I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[Ecce_Homo]

Ozzie:

A. Jesus answers this Himself: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (Jn. 3:6). They’re two different births. In other words, Jesus defines being born of “water” not as water baptism (baptism is not even mentioned in this passage), but born physically. One must be born physically and then born again spiritually. This passage says NOTHING about water baptism. Read it again, especially vss. 5-6.

Here are the verses you speak of:

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born again?

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh: and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:7 Wonder not that I said to thee: You must be born again.

I have to disagree with your assessment, though. While it is true that Christ is talking about two different births, the water does not refer to the physical birth. He is speaking of being born again at that point. “…unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost…” Had Christ intended to refer to the water of physical birth would He not have said, “…unless a man be born of water and born again of the Holy Spirit…”

Furthermore, it is odd to use water when speaking of physical birth. Usually, the phrase “born of woman” is used when speaking of physical birth. For instance, in Matthew 11:11, Christ states:

Amen I say to you, there hath not risen among them that are born of women a greater than John the Baptist: yet he that is the lesser in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
**
In fact, in all the Bible, John 3:5 is the only place where born of water is used. (I just ran the words “born” and “water” through my electronic Bible, and the only other verse in which both words were found was Ezekiel 16:4 and they were not used together as in “born of water” )

Furthermore, Nicodemus says nothing of water when he declares, “Can a man enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born again?” Thus, Christ was not using the term “water” because Nicodemus did. Rather, it was Christ who initated the phrase “born again of water”.

I can only conclude that the water is used to reference not the physical birth, but the birth by the Holy Spirit. In other words, the birth by water and the Holy Spirit refer to the same rebirth.

 

[Pax]

Ozzie,

Like everyone else, you have failed to answer my post directly by analyzing the verses in question.

How about this simple and direct question? Can a person be saved if they do not love God? A simple and direct answer would be appreciated.

I reject your notion that I or anyone else simply takes verses out of context. That is something that you have to establish each and every time it supposedly happens. I believe that the verses most of us have quoted are not taken out of context. Moreover, the verses quoted frequently define the context.

I am a great believer in context myself. In fact, unlike many other bible believing people, I believe that scripture is by its very nature a very “high context” set of documents. If you do not know, understand, and appreciate the Jewish culture of the time much of what is being said can be misunderstood.

Moreover, many will attack a position not from scripture, but will attack it based on teachings and doctrines from which they operate. I do not believe we can simply dismiss some scripture verses in favor of others when they contradict a tradition such as once saved always saved or salvation by faith alone.

My own personal belief is that Protestant tradition pulls Paul out of the context of his own writings as well as the rest of scripture and therefore misunderstands his message. Catholic tradition emphasizes the gospels first with our focus on the words of Jesus. From there we look at the rest of the New Testament including a careful reading of the apostle Paul’s writings. Nothing trumps the words of Jesus. Catholic teaching fully embraces all of scripture and makes sense out of the entire picture presented therein. I do not mean any of this in a perjorative sense. I have great respect for my protestant brothers and sisters and I have benefited greatly from my associations with them.

I would say, however, that on this thread I have yet to receive a satisfying response to what I have written. I do not deny that the faith, hope, and love are supernatural gifts. They certainly are and the scripture you provided certainly supports that as do many others. However, the scriptures I cited also indicate that these are things that “we do” and they are clearly referred to as works. Once we receive these gifts we then, by the grace of God, do what it is they are. “We believe, we trust, and we love.” We take ownership by the grace of God and by the grace of God “we do” them.

Now, I would appreciate it if you would address the things I have just said and the scriptures I qouted in my prior post head on. No one has ever provided me with a direct refutation or even a nindirect one that was ever on task. In fact, no one has even tried. I hope that you will.

