I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[SPOKENWORD]

**
Jesus wasn’t born of Spirit. He was born of a human being–Mary–in the flesh.

We believe that Jesus Christ is both God–Spirit, and Man–Flesh. Jesus Christ has two natures-- Human and Divine. This is the Catholic Faith right from the very beginning of the Church. The basic Christian faith declares-- that Jesus suffered, died, and was buried. He died in the Flesh, not in His Divinity. That He truly descended into the abode of the dead and resurrected (His Body and Soul reunited) on the third day. And He, Body and Soul, ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father in glory.

Pio

**

Jesus was spirit right from the beginning.In the beginning was the Word and the Word was made flesh.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

rschermer2:

Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. He was Conceived by the Holy Spirit.

I am not making the distinction between conception and natural birth from a mother.

The word “born” in John 3:6 is not referring to being physically born from a mother’s womb.

So, I am asking if the meaning of the word “born” in John 3:6 also applies to “the Word became flesh”

Jesus is the bread came down from heaven. His flesh is “born” from Heaven. The Word became flesh.

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hi Spoken Word,

SPOKENWORD:

the Word was made flesh.

Yes, and Catholics believe that God can also transform bread into Jesus as Jesus says in John 6. Not to debate with you because you seem to have a humble attitude (a good sign for a Christian). Rather, to share the Catholic understanding with you.

Greg

 

[Ozzie]

Cubby:

Lisa - (1) If you have faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and (2) you’ve had the opportunity to be baptized and you’ve been baptized and (3) you’re walking in the light of Christ and (4) you are bearing good fruit (works!) - then rest assured that we Catholics believe that you are “saved”!

You list four conditions to determine one’s salvation. The latter three negate the first. If you trust in the latter three to determine your salvation, then you’ve never truly trusted in the first. It is impossible to believe in Jesus “as your Savior” if you don’t believe he’s actually saved you. That’s an oxymoron. Second, Ozzie - I’m 100% sure of my salvation as is evident in my works and my love for the church that Christ established. It’s not helping your cause to insult us. So the assurance of your salvation is based not on the cross and subsequent bodily resurrection of Christ Jesus, but your works and love for the Roman church. Like I said above, you negate the first by the latter three.

I didn’t insult you or your church. I stated the obvious based on the soteriological doctrines that come out of Rome. If you feel insulted, then that feeling is based on the doctrines taught by your church, not me.

Hopefully Lisa and Ozzie will join us some day.

I can’t speak for Lisa, my friend, but I could never give up the joy I have in knowing who I am now and forever in Christ (my eternal *“inheritance”) *for the religious uncertainties taught by Rome. My faith rests ONLY in Christ. Maybe, by the grace of God, you might come to have that confidence in Him, as well, and the joy and freedom that comes by faith in Him alone. If the frustrations and uncertainties of a religious life ever overwhelm you, you can always *“come home” *to Christ. He will NEVER cast you out (Jn. 6:37).

 

[Ozzie]

Katholikos:

As you probably know, having been Protestant, that to an Evangelical or Fundamentalist it makes no difference how one lives their life.

This, of course, is a bold face lie. You slander as some Romans slandered the Apostle Paul when He proclaimed salvation by grace through faith alone (Rom. 3:8). To accept Paul’s message that all the divine requirements needed to procure eternal salvation, and the freedom for God to impart eternal life to all who believe, was accomplished perfectly and completely through Christ’s once-for-all, substitutionary, expiatory, sacrificial work on the cross, does not then imply your scandalous accusation. God will judge the intentions of your heart. I’m sure even Cubby would admit such a thing was never taught to him when he was a non-catholic.

Would I be fair to the church of Rome if I were to say that they teach their devotees that they can live their lives in any sinful vice they choose as long as they exercises the sacrament of penance?

All that is necessary is to “accept Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior” and – if one was sincere when they did this – they think they have absolute assurance of their salvation that “nothing can separate them from the love of God” – not even sin.

What you state above is absolutely true when understood in the context of all that happens when one truly believes. It’s true, nothing can separate the true believer, forever redeemed through faith by the blood of Christ, from the love of God. Paul writes to the believers at Rome, *“If God is for us who is against us” *(read in context of Rom. 8:28-39). The N.T., especially the soteriology of the Pauline Epistles, clearly reveals that “sin” is not the barrier between man and God, particularly this side of the cross. If in your soteriology YOU make sin (any sin) the encumbrance, then you totally negate the cross of Christ. He came into this world to be the sin-bearer, and bear sin He did, for the divine intention that it be made possible for all men to be forever reconciled to God and forever justified in His sight by grace through faith alone, “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Cor. 5:21). You’ll notice that Paul never mentions sins in his list of things that some might think can separate us from the love of God. Reason being, the sin issue was taken care of by Christ on the cross. It’s a faith issue. Always was!

