedience are also given by Paul to the other Churches.
Paul makes this quite clear in Ephesians 5:5-6 when he talks about disobedience and says, "Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. “Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.” Take notice that Paul says these things to Christians. These are people of faith.
This is the true context of what Paul is talking about.
Paul makes this quite clear in Ephesians 5:5-6 when he talks about disobedience and says, "Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. “Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.” Take notice that Paul says these things to Christians. These are people of faith.
This is the true context of what Paul is talking about.
S
StSteverino
Guest
P
Pax
Guest
Ozzie,
Faith is not simply believing that Jesus died for your sins and is your savior. Faith involves believing everything and following everything that God has revealed to us. Once regenerated we abandoned our sinful nature to live by faith. We are to be lead by the Spirit. The grace of God goes out in power and grace enables us to avoid sin. That is why Paul tells us as he does in Rom 6:16 “Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?”
Get a grip on the truth and the truth will set you free. And what is that freedom? When Jesus talks about this freedom the Jews say to him in John 8:33-36, "They answered him, “We are descendants of Abraham, and have never been in bondage to any one. How is it that you say, ‘You will be made free’?” Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who **commits sin ** is a slave to sin. The slave does not continue in the house for ever; the son continues for ever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.” The freedom Jesus is promising is the freedom from committing sin.
Now notice in the following verse how belief and obedience and disobedience are related to one another.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.
Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him."
Heb 5:9
“and having been made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,”
Ozzie, you understand scripture not by and through scripture. You understand scripture from a man made tradition that can trace its origins to John Calvin and Martin Luther. You need to take note of the verses that have been presented to you. They are the inspired word of God. Moreover, you have not been able to refute even one thing I have said or quoted. You have merely gone back to your own traditions isolated verses to support your own view. Remember, all scripture is inspired and is profitable for teaching, reproof, and training in righteousness.
Faith is not simply believing that Jesus died for your sins and is your savior. Faith involves believing everything and following everything that God has revealed to us. Once regenerated we abandoned our sinful nature to live by faith. We are to be lead by the Spirit. The grace of God goes out in power and grace enables us to avoid sin. That is why Paul tells us as he does in Rom 6:16 “Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?”
Get a grip on the truth and the truth will set you free. And what is that freedom? When Jesus talks about this freedom the Jews say to him in John 8:33-36, "They answered him, “We are descendants of Abraham, and have never been in bondage to any one. How is it that you say, ‘You will be made free’?” Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who **commits sin ** is a slave to sin. The slave does not continue in the house for ever; the son continues for ever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.” The freedom Jesus is promising is the freedom from committing sin.
Now notice in the following verse how belief and obedience and disobedience are related to one another.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.
Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him."
Heb 5:9
“and having been made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,”
Ozzie, you understand scripture not by and through scripture. You understand scripture from a man made tradition that can trace its origins to John Calvin and Martin Luther. You need to take note of the verses that have been presented to you. They are the inspired word of God. Moreover, you have not been able to refute even one thing I have said or quoted. You have merely gone back to your own traditions isolated verses to support your own view. Remember, all scripture is inspired and is profitable for teaching, reproof, and training in righteousness.
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
If what you mean is, that God always takes the first step in salvation, and that man can never do so - that is standard Catholic teaching.
It is impossible for man to take the initiative in his salvation.Of course Christ is the propitiation for our sins.
However, none of this rules out Christian discipleship. If there is a tension between the work of God’s grace, and the need for obedience through faith, of the Christian, to Christ, it is a tension which is present in the NT writings themselves. God has “prepared good works for us to walk in”; we do not belong to ourselves; we are not our own; so we cannot simply lie back and do nothing at all. That is not the example of obedience to the Will of the Father that Christ has left to us.
Good works are not optional - if we are members of Christ, we will be productive in good works. This is not mere moralism; the good works of Christians are the fruit of communion with Christ - not an extraneous addition to His work, but an organic outgrowth from & consequence of it. The good works of Christians are good, in proportion as they are primarily, and entirely, the work of Christ Himself. For withour Christ as the Source of our Life, we can do nothing whatever. Without Christ the Source of all Grace, we cannot even have faith - or even existence, if you really want to know.