Yours in Christ,

Pax

 

[StSteverino]

Ozzie:

You’ll never know because you’ve taken your eyes off Christ and what He’s done for us completely and perfectly and once for all on the cross

Oh, good, Now we are back to classic camp meeting slurs against the mackeral snappers. We do not see Christ as clearly as you do. We don’t really own the work of the Cross in our hearts the way you. God has made you so wise to be his delight, you are glad you are not like those other men, especially the Catholics.

“Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain” (1Cor. 15:1-3).

Yes, this is one of my favorite quotes too, because Paul here is saying how crucial it is to hold fast to Apostolic Tradition and Preaching. Also, how about that big word IF…IF you hold fast…hold fast…live it…and some mere BELIEF IS IN VAIN. So don’t just ‘accept Jesus’ in the back of the church with a hanky unless YOU ARE WILLING TO HANG ON TO AND LIVE IT OUT AND LEARN FROM AUTHENTIC APOSTOLIC TEACHING…

(1) It was a Gospel (good news) preached to them.

Amen. Sounds Catholic.
(2) They received (believed) that message.

Amen, again, I say Amen.
(3) They’re saved BY it.

If they hold fast…WHAT PART OF IF DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

“For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures” (vss. 3-4).

AMEN!

(4) The message most important, the message that saves is that Christ died for our sins (ALL of them), was buried and rose on the third day.

ERR…I DO NOT SEE THAT IN THERE. GO BACK TO IF. In a sense you are right, we have no claim without Christ, but you better read that IF again. I do not recommend Martin Luthers advice of ‘sinning stoutly’ if you want to see God.

Anyway, (4.) is your commentary, not Pauls teaching. I know Paul, I read Paul, I love Paul…You ain’t Paul.

This my friend is the message that is to be believed to be saved. It is simple and it predates the Roman church with its contrary message which you yourself state:

When you guys get in a huff you want to slur us by calling us the ‘Roman Church’. The Catholic Church was not called Roman until King Henry the VIII, a tyrant, murderer, glutton, whore hound and self appointed Head of the Anglican Church called it thus. We accepted the Label proudly for what is Western Rite or Latin Rite Orthodoxy.

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***In any case if you do not like Western Rite Orthodoxy, go talk to our separated Catholic brothers in Syrian, Eastern, Greek or Coptic traditions. They have bonafides going rite back to the 1st Century Church and they don’t buy the radical innovations of upstart protestantism either. ***

---

This is the formula for religion, not faith. You nullify the cross of Christ.

When in doubt slur. It sounds to me like you want the prize without the cost. Jesus invites us to share in the Journey of the Cross. Or don’t you read the Gospels, just Pauls’ commentary? Or do you think Jesus only meant to teach the people of his time? How do you justify your protestant dispensationalist brothers abolishing the moral law of Matt 5-7?

Sure. We are the enemies of Christ and you got it right. I have read the biography of John Knox and Oliver Cromwell and I have read the biography of Mother Teresa and St Francis of Assissi.

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***I want to follow Jesus and I know who the correct role models are. ***

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By the way, how many hospitals and orphanages are named after Moody or Spurgeon?

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Peace,

---

Steve

 

[Pax]

Ozzie:

One is not saved BY following Christ, one is saved by believing the gospel message concerning Him and the cross. That means that He, there on the cross, took upon Himself ALL our sins - past, present and future. Yes, once saved we are to be obedient to our Lord, but it is not that obedience, i.e., to “follow” Him, that saves. It is the “obedience of faith” (Rom. 1:5; 16:26) that saves.

I really don’t have a misconception of RC’ism.

Ozzie,

I am especially enamored with Paul’s reference to “the obedience of faith” which Paul mentions in the beginning, middle, and end of Romans. You speak of context, but you have clearly misunderstood the term “obedience of faith.” Read Romans slowly and look for what Paul is saying when he speaks of obedience and when he speaks of disobedience. Moreover, tie what he says to what Jesus and the other apostle’s say. For example the apostle John says, “The Father loves the son and has given all things into his hand. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him”(John 3:35-36). In another passage Jesus tells us that, “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, **but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”(**Matthew 7:4).