It’s all about Him, dear brother. It is not sin that will prohibit a man from eternally dwelling in the presence of a holy God, it will be his refusal to believe the gospel message of what Christ has done completely and perfectly on his behalf. To the unbeliever the cross is foolishness (to the religious man, as well).

 

[Greg_McPherran]

So you are saying you know for sure you are going to Heaven? A Catholic would not dare to be so arrogant before God. We would not dare to be so presumptious before the Lord. We just could not take that attitude. We believe you get to Heaven by hoping and being grateful and obeying Jesus for life, not saying “I’m done - going to Heaven”. :bigyikes:

Catholics just don’t have that attitude.

The Gospel conveys the spirit and attitude that we are to have.

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Ozzie:

You’ll notice that Paul never mentions sins in his list of things that some might think can separate us from the love of God…It is not sin that will prohibit a man from eternally dwelling in the presence of a holy God…

Hebrews 10:26 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment…

 

[Ozzie]

Greg_McPherran:

So you are saying you know for sure you are going to Heaven? A Catholic would not dare to be so arrogant before God. We would not dare to be so presumptious before the Lord. We just could not take that attitude. We believe you get to Heaven by hoping and being grateful and obeying Jesus for life, not saying “I’m done - going to Heaven”. :bigyikes:

Catholics just don’t have that attitude.

The Gospel conveys the spirit and attitude that we are to have.

Greg

My confidence, dear friend, rests in the reality of an empty tomb. So should yours!

 

[bkruiser]

Great Question…
I have no idea…
I have been told by Protestants that I will go to hell… I hope you don’t get that from any Catholic, we simply shouldn’t think that way.

PS… that doesn’t help much since we haven’t even said that Hitler is going to hell… so keep up the good work of fulfilling your faith!

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Ozzie:

Physically eating anything can do nothing.

Then you are saying that Protestant communion has no value.

Acts 5:14 Yet more than ever, believers in the Lord, great numbers of men and women, were added to them.

Who were the believers added to? The apostolic Church. This is the Church to be added to. You claim you are going to heaven, yet good luck if you don’t even join His Church.

The Catholic Church is in crisis. There is dissent within and Protestantism without. We know that Jesus’ Church will not fail. Follow him, take up your cross and help His Church. Don’t sit on the sidelines following your own way. Obey Jesus and follow him and help His Church. It is a Christian duty to serve the Lord His way, not ours.

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Ozzie:

My confidence, dear friend, rests in the reality of an empty tomb.

Oh, so now it’s ***confidence ***! .What happened to “I am sure I am going to heaven”?

What is it that you claim to have Ozzie, confidence or sure knowledge that heaven is your destiny?

Greg

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Greg_McPherran:

Hi Spoken Word,

Yes, and Catholics believe that God can also transform bread into Jesus as Jesus says in John 6. Not to debate with you because you seem to have a humble attitude (a good sign for a Christian). Rather, to share the Catholic understanding with you.

Greg

Your right I do not want to get into a debate,but I will tellyou this being a Roman catholic 99% of my life and now being on the other side of the fence To me recieving communion is coming into a spiritual union with the attitude of love and humility with my Lord Jesus Christ.I hate to see Christians tear up the Body of Christ. In the end when we meet in the kingdom you may say to me; Look at all the graces you lost and I in turn will say Yes,but Im here also.Praise God.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

SPOKENWORD:

To me recieving communion is coming into a spiritual union with the attitude of love and humility with my Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus did say that the flesh profits nothing so therefore consider that eating nothing more than bread has no profit.

John 6:61 “Does this shock you?”

SPOKENWORD:

I will tell you this being a Roman catholic 99% of my life…

You are always welcome back!

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Thanks Greg For Putting out the welcome mat.I love my catholic brothers and sisters.At this moment of my life God has called me out. I only have come closer to His Heart. I am whom He has called me to be,and where He wants me to be.I pray He keeps me under His Wings as I go to do His will in my life. I know we will meet again on that path into His Kingdom. God Bless…

 

[Greg_McPherran]

I’m in Southeastern Mass also. The events and the dissent have been difficult for Catholics. I myself have considered my options but I still can’t see leaving as one of them. We certainly have the right to express our dissatisfaction and not give money etc.

I still believe that the Catholic Church is the continuance of the apostolic Church. I have seen other churches and there is just something “official” about the Catholic Church. It has that truly authoritative splendor as if truly put in place by God. I just don’t see that in any other Church.

Just being honest from the heart.

Greg

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Greg_McPherran:

I’m in Southeastern Mass also. The events and the dissent have been difficult for Catholics. I myself have considered my options but I still can’t see leaving as one of them. We certainly have the right to express our dissatisfaction and not give money etc.

