I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

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Ozzie:
The “bread” that He would give “for the life of the world” is His body on the cross (6:51).
“the flesh profits nothing” cannot refer to Jesus’ flesh - true?

Then what does “the flesh profits nothing” refer to?

It refers to flesh born of flesh (John 3:6). But Jesus’ flesh is not flesh born of flesh.

Your communion is not the flesh of Jesus come down from heaven therefore your communion is “flesh born of flesh” that is “the flesh profits nothing”. Our communion is “flesh born of spirit”

Since “the flesh profits nothing”, your communion profits nothing.

Still waiting for a response.

Greg
 
Part 1
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Ozzie:
You have no idea what ALL the first Christians believed, and you’re assuming they were all without error in their beliefs. In your own way you’re elevating them all to the office of Apostle. My goodness man, there were false doctrine being propagated in the Church even in Apostolic times.
Hmmmm. Then Jesus Christ, who was God, could not and did transmit his message of salvation through His Apostles to His Church and through His Church to succeeding generations – without error – so that all men in every age could know the Truth. Jesus may have taught the Truth, but there is no way for anyone else to know it with certainty. Salvation is therefore a ****-shoot. Christianity is, at best, a guessing game.

Actually, Ozzie, the false doctrines were outside the Church – they’re called “heresies.” 😃
Not even the early writers, who touched the lives of the Apostles, wrote on all the doctrines in the N.T.
Christianity, like Judaism before it, was transmitted orally. Some of this oral tradition was eventually written down and collected and became the NT; the remainder was preserved through extra-biblical means. Both are the Word of God. Jesus didn’t write a book, nor did he tell anyone else to write. Few people could read and write until many centuries later. Neither the sacred writers of the NT nor the Early Church Fathers intended to write an instruction book on Christianity. But since the 16th century, Protestants have attempted to make the Bible into a textbook.
Plus, their writings were not divinely inspired.
Since it was the Catholic Church that identified those writings that were divinely inspired, and the writings of the ECF’s were excluded, I’ll take the Church’s word for it.😃
Only the Scriptures have that authority and inerrancy.
Do tell me how you know which writings are Scripture. And how you tell the difference between a “divinely inspired” writing and one that is not “inspired”.:bowdown2: And tell me what good a collection of inerrant writings is without an inerrant translator and teacher! How do you know the collection itself is inerrant, unless there was an inerrant collector? Show me the inerrant list of inerrant books!
The Scriptures were written so that subsequent generations of believers would know exactly what to believe regarding faith and practice.
Oh. It’s an instruction book in Christianity? NOT. The Bible is a collection of writings, written at different times and locations, for different audiences, and for different reasons. The NT is the Catholic Church’s own record of her spiritual journey during the first 100 years or so of her existence. It confirms the teaching of the Church, but it is not the original source of her teaching and beliefs. The Catholic Faith “came to us through the Apostles” (Latin-rite Liturgy), not from reading a book.

And if subsequent generations of believers know exactly what to believe after reading it, why are there so many different opinions about what it means among Protestant Christians, all based on the same 66-book version of the Bible? And so many differing opinion about morality?
That’s why an exegetical study of the Scriptures is important, even for those born again by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit regenerates the believer so he can understand the things freely given to us by God (1Cor. 1:12), but the believer himself must still accurately handle the Word of God (2 Tim. 2:15).
Let me guess: Those who do not hold the same opinions you do are not “handling it accurately.” 😃

(Continued)
 