Belief in Jesus as your Lord and Savior is meaningless if you do not believe “everything” that your Lord and Savior tells you. That is not lordship. That is removing “Lord” from Lord and Savior.
I could multiply many times the verses in the NT concerning the need for obedience, and I will supply you with plenty of material if you so desire. Send me a private message and I’ll send you essential verses that you can read “in context” at your leisure.

 

[Pax]

Ozzie:

One is not saved BY following Christ, one is saved by believing the gospel message concerning Him and the cross. That means that He, there on the cross, took upon Himself ALL our sins - past, present and future. Yes, once saved we are to be obedient to our Lord, but it is not that obedience, i.e., to “follow” Him, that saves. It is the “obedience of faith” (Rom. 1:5; 16:26) that saves.

I really don’t have a misconception of RC’ism.

Ozzie,

I am especially enamored with Paul’s reference to “the obedience of faith” which Paul mentions in the beginning, middle, and end of Romans. You speak of context, but you have clearly misunderstood the term “obedience of faith.” Read Romans slowly and look for what Paul is saying when he speaks of obedience and when he speaks of disobedience. Moreover, tie what he says to what Jesus and the other apostle’s say. For example the apostle John says, “The Father loves the son and has given all things into his hand. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him”(John 3:35-36). In another passage Jesus tells us that, “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, **but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”(**Matthew 7:4).

Belief in Jesus as your Lord and Savior is meaningless if you do not believe “everything” that your Lord and Savior tells you. That is not lordship. That is removing “Lord” from Lord and Savior.
I could multiply many times the verses in the NT concerning the need for obedience, and I will supply you with plenty of material if you so desire. Send me a private message and I’ll send you essential verses that you can read “in context” at your leisure.

 

[twf]

Ozzie and others:
We are certainly saved by grace alone…but not by faith alone. I assume you agree that we must accept Christ through repentance and faith to be saved. If so, then you agree that humans must do something to be saved. Obviously we are not saved because of what we did (faith, repentance, acceptance) but because of Christ’s grace; however, we must co-operate with God and be willing to receive this grace. So far I assume you agree with me. Thus, you already believe that humans must do something to be saved, and as accepting and believing in Christ take effort (of will, mind, even if it is for a moment), it is, in a certain sense, a work. However, we can not take credit for our salvation, even though we must do something to receive it, as the Spirit gives us the grace to accept it in the first place.
Likewise, in Catholic theology, the grace given to us, which leads to true faith, inevitably, if we are co-operating with God’s plan of salvation, leads to good works, as the natural produce (fruit) of our grace-empowered faith. You see, if you are to say that human work (even works that are only made possible because of Christ’s grace) can not be part of our justification, then you must believe that all men will automatically be saved…because even in your view we must exert a certain degree of effort to be saved (accepting Christ and repenting). The works that we do have nothing to do with earning salvation, but they are part of our justification process, when they flow from grace. Because we are brought into God’s grace, the works that are produced by this grace become pleasing to God, and are our way of co-operating with God as He brings us to perfection. Dave explains this in much more detail in the book. In the next couple posts, I’ll be posting some Scriptures that support the importance of works in the salvation plan. Remember, we agree 100% that we are saved by grace alone, but rather than grace through faith, it is grace produces faith which produces works. Because of freewill, we must co-operate with God throughout the plan of salvation…in your view, freewill ceases to exist, in a sense, once you perform a single initial ‘work’ (the initial assent).

I highly recommend Dave Armstrong’s (a former Evangelical Protestant) book “A Biblical Defence of Catholicism”. His site is ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM. He also has a lot of great apologetics on his site. You might be interested in catholicoutlook.com as well.

 

[twf]

21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
(Matthew 7:21-23, NIV®)

If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.
(John 14:15, ASV).
Good works flow naturally from faith. They two are inseparable.

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
(John 15:10, ASV).