I still see that the Catholic Church is the continuance of the apostolic Church. I have seen other churches and there is just something “official” about the Catholic Church. It has that truly authoritative feel as if truly put in place by God. The Church has that “real” feel. You just have that feeling that it goes back to the apostles and is truly authorized by Jesus. I just don’t see that in any other Church.

Just being honest from the heart.

Greg

I believe you are where you are because its where God has called you to be. I say go where the Lord leads you. Let us never take our eyes off of the cross.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

I love my Protestant brothers a sisters dearly!!! My own biological brother is a pastor and awesome Christian. That being said, I don’t believe that God ever calls anyone out of the Church that he gave us. He allows people to leave, but he never, ever calls them out. I believe in my heart of hearts that that’s one example of how people can sometimes confuse their own wills with God’s. (I know that a few of out more Evangelical bretheran believe that those who enter the Church are confusing God’s will with their own as well ).

I love you all!!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Katholikos]

Part 1

Ozzie:

This, of course, is a bold face lie. You slander as some Romans slandered the Apostle Paul when He proclaimed salvation by grace through faith alone (Rom. 3:8).

Only once does the Bible mention faith alone – James 2:24: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

I’m sure even Cubby would admit such a thing was never taught to him when he was a non-catholic.

This deadly doctrine was certainly taught to me when I was a non-Catholic! As a student of religion, I can state unequivocally that it is the doctrine of many Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants.

The doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved was first declared by Martin Luther. It is iterated (or reiterated) in a letter to Philip Melanchthon which scholars have named *Let Your Sins Be Strong. * The salient part is as follows:

**"Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think
such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

On the day of the Feast of St. Peter the Apostle, 1521"**

Emphasis added. It’s Luther’s “bold face lie,” not mine . John Calvin twisted this novel doctrine to suit himself and called it Perseverance of the Saints. POS means that the elect cannot lose their salvation, regardless of what they do.

What you state above is absolutely true when understood in the context of all that happens when one truly believes. It’s true, nothing can separate the true believer, forever redeemed through faith by the blood of Christ, from the love of God.

First you say its a “bold face lie,” then you say it’s true! This is a doctrine invented in the 16th century. Jesus and the Apostles didn’t teach it; Luther and Calvin were the first.

Continued

 

[Katholikos]

Part 2

Paul writes to the believers at Rome, *“If God is for us who is against us” *(read in context of Rom. 8:28-39). The N.T., especially the soteriology of the Pauline Epistles, clearly reveals that “sin” is not the barrier between man and God, particularly this side of the cross.

The NT must be read holistically and within the context of the living, organic, teaching Church that wrote it. The Church did not come out of the Bible; rather, the Bible came out of the Church and pre-dates it by nearly 400 years. The NT is not an instruction book in Christianity; it is a reflection of the teachings of the Catholic Church. It was written by believers for believers who were already Christians, having been taught orally by the apostles. You have the wrong mindset for understanding the NT.

You’ll notice that Paul never mentions sins in his list of things that some might think can separate us from the love of God. Reason being, the sin issue was taken care of by Christ on the cross. It’s a faith issue. Always was!

This is your interpretation. But it’s false. Many souls have been misled by it. 1 Cor 6:9: Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kindgdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God."

No, It’s all about Him, dear brother. It is not sin that will prohibit a man from eternally dwelling in the presence of a holy God, it will be his refusal to believe the gospel message of what Christ has done completely and perfectly on his behalf. To the unbeliever the cross is foolishness (to the religious man, as well).

Believe, and do as you please – this is a pernicious doctrine. You may believe whatever you wish, Ozzie, but if you die in a state of mortal (deadly) sin, you’re going to hell. We have God’s word on that! This is the teaching of the Apostles, not OSAS.

Salvation is a gift of God made possible by the sacrifice of Christ Jesus. But we cannot escape responsibility for own actions. We have to earn our salvation by keeping the Commandments and avoiding sin. St. Paul tells us that “the wages of sin is death” Rm 6:23. The Scriptures that refute OSAS are too numerous to post here. We need a separate thread for that.

Just remember: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of the Father in heaven” Mt 7:21-23. His Will is that we “be doers of the word and not hearers (believers) only, deluding ourselves . . .” James 1:22-25. Read Mt 25:31-46 to know what’s required for salvation. Faith is not enough.

JMJ Jay

 

[hlgomez]

Jesus was spirit right from the beginning.In the beginning was the Word and the Word was made flesh.

Hope you didn’t misunderstood what I said. Yes He is Spirit, for God is Spirit. From eternity to eternity Jesus was. But He assumed our human nature, that is, our human nature.

PIo