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Ozzie
Guest
We are saved with an expectation for action on our part. I always go back to the Eph. 2:8-10 passage because it’s the Gospel message in a nutshell. Not until you grasp what Paul communictes there in just those few verses you will not be able to understand the theology which permeates all of his Epistles. He never deviates from the basic message that we are saved by grace through faith, and that this salvation is a GIFT of God, having nothing to do on our part. In fact, the Greek word for “gift” in this passage is “dorean.” It means, “without cause.” We are saved “dorean,” i.e., freely, gratis, gratuitously, giftwise, without a cause in us." The same is said of our justification in Christ.
But this “giftwise” salvation does serve a purpose. This Paul reveals in verse ten: “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” Now did you get that? The believer, saved by grace, is no longer in Adam but created anew in Christ Jesus “FOR” the purpose of good works. But, mind you, never BY those “good works.” Understand the chronology: (1) A person is saved freely (dorean) through faith alone, (2) created anew by God in Christ Jesus, (3) then, and only then, good works are performed by him.
If you will allow this basic salvation truth to grasp you, you will then begin to understand the cross of Christ and Pauline theology as revealed in all his Epistles.
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Ozzie
Guest
Gottle of Geer:
Tell me what you think this means.
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Ozzie
Guest
I’m not real concerned what early church writers had to say. I am very concerned, however, with what God has communicated to us in His written Word. You should be too.
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Ozzie
Guest
Of course God doesn’t take away free will. I wouldn’t call free will a “gift.” Faith is not a gift, either. Salvation is a gift. So is righteousness and justification. As for free will, the unbeliever has the free will to accept by faith or reject the message concerning salvation through Jesus Christ. That’s “obedience of faith.”
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Ozzie
Guest
Tell me then, what are these “merits” for?
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Ozzie
Guest
The simple answer is no. No one can love someone (in this case “Someone”) they don’t know. Only the saved love God. But you cannot be saved by claiming to love God. You are saved by believing Him.
Did you know Pax that no person will ever go to Hell because of sins?
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Ozzie
Guest
He is writing this TO Christians, but he is not writing this ABOUT Christians (def. “true believers”). True believers are never referred to as “sons of disobedience” in Scripture. What you lack, my friend, is a healthy, Biblical understanding of the believer’s new identity in Christ.
Paul writes something similar to the Corinthian believers, only he goes further in his explanation:
“Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you; BUT YOU were washed, BUT YOU were
sanctified, BUT YOU were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:9-11).
All Scripture is written TO you Pax, but not all Scripture is written ABOUT you.
C
Corpus_Cristi
Guest
Well, this, Ozzie, is the heart of the matter. We aren’t prefering what early Christians said to scripture when we read them. The early christians we’re talking about are from the first, second, and third centuries. These people are people who walked with the apostles, some who even walked with Jesus. These people have more insight on what scripture should mean to a Christian more than we could ever know, not to mention they’re the people that wrote the scriptures. People like Clement I, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Irenaus, etc, they were people who knew the apostles PERSONALLY. They knew exactly what the apostles meant when they wrote something, or even said something, and then expounded upon it. How do you know that the epistles of St. Paul are the only ones that he wrote? How do you know that the epistle of James is the only one he wrote? You don’t. You talk about us taking scripture out of context, when truly, you’re the one who’s taking scripture out of context. The only Bible you truly have and that you truly believe in is the preconceived interpretation that you have of scripture that you have in your head. You probably believed in sola scriptura, sola fide, once saved, always saved before you even looked at a word of scripture. You simply took these things on faith, and then someone with a truly false interpretation of scripture gave a you a list and you went from there. They however, didn’t show you the rest, which is why you contradict yourself when you read off scripture passage that you try to fit to support your views, but there’s always anothe one that comes up. When you say that you know more about scripture than the people who personally knew the people who wrote the scripture, you’re kind of making yourself sound :whacky: . I don’t think you’d actually admit that, but you kind of are. Anyway, what I’m asking is, how much more do you know, than these early fathers of the church knew?