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.
19 Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren? NOTE: see belief is not enough by itself)
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect; note: works perfect our initial faith…it is all part of the salvation process, God grants us the grace, from the work of Christ, to help us co-operate with His salvation plan)
23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God.
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Note: We are saved through faith and works, not just faith alone, even though it is all because of grace alone)
25 And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.
(James 2:14-26, emphasis added).
This was is pretty clear to me. Protestants will often say that it just means that works are the natural outcome of true faith, so that if you do not have works, then you never had faith in the first place…but just read the passage, it seems pretty clear that James is saying that works are essential, yes they do flow from faith, but they are necessary as well, so that means they are part of the salvation process. Protestants also say that when James says you are not justified by faith alone, he means before men, not God (implying that faith alone justifies you before God), but why make that assumption? Paul never said we are saved only by faith, he said only by grace through faith…and true faith includes works. Is there any real reason to believe that when James says “justification“ he means something different than Paul?
Note: Works outside of grace do nothing for our salvation…these works are those that flow from the grace God has given us, they have nothing to do with earning salvation, but are steps in our road to perfection…they are the continuation of our decision to co-operate with God and receive His free gift of salvation/grace.

 

[twf]

“…for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:8-10). This famous verse, often used to refute the Catholic teaching, does not teach that we are saved by faith alone, it is only through faith that we are saved, that is the initial step, but that faith naturally leads to other works (faith without works is dead, remember). The Church teaches that sola gracia (by grace alone) is true, but not sola fide (faith alone). We can take no credit even for the works of charity we do…for they would be useless (in salvation) if not for God’s grace and if they do not flow from our grace-given faith.

Often when Paul talks about justification, he tells us that it is not by works…but we must remember that 1) We are not saved because of works, they are only the natural progression after faith and grace 2) Paul is often talking about the works of the Law that we no longer must complete…they can do nothing for our salvation. This is often the context, as a number of early Christians subscribed (or were influenced) to a heresy that taught that we should still abide by the Law of Moses. For instance, in Romans 3:20 Paul clearly says “works of the law”, not works of charity which flow from grace: …because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.
3 Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; and so shall ye be my disciples.
(John 15:1-8).
Keep in mind that fruit=good works that flow from grace-empowered faith

 

[twf]

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, who would make a reckoning with his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, that owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not wherewith to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 And the lord of that servant, being moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But that servant went out, and found one of his fellow-servants, who owed him a hundred shillings: and he laid hold on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay what thou owest.
29 So his fellow-servant fell down and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay that which was due.
31 So when his fellow-servants saw what was done, they were exceeding sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord called him unto him, and saith to him, Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou besoughtest me:
33 shouldest not thou also have had mercy on thy fellow-servant, even as I had mercy on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due.
35 So shall also my heavenly Father do unto you, if ye forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.
(Matthew 18:23-35). This man was clearly ‘saved’ or justified initially (a Christian) but he didn’t forgive his brother…which is another work in a sense (though again, made possible by God’s grace). This is necessary, not just recommend.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
(Matthew 6:14-15). Our Lord affirms here as well that it is necessary to forgive your brother.

 

[twf]

14 For it is as when a man, going into another country, called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one; to each according to his several ability; and he went on his journey.
16 Straightway he that received the five talents went and traded with them, and made other five talents.
17 In like manner he also that received the two gained other two.
18 But he that received the one went away and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.
19 Now after a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and maketh a reckoning with them.
20 And he that received the five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: lo, I have gained other five talents.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will set thee over many things; enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 And he also that received the two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: lo, I have gained other two talents.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will set thee over many things; enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 And he also that had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art a hard man, reaping where thou didst not sow, and gathering where thou didst not scatter;
25 and I was afraid, and went away and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, thou hast thine own.
26 But his lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I did not scatter;
27 thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received back mine own with interest.
28 Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him that hath the ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away.
30 And cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats;
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink?
38 And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.

