I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

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Conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Born…of the…spirit.

Are the two not saying basically the same thing? Or am I comparing unrelated statements?

Greg
Greg,

I hope you’re not reading a different version of the Bible. It says: He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit… born of the Virgin Mary…" (not born of the spirit).

There is error in your understanding.

Pio
 
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hlgomez:
born of the Virgin Mary (not born of the spirit).
I am not making the distinction between conception and natural birth from a mother.I am making a distinction between being born of flesh and born of spirit.

The word “born” in John 3:6 is not referring to being physically born from a mother’s womb.

So, I am asking if the meaning of the word “born” in John 3:6 also applies to “the Word became flesh”

Jesus is the bread came down from heaven. His flesh is “born” from Heaven. The Word became flesh.

Jesus says the flesh profits nothing. Therefore it seems clear that the flesh that profits our salvation is His flesh that is “born” of spirit.

Look at John 3:6 “What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.”

The flesh that profits nothing (John 6:63) is flesh born of flesh not flesh born of spirit.

In John 6 Jesus is teaching that He is the bread come down from Heaven. I see this as distinguishing between flesh born of flesh and flesh born of spirit (refer to John 3:6).

Greg
 
As a Catholic, you believe that the bread is no longer bread but Jesus. So yes, even though it appears to be bread you are not seeing bread. Is it true that Jesus in Heaven is a union of flesh and spirit?
Greg
Greg, Aren’t you a “catholic”?

Anyways, Yes, we believe that the Eucharist becomes the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. In other words–it is Christ himself present in the Blessed Eucharist after the consecration of the priest.

Jesus, from the moment He was conceived, is one Person. In that One Person of Jesus is both Human and Divine–never two Persons but One. Jesus human nature is inseparable and is united with Him at the right hand of God the Father in heaven. It is this same Jesus, both Human and Divine, that will come again to judge the living and the dead.
When we see the Eucharist, we are not seeing bread, so how do we explain our sight of the Eucharist?
Do you believe that Jesus is God? And that He came to this world in human form by being born of the Blessed Virgin?
Now you doubt that we are not seeing Jesus in the humble appearance of bread and wine. How can you believe that this same Lord, Almighty and Eternal God, unseen by man, appeared to us in a humble form of a human being? This gift of His Body and Blood in the Eucharist is the greatest gift that God has given us so that we may partake of it and have eternal life.

If you yourself believe in God but doesn’t see Him, then why doubt in the Eucharist?

Pio
 
Jesus is the bread came down from heaven. His flesh is “born” from Heaven. The Word became flesh.

Greg
Greg,

Granting that your statement is true, then why would God need a human being to be born into the world? He could have descended amd appeared on earth right away.

Jesus wasn’t in the “flesh” before He came down from heaven. He assumed the human nature (flesh) right from the moment of His conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary.–This is the Catholic Faith.

Pio
 
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hlgomez:
Now you doubt that we are not seeing Jesus in the humble appearance of bread and wine.
No! You are completely misunderstanding me.

You said that you can’t see a spirit. I am saying that when you see the Eucharist, you are seeing Jesus, not a piece of bread. It appears to be a piece of bread but you are not seeing a piece of bread, you are seeing Jesus. So how can you say that you cannot see a spirit when the Eucharist is Jesus? Since Jesus is spiritual are we not in a sense seeing a spirit when we see the Eucharist even though it appears to be bread? Welcome to the mystery.

That is what I was saying.
 
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hlgomez:
Jesus wasn’t in the “flesh” before He came down from heaven.
Yes I know that is our faith and I believe that. You are misunderstanding me.
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hlgomez:
Jesus wasn’t in the “flesh” before He came down from heaven.
Yes. His flesh was “born” of spirit.

In this case “born” means that part of Mary’s flesh from which Jesus was conceived was “born of spirit”. We are to be reborn of spirit in baptism.

When we are to be “born” of water and spirit, this is not referring to physical birth from a womb.

Again, refer to John 3:6. I see a relationship between the incarnation and our being born of the spirit.