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Shelby_Grace
Guest
Dear Ozzie,
When I read your replies I get this:
Those that are among the “saved” are given the #1 free gift of Grace, they are #2 transformed/washed/renewed into a true follower of Christ, who because of being “saved” #3 will do good works-knowing the ability to do good works comes from God, nothing to boast on.
And that #2 & 3 happen at once, so to speak, as a matter of course when one is saved. None of the above are mutually exclusive.
What you reject, is the Catholic teaching, though maybe not all of it. 1# Grace is a free gift from God, unmerited by us. #2 that we are given grace through Baptism, #3 All good works done are accomplished by God through us so that no one may boast…#4.yet, we may refuse #1, this gift and return it through unrepented sin.
So, really the only bone of contention seems to be the Catholic #2  for you and the Protestant # 3 for us.
We believe that Baptism is God’s way to send us the free gift of Grace and you believe saying, “I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior” (In a true heartfelt firm commited way, of course) “causes/invites/allows/calls on/cues” God to give Grace.
The difference I see here is that Catholics believe in the free self-action of God to work through His creation (water, as a sign & vehicle) independent from us .God is the catalyst. However, you believe God acts only on a “cue” from you/Protestants, when they invite Him to do so, through your “Accepting Jesus” actions…making you(Protestants) the catalyst of this Gift.
If you are the catalyst of the Gift being given, where the does initiation to ask, stem from? I do not see how an unsaved person(in your line of reasoning) would have any way of wanting to do the good work of Asking for the Gift of Grace, when you are not capable of doing any good works without being Saved (getting the Gift of Grace) first.
It appears your way is backwards no matter what way you look…First you get a desire to ask for the Gift of Grace, (a good work), then you Ask Jesus into your Heart, then God responds to your good work, then renews you and you are then capable of good works, that you have already previously performed without Grace. Because surely asking Jesus into your Heart counts as a good work which must happen before God responds to you with His free gift of Grace.
Our “way” makes more sense. The Giver of the Gift acts on His own accord, He is Goodness and doesn’t have to be asked by us directly per se to act on our behalf or told to do something for us. Baptism is the chosen way God gives the Gift of Grace to us. We mature in Grace, while God works His goodness through us, using us to minister to others…Grace is independent of us, the creatures…at the moment the gift is given, but we have the free will to, later, give the Gift back if we make the decision to sin. The Giftor-God is Graciousness Himself and will always offer the gift again when we are worthy to receive it/repentence using the prescribed medicine of Confession.
In your “way” we have the human being being the initiator of the Gifting process…and God as the responder…the human then gets the free gift and all it’s benefits…God is then binded (by His own promises) and must sit back and watch the human sin and pretends to notice nothing amiss because Jesus blood is covering everything up. Then the human dies and is held accountable for every idle word etc…and no fornicators, adulterers, theives, liars…etc will be found in Heaven, but because the human asked for the Gift of Grace, God was compelled to give it and now must overlook any of these incidences of sin and let the person into Heaven.
Sounds great! And Easy! And fun.
Unfortunately, the tried and true way is the only way there is-Jesus’ instructions/Divine Tradition and His teachings found only in the Holy Catholic Church in Faith and Morality.
When I read your replies I get this:
Those that are among the “saved” are given the #1 free gift of Grace, they are #2 transformed/washed/renewed into a true follower of Christ, who because of being “saved” #3 will do good works-knowing the ability to do good works comes from God, nothing to boast on.
And that #2 & 3 happen at once, so to speak, as a matter of course when one is saved. None of the above are mutually exclusive.
What you reject, is the Catholic teaching, though maybe not all of it. 1# Grace is a free gift from God, unmerited by us. #2 that we are given grace through Baptism, #3 All good works done are accomplished by God through us so that no one may boast…#4.yet, we may refuse #1, this gift and return it through unrepented sin.
So, really the only bone of contention seems to be the Catholic #2  for you and the Protestant # 3 for us.
We believe that Baptism is God’s way to send us the free gift of Grace and you believe saying, “I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior” (In a true heartfelt firm commited way, of course) “causes/invites/allows/calls on/cues” God to give Grace.