Part 2

Ozzie wrote:
The Bible was authored by the Holy Spirit through men whom the Holy Spirit chose to write through.
But what is the Bible? Different groups, all considering themselves Christians, have different Bibles; e.g. some have 81 books (Ethiopian Orthodox), others as few as 66 (Protestants).
It was wirtten FOR the Church, by the Holy Spirit through chosen men. Yes, I agree, the history of Christianity is the history of the “Catholic” Church; the “historic” Catholic Church, not restricted to the Roman Church. Read the Book of Acts.
The one and only Catholic Church is the true, historic, universal church founded by Jesus Christ. Others have “borrowed” the name. Yes, Acts is the first history of the Catholic Church, written by Luke at the same time he wrote his Gospel.
There is nothing “cleansing” or “purging” about the fire revealed in these passages. It is a “revealing” fire (judgment) which reveals the “quality” of a man’s work. It is about “rewards” and loss of “rewards.” It’s not even remotely about the extrabiblical idea of “Purgatory.” You see, you’re reading your tradition into Scripture. You’re not accurately handling the Word of truth, which is your respnsibility.
The problem with your argument is that the New Testament is based on the teachings of the Catholic Church, not the other way around. And the Apostles, being Jews, believed in Purgatory, though they didn’t have a name for it. The NT was written by Catholics for Catholics, by believers for believers.

St. Paul founded the Church at Corinth about the year 51. He lived there for a time and taught the faith to the Corinthians orally. He ordained others to positions of authority before he moved on. Later, they wrote to him, and he answered them. Unfortunately, we have only half the correspondence; the letter from the Corinthians was lost in antiquity. But St. Paul wasn’t teaching doctrine in this (or any) letter; he was reminding them of what he had taught them when he was with them. But St. Paul’s reference to Purgatory in unrecognizable to a come-lately Protestant. If your doctrines went back to the first century, you could understand.
 
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Greg_McPherran:
No response? Matthew 23:12 "Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; but whoever humbles himself will be exalted." I invite you to contact a parish near you. You will be welcomed!
I would respond Greg, but I had absolutely no idea what you were stating in your post. If you want dialogue, then dialogue. Don’t just post Scripture verses and assume I know where you’re coming from. I assume the Matt. 23:12 quote is about me? If so, when or where have I exalted myself on this thread. I have only presented Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross as the basis for the salvation of all men: forgiveness of ALL sins; reconciliation to God; redemption from the penalty of sin; justification; and the grounds for satisfying the offended holiness of God because of man’s sin. The fact that I have expressed personal confidence in the Person and finished work of My Lord, and the divinely inspired written Word of God that reveals these infinite truths, is no reason to accuse me of exalting myself. Did I say I was crucified for you? Did I say that you should be baptized in my name (1 Cor. 1:13)?. Did I ever claim to be *“vicar of Christ” *on earth? Did I ever claim to have the power to forgive sins or retain sins? Did I ever claim to have the power to turn common bread into the “body and blood” of Jesus Christ? Did I ever claim to have the power to reduce one’s time in “Purgatory?” Did I ever claim to be the “mediator” between man and Christ? No! I have only exalted the Lord Jesus Christ and what the Scriptures reveal regarding eternal salvation through faith in Him - and Him alone. And on this basis, no, a “parish near me” would not welcome me. I put my faith not in any Church, Roman or otherwise; not in any extrabiblical dogma, not in pastors, priests, popes or prelates; but in the Person and work of Jesus Christ alone. For the day will come when I will have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ - alone. And if I have sinned against Him by putting my faith in Him alone, then He alone can tell me. I belong to Him, bought and paid for, in full, by His precious blood (1 Pet. 1:17-21).
 
My previous post and the link that I asked for a response to doesn’t even contain Matthew 23:12. Plus in my post that had Matthew 23:12 you could see that I had quoted from a previous post so you could easily know what I was seeking a response to. However, I will repeat it again here.

I have repeatedly asked for a response to this post that I have made two times before (repeated here again):

=== Begin Post That I Seek a Response To ===
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Ozzie:
The “bread” that He would give “for the life of the world” is His body on the cross (6:51).
“the flesh profits nothing” cannot refer to Jesus’ flesh - true?

Then what does “the flesh profits nothing” refer to?

It refers to flesh born of flesh (John 3:6). But Jesus’ flesh is not flesh born of flesh.

Your communion is not the flesh of Jesus come down from heaven therefore your communion is “flesh born of flesh” that is “the flesh profits nothing”. Our communion is “flesh born of spirit”

Since “the flesh profits nothing”, your communion profits nothing.