Greg
 
Here is an article about the incarnation:

newadvent.org/cathen/07706b.htm#II

From the article:

…when the Word took Flesh, there was no change in the Word; all the change was in the Flesh.

all new reality…was in the human nature.

I see this “new reality” as a “birth”. Not the nativity, but “birth” in the sense that “born” means in John 3:6.

The Word became flesh.
The flesh was “born” of spirit.

Make sense?

Greg
 
Katholikos said:
107 A.D. - On the way to his death by the jaws of a lion in the Coliseum, under Roman guard, Ignatius of Antioch wrote to the Philadelphians: 155 A.D. - Justin Martyr wrote an explanation of Christian belief to the Roman Emperor:

The problem with isolated quotes from men like these is they’re not doctrinal statements. It needs to be remembered that there’s a great difference between the half-poetic, enthusiastic, glowing language of devotion, in which the early writers spoke of the “eucharist,” and the clear, calm and cool language of logical and doctrinal definition.

Roman Catholicism leans heavily on the words of Ignatius, but you can’t be exactly certain what he means doctrinally, or that he is representing the Apsotolic view, or the consensus of his day. No doubt he presents a mystical view of the eucharist, but in the early church there developed also the symbolical view held by Tertullian and Cyprian, and the allegorical (or spiritualistic) view held by Clement of Alexandria and Origin.

The only divine source on the doctrine of the “eucharist” is the written Word of God. And twenty some years after the “Last Supper” the Apostle Paul, writing to the Corinthians, retains the physical elements of both the bread and the cup: “…for as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes” (1 Cor. 11:26). He didn’t say as often as you eat His flesh and drink His blood…". He presented no mystical or allegorical view, but explained what both the bread and cup represented, and the remembrance and proclamation value of the observance.
 
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Greg_McPherran:
Yes, and Catholics believe that God can also transform bread into Jesus as Jesus says in John 6.
The problem is John six doesn’t say God transforms bread into Jesus. In Jn. 6 Jesus speaks metaphorically regarding Himself as the Bread of Life, comparing Himself to the “manna” the ancients ate in the wilderness. Essentially what He was saying was that just as the life of the “manna” they ate in the wilderness was transferred to those who ate it and sustained their physical lives, so the life of Christ, resurrected, is transferred to the believer - at the time of faith. It’s not about His, dead, crucified body, but His resurrected life transferred to the believer. It’s quite simple, Greg. John six is not about the “eucharist,” it’s about coming to Christ by faith and receiving eternal life in Him.
 
Dear Ozzie,

You are using your personal interpretation of Scripture as a counterbalance to our 2000 year old Catholic understanding of Scripture.

2 Peter 1:20 (RSV)
“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.”

We have all seen the result of the authority of personal interpretation of scripture on Christian churches–they splinter and divide, disregarding Christ’s command to be “one”–as we now have over 30,000 Protestant denominations while still only one Catholic Church.

I pray that you will seriously ask yourself:

By what authority did I receive the books of the bible?

If they indeed are the final say in everything that is of Christ why do they say: John 21:25:
“There are also many other things that Jesus did; if everyone of them were written down, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written”

Clearly there is information about Christ not contained in Scripture.

Again my point is:
Who picked the books of your bible?

Who decided they were “the” authoritative books and others weren’t?

A key to these answers can be found by looking at our shared world history: it was the councils of the Catholic Church who picked the books of the bible, unless of course you read a version whose contents were adjusted some 1200 years later by Luther.

Where in the bible does it say CLEARLY that “personal interpretation” of scripture is authoritative way to interpret Scripture?

And what do you make of the fact that for 1500 years of Christianity the authority of personal interpretation was not practiced?

What do you make of the 1500 years on Catholic Christian history? Do you just throw that out the window because you, a human of the 21st century have discovered the “complete” truth of Scripture all by yourself?

I don’t realistically expect an answer from you on this because as I have noticed you disregard those questions you can not answer. I will not be offended. My hope is that they at least make you think about the basis for your confidence in Scripture and your personal interpretation of it “alone.”

If you admit to taking your interpretations from ANYONE other than yourself you then are doing just the same as we Catholics do–when we take the teaching of the Magisterium as authoritative. However, the big and truly significant difference is that we Catholics respect the teaching authority of the 2000 year old Church established by Christ–not just the current personal interpretations of random 21st century so-called “scholars.”