The difference I see here is that Catholics believe in the free self-action of God to work through His creation (water, as a sign & vehicle) independent from us .God is the catalyst. However, you believe God acts only on a “cue” from you/Protestants, when they invite Him to do so, through your “Accepting Jesus” actions…making you(Protestants) the catalyst of this Gift.
If you are the catalyst of the Gift being given, where the does initiation to ask, stem from? I do not see how an unsaved person(in your line of reasoning) would have any way of wanting to do the good work of Asking for the Gift of Grace, when you are not capable of doing any good works without being Saved (getting the Gift of Grace) first.
It appears your way is backwards no matter what way you look…First you get a desire to ask for the Gift of Grace, (a good work), then you Ask Jesus into your Heart, then God responds to your good work, then renews you and you are then capable of good works, that you have already previously performed without Grace. Because surely asking Jesus into your Heart counts as a good work which must happen before God responds to you with His free gift of Grace.
Our “way” makes more sense. The Giver of the Gift acts on His own accord, He is Goodness and doesn’t have to be asked by us directly per se to act on our behalf or told to do something for us. Baptism is the chosen way God gives the Gift of Grace to us. We mature in Grace, while God works His goodness through us, using us to minister to others…Grace is independent of us, the creatures…at the moment the gift is given, but we have the free will to, later, give the Gift back if we make the decision to sin. The Giftor-God is Graciousness Himself and will always offer the gift again when we are worthy to receive it/repentence using the prescribed medicine of Confession.
In your “way” we have the human being being the initiator of the Gifting process…and God as the responder…the human then gets the free gift and all it’s benefits…God is then binded (by His own promises) and must sit back and watch the human sin and pretends to notice nothing amiss because Jesus blood is covering everything up. Then the human dies and is held accountable for every idle word etc…and no fornicators, adulterers, theives, liars…etc will be found in Heaven, but because the human asked for the Gift of Grace, God was compelled to give it and now must overlook any of these incidences of sin and let the person into Heaven.
Sounds great! And Easy! And fun.
Unfortunately, the tried and true way is the only way there is-Jesus’ instructions/Divine Tradition and His teachings found only in the Holy Catholic Church in Faith and Morality.
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Point 1: Those who are in union with Christ are genuinely capable of deserving a reward from God.
- This capability is entirely upon our abiding in Christ - we cannot deserve any good thing whatever if we are separated from Christ, any more than a spring could flow if it were separated from its source
- Christian merit is, IOW, utterly meaningless if it does not flow from Christ as its Source; but it is real enough. The concept of merit does have meaning within Christianity.
- Because Christ is the Source of our merit, our meriting a reward is founded uopon grace - that is, upon the wholly unmerited and unmeritable favour of the Father toward us sinners; this is the grace which sanctfies and justifies us; this is the wholly free gift of God to us, not because of any good works, lest any many should boast.
- So that this is merit with a difference - it is possible, and real, only because the grace of Christ is its source.
- This is not Galatianism. Galatianism is the mistake of looking on human merit as being a concurrent cause of salvation alongside grace. Merit is not a concurrent cause of salvation, alongside grace as another concurrent cause - it is a subordinate cause of salvation, & only “within” grace; that is why it is possible, and truthful, and not deceptive, nor unorthodox, nor unBiblical, for us to say that we are saved by grace, and to mean it. Grace is not being emptied of meaning - on the contrary, by insisting that merit flows from grace, we establish and glorify the grace of Christ.; because merit does not precede grace, but results from it.
- As to what merit is “for” - do you want a book-length answer ? IMO, merit is in proportion to charity. And charity is of its very nature self-sacrificing, and does not think of itself. It is self-denying, and self-forgetting; it loves God & neighbour too much to be thinking of self. IOW, there are some things which it is better for us to be unaware of - and merit is one of them. Talking about merit is like trying to analyse a joke - it’s very elusive, yet real enough. Which makes it all the more of a pity that that the subject is so disputed between Christians.