 

[twf]

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.
46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
(Matthew 25:14-46)
This clearly emphasizes the importance of works. The servant who received one talent was a Christian because he received the talent and is called a servant…yet it is unfruitful and he is damned at judgement. (Faith without works is dead). Then Jesus goes on, and see how those so-called Christians that had barren faith (led to no works…so dead faith) were damned.
6 And he spake this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came seeking fruit thereon, and found none.
7 And he said unto the vinedresser, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why doth it also cumber the ground?
8 And he answering saith unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 and if it bear fruit thenceforth, well; but if not, thou shalt cut it down.
(Luke 13:6-9). Again we see the monumental importance of works…the tree (Christian) that bears no fruit (grace-empowered good works) is eventually ‘cut down’.

 

[Raphael]

I wonder if you are a person actually wanting an honest answer? It seem more like someone wanting their own answer.

Our faith teaches that all who are predestined for salvation will be saved. Knowledge of exactly who are in their number remains in the realm of God. Our faith also teaches that to presume we must be saved because of God’s promise, or that we are actually worthy of salvation is a sin called presumption.

I agree with my brothers and sisters who pointed out that we strive with fear and trembling to reach that day when the infinitely good judge examines our life. Most non-catholic religions have this “we are saved,” attitude, but most agree with “except in the case of those who may backslide.”

Whereever there is true freedom of will there is possiblity of failure. I hope your not saying that once we recognize Christ as God and this opportunity for salvation that Jesus removes our free will and we are not capable of sinning or of failure to know, love and serve our blessed Lord.

 

[StFrancis2]

Ozzie:

This is a TOTAL distortion of the Biblical message regarding salvation. What Christ did on our behalf on the cross He did completely and perfectly, and the sinner who believes in Him is, by that complete, perfect, and “*once for all *” sacrifice, completely and perfectly forgiven of ALL sins, and completely and perfectly saved forever. God is not yes and no at the same time, by yes, yes because of Christ.

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith in this grace in which we stand” (Rom. 5:1-2).

The sinner who, by faith, looks to the risen Christ, is the same as the Israelite who, though bitten, by faith looked to the bronze serpent lifted up in the wilderness and lived (Jn. 3:14-18; cf. Num. 21).

A true believer, according to God’s Word and Christ’s historical sacrifice on our behalf, can know without a doubt that he/she is forever saved. Because salvation is ALL of Christ, none of us. What a GREAT distortion of the Gospel (good news) message to say otherwise!!

So what did Jesus say about this? (WWJD?) Consider the direction given by Jesus on how to pray:
“…and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil…”
Now if Jesus saved us with no expectation for action on our part other than to profess a faith in Him, then why would he ask us to pray to the Father at all? Why would that be necessary if we’ve professed our faith that Jesus saved us? If nothing else, should not that direction be simply words of praise to the Father, with no request for additional concessions on His part?

 

[StFrancis2]

Ozzie:

This is a TOTAL distortion of the Biblical message regarding salvation. What Christ did on our behalf on the cross He did completely and perfectly, and the sinner who believes in Him is, by that complete, perfect, and “*once for all *” sacrifice, completely and perfectly forgiven of ALL sins, and completely and perfectly saved forever. God is not yes and no at the same time, by yes, yes because of Christ.

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith in this grace in which we stand” (Rom. 5:1-2).

The sinner who, by faith, looks to the risen Christ, is the same as the Israelite who, though bitten, by faith looked to the bronze serpent lifted up in the wilderness and lived (Jn. 3:14-18; cf. Num. 21).

A true believer, according to God’s Word and Christ’s historical sacrifice on our behalf, can know without a doubt that he/she is forever saved. Because salvation is ALL of Christ, none of us. What a GREAT distortion of the Gospel (good news) message to say otherwise!!

So what did Jesus say about this? (WWJD?) Consider the direction given by Jesus on how to pray:
“…and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil…”
Now if Jesus saved us with no expectation for action on our part other than to profess a faith in Him, then why would he ask us to pray to the Father at all? Why would that be necessary if we’ve professed our faith that Jesus saved us? If nothing else, should not that direction be simply words of praise to the Father, with no request for additional concessions on His part?