I recommend a book: By What Authority? by Mark Shae.

You obviously have enough time to keep writing back on these forums, I read the book in a day–please spend sometime taking some information in instead of just throwing it out.

Then take sometime to study your world history and early Church history–you’ll be surprised at how “new” and “novel” your personal interpretations are and how consistent those of Jesus Christ’s Catholic Church are.

A final note:
The last posting of yours I read was when you tried in vain to explain how the word HOPE did not in fact mean HOPE.
Your desperation was evident when you tried to actually stretch the meaning of hope to mean something definitive–something it surely is not under any circumstances. The translators of your bible used the word HOPE because they meant HOPE not certainty.
Hope: n. 1. expectation and desire combined, e.g. for a thing. 2a. person, thing or circumstance that gives cause for hope. b. ground of hope; promise. 3. what is hoped for. v. 1. feel hope. 2. expect and desire 3. feel fairly confident. (The Oxford Essential Dictionary)

I hope you please at least consider my suggestions.
While I hope, I, of course, can not be “certain” you will…

Sincerely your in Christ,
KL Stevens
 
The problem is John six doesn’t say God transforms bread into Jesus. In Jn. 6 Jesus speaks metaphorically regarding Himself as the Bread of Life, comparing Himself to the “manna” the ancients ate in the wilderness. Essentially what He was saying was that just as the life of the “manna” they ate in the wilderness was transferred to those who ate it and sustained their physical lives, so the life of Christ, resurrected, is transferred to the believer - at the time of faith. It’s not about His, dead, crucified body, but His resurrected life transferred to the believer. It’s quite simple, Greg. John six is not about the “eucharist,” it’s about coming to Christ by faith and receiving eternal life in Him.
Ozzie,

This is “your” interpretation of the Bible. Our interpretation doesn’t come from us but from the Magisterium.

If Jesus was just saying “metaphorically” in John 6, then why would He say in the Last Supper the words;“This is my Body… this is my blood.”? Did Jesus say; “This is a “symbol” of my Body… this is a “symbol” of my blood”? If He said that, then I will believe in what you say. But Scriptures doesn’t lie, so don’t change the real meaning of Jesus words in the last supper.

Pio
 
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Katholikos:
Part 2

The NT must be read holistically and within the context of the living, organic, teaching Church that wrote it. The Church did not come out of the Bible; rather, the Bible came out of the Church and pre-dates it by nearly 400 years. The NT is not an instruction book in Christianity; it is a reflection of the teachings of the Catholic Church. It was written by believers for believers who were already Christians, having been taught orally by the apostles. You have the wrong mindset for understanding the NT.

This is your interpretation. But it’s false. Many souls have been misled by it. 1 Cor 6:9: Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kindgdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Believe, and do as you please – this is a pernicious doctrine. You may believe whatever you wish, Ozzie, but if you die in a state of mortal (deadly) sin, you’re going to hell. We have God’s word on that! This is the teaching of the Apostles, not OSAS.

Salvation is a gift of God made possible by the sacrifice of Christ Jesus. But we cannot escape responsibility for own actions. We have to earn our salvation by keeping the Commandments and avoiding sin. St. Paul tells us that “the wages of sin is death” Rm 6:23. The Scriptures that refute OSAS are too numerous to post here. We need a separate thread for that.

Just remember: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of the Father in heaven” Mt 7:21-23. His Will is that we “be doers of the word and not hearers (believers) only, deluding ourselves . . .” James 1:22-25. Read Mt 25:31-46 to know what’s required for salvation. Faith is not enough.