So one answer might be, “Christians merit so that the glory of Christ in them may spill over to others”. Christian holiness, is the overflow of the Holiness of Christ in His members. (This, BTW, is why the holiness of the Church is boundless and unfailing - because it is nothing but the Holiness of Christ. What other holiness can His Body have ? And this holiness is Christ’s Whose merit is absolutely infinite - so even our sins cannot overcome it. So the scandal-ridden Church is genuinely holy. Even today. )
And the more perfect the union in charity between Christ and His members, the more their charity, which is His charity in them, will overflow. So merit is for others. Everything He is, and gives, is for others. And that total self-giving of Christ is an echo of the total self-giving of the Divine Persons in the mystery of their common Life we call the mystery of the Trinity. ##
P
Pax
Guest
Ozzie,
You claim that free will is not a gift from God. This is utter nonsense. Everything is a gift and “given” to us by God. You make the absurd claim that faith is not a gift when scripture clearly says that it is. In 1 Corinthians 12:8-9, Paul says, “To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit…” I could go on with more scripture but this verse should be sufficient. Faith is a gift.
You seem to think that the “obedience of faith” means that having faith is an act of obedience. This is impossible. Faith is a gift. The obedience of faith refers to what our faith requires of us. Faith is the supernatural gift by which we believe in God and believe all that God has revealed to us. Jesus tells satan that man does not live by bread alone but rather by every word that comes from the mouth of God. If we believe in God and everything He has revealed to us, then we will obey God because that is part of God’s message to us.
Your response to my question, “Do we have to love God in order to be saved?” is inadequate. You know as well as I do that no one is saved that does not love God. We can speak all we want about faith and its necessity for salvation, but without love of God there is no salvation. Remember what it says in James 2:19, “You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder.” The demons believe but they do not love God. They believe but they are at enmity with God. They believe but they are not saved. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 16:22 “If any one has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed.”
It’s real simple. If you cannot be saved without loving God, then you are not saved by “faith alone.”
You claim that free will is not a gift from God. This is utter nonsense. Everything is a gift and “given” to us by God. You make the absurd claim that faith is not a gift when scripture clearly says that it is. In 1 Corinthians 12:8-9, Paul says, “To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit…” I could go on with more scripture but this verse should be sufficient. Faith is a gift.
You seem to think that the “obedience of faith” means that having faith is an act of obedience. This is impossible. Faith is a gift. The obedience of faith refers to what our faith requires of us. Faith is the supernatural gift by which we believe in God and believe all that God has revealed to us. Jesus tells satan that man does not live by bread alone but rather by every word that comes from the mouth of God. If we believe in God and everything He has revealed to us, then we will obey God because that is part of God’s message to us.
Your response to my question, “Do we have to love God in order to be saved?” is inadequate. You know as well as I do that no one is saved that does not love God. We can speak all we want about faith and its necessity for salvation, but without love of God there is no salvation. Remember what it says in James 2:19, “You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder.” The demons believe but they do not love God. They believe but they are at enmity with God. They believe but they are not saved. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 16:22 “If any one has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed.”
It’s real simple. If you cannot be saved without loving God, then you are not saved by “faith alone.”
P
Pax
Guest
Ozzie,
You made a big deal out of using scripture in context in several of your earlier posts. Now you have ripped some verses out of context in an attempt to discredit my point about obedience and disobedience. You claim that 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 is “to” Christians but not “about” Christians. You believe it to be a reference only to the unsaved. Again, you could not be more wrong. You either did not read verse eight and the preceding verses or you are attempting some slight of hand to prove your erroneous position. Verse eight says, “But **you yourselves ** wrong and defraud, and that even your own brethren.” Paul is indeed talking “about” Christians that have been falling back into the darkness of sin. Christians that were falling into sins such as fornication were by “association” sons of disobedience. This is especially clear in Ephesians Chapter 5.
P
Pax
Guest
Again, you are utterly wrong. You can only believe that sin does not send you to hell by ignoring huge portions of scripture and misunderstanding the rest.
J
JGC
Guest
You should be. They held the apostolic faith for hundreds of years until the canon of the Bible was fixed by the CATHOLIC church.
How did they survive without the Bible?
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