 

[StFrancis2]

JesusFreak16:

I am Protestant. How many of you already “know” that I will not be going to heaven, even though you are not omni-present and you cannot see my heart?
I hope none, but there are bound to be some… I want an honest answer, even though I know I am not going to hell. “How do I know I am not?” do you ask? Well, I do not see the need to explain to you… If you would like me to, please feel free to ask me.
I am not afraid. You are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and you do not want to hurt me, you want the best for me. I have every confidence in you.

God’s Peace~ Lisa

Dear Lisa,
I hope you are going to heaven but no one can “know” that for certain (except God). Certainly the devil wants you to think you know that you’re going to heaven. It gives him greater flexibility in working with you. The devil is the father of lies with his first sin being that of pride. Your statement sounds a lot like arrogant pride. With humility, reconsider that certainty you express, and then follow the path away from the devil and toward the fullness of truth.

 

[StFrancis2]

JesusFreak16:

I am Protestant. How many of you already “know” that I will not be going to heaven, even though you are not omni-present and you cannot see my heart?
I hope none, but there are bound to be some… I want an honest answer, even though I know I am not going to hell. “How do I know I am not?” do you ask? Well, I do not see the need to explain to you… If you would like me to, please feel free to ask me.
I am not afraid. You are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and you do not want to hurt me, you want the best for me. I have every confidence in you.

God’s Peace~ Lisa

Dear Lisa,
I hope you are going to heaven but no one can “know” that for certain (except God). Certainly the devil wants you to think you know that you’re going to heaven. It gives him greater flexibility in working with you. The devil is the father of lies with his first sin being that of pride. Your statement sounds a lot like arrogant pride. With humility, reconsider that certainty you express, and then follow the path away from the devil and toward the fullness of truth.

 

[Wil_Peregrin]

Too many posts, and way too late at night.

So just one comment.

Back on page 1, a Protestant quoted someone, probably BB Warfield or AW Pink from the sound of it, accusing Catholics of trying to escape Divine Grace.

I cannot imagine that -any- devout Catholic would want to escape Divine Grace!!! As near as I can tell, devout Catholics seek God’s Grace day in and day out, morning, noon and night, and put most of us to shame.

 

[CAtoIL]

MrS:

Simply put, Catholics put the hope of their salvation in Jesus Christ, Our separated brethren have a new belief that often puts their hope of salvation in their belief. Luther needed to adapt this thinking due to his obsession with sin - hence he was a dung heap only covered with snow. Catholic thought (which most Catholics have not been taught) teaches the true regeneration of baptism, and the true reconciliation of confession.

We both desire the same thing…eternity in heaven. But The Church makes available all that Christ has given it. Only the Catholic Church has the full deposit of Faith. We believe we are saved only by Grace, through Faith, working in Love.

MrS

MrS:

What is the official Catholic Church position regarding protestants? Are we able to attain salvation outside the Catholic Church?

 

[Randell]

nucatholic:

I have hope that I will, but not to the point that I am 100% sure. Thats why we “work out our salvation with fear and trembling.”

this is a great point. I think we can hope and pray and work towards our salvation. GOD only knows.
He has give us the tools to try and understand how to get to heaven. It is our job to understand them.

 

[Randell]

I have also searched different faiths. I have found no reason to leave the Catholic church (as a whole) I say as a whole because there are bad teachers of Catholic faith. It does not mean that all Catholic churches are bad. They are suppose to be the same but if you have the liberty to go to different churches of Catholic faith you will see that the doctrine is the same but the way it is taught is sometimes different.

This may help you, I find that when I talk to someone who is upset with the Catholic faith it is because they were taught wrong. Through searching, I have found a great Catholic church family. I am still Catholic, just going to a different church.

Point is: Dont loose track of what is right because of whom is teaching. Find someone who can teach it right.