JMJ Jay
Very well said. Kudos for this lucid exposition. :yup: :clapping:
 
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Katholikos:
Only once does the Bible mention faith alone – James 2:24: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
True, however, if you would honestly examine ALL Pauline soteriology, one must conclude salvation by grace through faith alone. In fact, Paul get extremely specific in respect to salvation and justification: “For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness a part from works: Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, And whose sins have been covered” (Rom. 2:4-7; cf. 3:19-31). “For by grace you have been saved through faith…” (Eph. 2:8) You know the rest! Paul goes on to say that the saved are “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works” (Eph. 2:10). And this is what James is reflecting on as well. Rome’s refuses to acknowledge Paul’s abundant teaching on these doctrines and makes its appeal to James’ few words to “justify” their own doctrinal stance. But, the fact is, unlike Rome, James does not abandon the fundamental, divine principle of justification through faith, as presented by Paul. But his argument is developed on the preface, “SHOW me your faith without the works, and I will SHOW you my faith by my works” (Ja. 2:18). He concludes that “faith” is perfected by works, he does not conclude that justification is perfected by works (vs. 22). Which is the teaching that comes out of Rome, albeit, contrary to Biblical revelation.
This deadly doctrine was certainly taught to me when I was a non-Catholic!
But you were NEVER taught that after being saved you can now live your life any ole sinful way you desire. That’s what you accused “Protestants” of teaching, and for that you need to make tracks to the confession booth and confess you lied. A truly saved person has no desire to live a life of constant sin anyway. He is regenerated by the Holy Spirit, made alive to the things of God, and desires to serve the Lord and be pleasing to Him. Out fear of “Purgatory” or Hell? No, but because he has been created new in Christ. The sheer joy of it. You quote Luther:
It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.
Do you know what the word “hyperbole” means? It’s an extravagant exaggeration in order to make a point. RC apologists love to disingenuously quote Luther’s hyperbolic statement. And you follow their bad example. How close are you right now to a confession booth?
The NT must be read holistically and within the context of the living, organic, teaching Church that wrote it.
Like I said, the “Church” didn’t write the Scriptures. God Himself, the Holy Spirit, chose certain men through whom He would “breathe” [theopneustos) out His written Word. If you’re going to explain things in that manner, then did the Roman “Church” deny Christ three times when Peter denied Him the night of His betrayal? Pax says that Judas was actually saved, so did the Roman “Church” betray Christ? When Paul rebuked Peter, was it actually the Roman “Church” that rebuked their own Pope? Or, was it the Roman “Church” rebuking itself? You see the derisory logic of that kind of misguided teaching? The Scriptures are of divine origin, not ecclesiastical.
 
Oh, so now according to St. Paul’s letter to the Romans, we are justified by faith **alone. **
 
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Ozzie:
Roman Catholicism leans heavily on the words of Ignatius, but you can’t be exactly certain what he means doctrinally, or that he is representing the Apsotolic view, or the consensus of his day. No doubt he presents a mystical view of the eucharist, but in the early church there developed also the symbolical view held by Tertullian and Cyprian, and the allegorical (or spiritualistic) view held by Clement of Alexandria and Origin.
Hi! 👋

I think an important point to make here is that there IS symbolism in the Eucharist but not merely symbolism. While you will find, in early Christian writings, allusions to the symbolic elements of the Eucharist you will never, ever find anyone denying the true presence. What a tremendously horrible heresy if it isn’t true. One would certainly expect to find at least one sentence in opposition to such a ridiculous claim. Yet we don’t. Anywhere.
What we do find, however, IS opposition to the idea that the bread and wine are not the true flesh and blood of Christ:

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God…They abstain from the Eucharist and from the prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His goodness, raised up again (Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyreans, 6,2)”.

Not only does Ignatius condemn the belief that the Eucharist is not the Flesh of Jesus, he makes absolutely clear that his readers understand that the Flesh of the Eucharist is the very same flesh which suffered, died and rose again. Since Jesus did not symbolically suffer, die and rise it’s clear that Ignatius was not speaking of symbolic Flesh in the Eucharist.
The only divine source on the doctrine of the “eucharist” is the written Word of God.
With all due respect, this is a Protestant Tradition. You make a claim for Scripture that Scripture does not make for itself.
And twenty some years after the “Last Supper” the Apostle Paul, writing to the Corinthians, retains the physical elements of both the bread and the cup: “…for as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes” (1 Cor. 11:26). He didn’t say as often as you eat His flesh and drink His blood…". He presented no mystical or allegorical view, but explained what both the bread and cup represented, and the remembrance and proclamation value of the observance.
I respectfully disagree with your take on 1 Cor. 11:26. Paul does present a mystical view of the Eucharist in the very next verses:

“Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord (vs. 27).”

To “answer for the body and blood of the Lord” is to be guilty of the crime of murder. How could one be guilty of the murder of Jesus Christ by eating mere bread and wine, merely sybmolic elements of the body and blood? One can’t. One can only be guilty of this crime if the elements are actually the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

" For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgement on himself (vs. 29)."

Discerning whose body? One’s own? What would discerning one’s own body, or the body of anyone else, have to do with receiving the bread and wine? Nothing. It must be a reference to Jesus Christ’s body. If one eats and drinks without discerning the body of Jesus Christ one is actually bringing judgement upon oneself. Another reference to it being tantamount to a criminal act. That’s nonsense if it’s merely symbolic.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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Ozzie:
Physically eating anything can do nothing
If physically eating anything can do nothing then you agree that it is worthless for Protestants to eat bread at communion?
 
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Ozzie:
There is nothing presumptuous about knowing you HAVE eternal life in Christ Jesus.
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Ozzie:
My confidence, dear friend, rests in the reality of an
empty tomb. So should yours!
Why do you say confidence?

What is it that you claim to have Ozzie, confidence or assurance of salvation?

Greg
 
Ozzie, Your profile tells us that you are not religious. If that means you don’t recognise any Church as truthful and/or valid and you do not attend a Church - where did you get so much knowledge of “christian” beliefs? Do you ocassionaly read The Bible?
 
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Ozzie:
Rome’s refuses to acknowledge Paul’s abundant teaching on these doctrines and makes its appeal to James’ few words to “justify” their own doctrinal stance. But, the fact is, unlike Rome, James does not abandon the fundamental, divine principle of justification through faith, as presented by Paul.
You obviously don’t understand Catholicism! This is why you are not Catholic?! Because you don’t understand Catholicism?!

Catechism of the Catholic Church
Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”

That’s the teaching of Rome Ozzie. In fact Rome speaks in the name of Jesus Christ by His authority. If you disrespect Rome, you disrespect Jesus. Rome speaks with authority conferred by Jesus to the apostles. We present the faith of the apostles.

James 2:20 “Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?”* (note that is a scripture quote not my words, but if it makes the point then so be it)*

Greg
 
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Katholikos:
Salvation is a gift of God made possible by the sacrifice of Christ Jesus. But we cannot escape responsibility for own actions. We have to earn our salvation by keeping the Commandments and avoiding sin. St. Paul tells us that “the wages of sin is death” Rm 6:23.
BINGO!!! “We have to earn our salvation” is the key to RC soteriology. A soteriology that nullifies the cross and ALL of N.T. revelation regarding the power of Christ’s cross to forever redeem through Christ’s blood.

Typically, you didn’t finish what Paul states in Rom. 6: “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 6:23, in total). Jesus said, “I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you BELIEVE that I am He, you shall die in your sins” (Jn. 8:24). Hence, the opposite is true for those who do BELIEVE: they do not die in their sins. Why? Because of the sin-bearer, the “Lamb of God” took away the sin of the world. And upon BELIEF, Scripture says, contrary to Rome, your sins are forever forgiven and you are “washed,” you are “sanctified,” and you are “justified” in the Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Cor. 6:11).

Dear friend, may you one day believe what Christ actually accomplished there on the cross. Just thinking, maybe the root of disbelief is the reason RC’ism displays the crucifix as the symbol of its church. It’s constantly claiming that His work on the cross “finished” nothing. Yet Christ Himself proclaimed otherwise (see Jn. 19:30). “Katholikos,” the cross is vacant and the tomb is empty!! The meaning of this is eternally significant for all who believe, and the N.T. explain it (Rom. 4:24-25]. Jesus is not a baby in the protective arms of His mother, He’s not still on the cross, He’s not a wafer, nor is He weak, bleeding heart in Heaven. He has risen and is seated at the right hand of the Majesty on High, and this AFTER HE MADE PURIFICATION OF SINS (Heb. 1:3).
 
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