=== End Post That I Seek a Response To ===

Greg
 
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Ozzie:
I have only presented Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross as the basis for the salvation of all men: forgiveness of ALL sins; reconciliation to God; redemption from the penalty of sin; justification; and the grounds for satisfying the offended holiness of God because of man’s sin.


I put my faith not in any Church, Roman or otherwise; not in any extrabiblical dogma, not in pastors, priests, popes or prelates; but in the Person and work of Jesus Christ alone. For the day will come when I will have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ - alone. And if I have sinned against Him by putting my faith in Him alone, then He alone can tell me. I belong to Him, bought and paid for, in full, by His precious blood (1 Pet. 1:17-21).
Ozzie,

Catholics completely agree with your first set of statements. But throughout your musings you have made many more statements then these and we have refuted them all with scripture.

Your second set of statements that I have quoted is quite revealing. First of all we do not put our faith in anyone other than the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This faith of ours demands that we believe and accept all that God has revealed to us. This includes such things as a Pope, bishops, presbyter(priests) etal. Now if you want to make the ridiculous claim that we put our faith in them, then you must also acknowledge that you put your faith in yourself, at least to the same degree, by believing that you can read the scriptures on your own and know the truth.

Nice try but it just doesn’t stand the test of scrutiny.
 
I agree it is presumptious and silly to assert “once saved always saved”. This Cavinistic approach, popular with Baptists for example, disregards free will. We can say no to Christ at any time and turn Him out of our heart and soul. It is an over simplification of the faith. One of the reasons we left the Protestant Churches is the failure to grasp or accept the mysteries of faith. Everything has to be in black and white and best explained in short and simple “sound bite” language.

We can trust in Christ and have reverent confidence that we will be with those we love in heaven. It is not something Catholics feel necessary to brag about on a continual basis.

Are we really to assume, for example, that a minister who takes sexual advantage of child in his church still has a free pass to heaven? I think it likely that people of that ilk will be taking the elevator to a lower level.
 
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Greg_McPherran:
My previous post and the link that I asked for a response to doesn’t even contain Matthew 23:12. Plus in my post that had Matthew 23:12 you could see that I had quoted from a previous post so you could easily know what I was seeking a response to. However, I will repeat it again here.

I have repeatedly asked for a response to this post that I have made two times before (repeated here again):

=== Begin Post That I Seek a Response To ===

“the flesh profits nothing” cannot refer to Jesus’ flesh - true?

Then what does “the flesh profits nothing” refer to?

It refers to flesh born of flesh (John 3:6). But Jesus’ flesh is not flesh born of flesh.

Your communion is not the flesh of Jesus come down from heaven therefore your communion is “flesh born of flesh” that is “the flesh profits nothing”. Our communion is “flesh born of spirit”

Since “the flesh profits nothing”, your communion profits nothing.

=== End Post That I Seek a Response To ===

Greg
I’ll respond to Jn. 6:63, but the rest of what you say above STILL makes no sense to me. The last part of 6:63 is how Jesus clears up what He said about eating His flesh and drinking His blood in context of all of Jn. 5-6: “The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.” Jesus was not demanding that they literally eat His flesh and blood, but that they believe in Him, and by beieving they have LIFE.

“Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I have said to you, that you have seen Me, and you do not BELIEVE” (Jn. 6:35-36).

Now if you’re going to take all His words literally in Jn. 6, like the “disciples” did and left Him (they erred because they took Him literally), then after you take your literal flesh and blood communion you should NEVER hunger (be in need of literal food) again. And you should NEVER be thirsty (be in need of literal water) again. Has this been your experience? If not, why not? This, according to your literal interpretation is the “literal” promise of Jesus.
 
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Ozzie:
I’ll respond to Jn. 6:63, but the rest of what you say above STILL makes no sense to me. The last part of 6:63 is how Jesus clears up what He said about eating His flesh and drinking His blood in context of all of Jn. 5-6: “The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.” Jesus was not demanding that they literally eat His flesh and blood, but that they believe in Him, and by beieving they have LIFE.

“Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I have said to you, that you have seen Me, and you do not BELIEVE” (Jn. 6:35-36).

Now if you’re going to take all His words literally in Jn. 6, like the “disciples” did and left Him (they erred because they took Him literally), then after you take your literal flesh and blood communion you should NEVER hunger (be in need of literal food) again. And you should NEVER be thirsty (be in need of literal water) again. Has this been your experience? If not, why not? This, according to your literal interpretation is the “literal” promise of Jesus.
Ozzie,

They left because they took Him literally. That was not their error. Their error was that they would not accept what Jesus said. If if was a misunderstanding Jesus would have cleared it up and explained what he did mean. Your last claim is equally preposterous. The body and blood of the Lord in the Eucharist is a spiritual food for our souls and our spiritual well being. It is not a food and drink that is meant to sustain our normal calorie intake. What would be the benefit and purpose in that? After all we have food for that. It is our immortal souls that the Lord is concerned about. Yes, eventually our bodies will have benefited as well in the resurrection, but this food and drink in the Eucharist is food and drink for the spiritual journey.
 
Hi Ozzie,
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Ozzie:
I’ll respond to Jn. 6:63, but the rest of what you say above STILL makes no sense to me.
I will address your other statements but let’s take this one step at a time starting with what I have been referring to.

Again, one step at a time if you will.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail.

(some Bibles have “the flesh profits nothing” or similar)

When Jesus says “the flesh profits nothing” in John 6:63, what does He mean?

Greg
 
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Pax:
Ozzie,

They left because they took Him literally. That was not their error. Their error was that they would not accept what Jesus said. If if was a misunderstanding Jesus would have cleared it up and explained what he did mean. Your last claim is equally preposterous. The body and blood of the Lord in the Eucharist is a spiritual food for our souls and our spiritual well being. It is not a food and drink that is meant to sustain our normal calorie intake. What would be the benefit and purpose in that? After all we have food for that. It is our immortal souls that the Lord is concerned about. Yes, eventually our bodies will have benefited as well in the resurrection, but this food and drink in the Eucharist is food and drink for the spiritual journey.
Pax Everything that comes from above is Spiritual. 😃
 
mayra hart:
entrance to heaven is precede by a judgment: a judgment of what we have done in our live. in my own opinion i think that once we died an go to heaven god is going to receive us an sit us in a special movie theater were he is going to show us a movie of our live. in that movie it will show the good work and the bad things, then he will decided if he lets you in or if he send you to purgatory so ours souls can be purified. god bless you all
My sense tells me that you may not know of indulgences which the RC Church grants for the repiration of sin and to shorten or avoid altogether the temperary pains of hell referred to as purgartory. I personally think it is a travisty that so many Catholics are simply unaware of this important part of our faith.
 
Hey all,
Wow this thread is big, I would have thought that it would be at the end of the list by now. I was much more naive and I wanted to “stir things up” when I posted it, but now things are different. Sorry about that.
Anyway, some questions for MariaG and Kelly. I saw the conversation that you were having. You talked about how you were a Fundamentalist but you felt an emptiness. Now, it annoys me when people say how many ways that there are to God, through other religions. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life,” Jesus said, and I believe Him. However, couldn’t it be true that there can be more than one way to Jesus? I may be in favor of a “personal relationship” with Him through prayer and reading the Bible. You may prefer to know Him through the sacrements, Catholic doctrine, or other ways I am not aware of. Do you recognize both ways, or just your own?
I’m not trying to start anything. I am just asking.
~Lisa
 
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JesusFreak16:
Now, it annoys me when people say how many ways that there are to God, through other religions. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life,” Jesus said, and I believe Him. However, couldn’t it be true that there can be more than one way to Jesus? I may be in favor of a “personal relationship” with Him through prayer and reading the Bible. You may prefer to know Him through the sacrements, Catholic doctrine, or other ways I am not aware of.
~Lisa
Sorry to butt in here since you addressed this to others, but I’m going to anyway:) !

Anyway, my own two cents worth is that yes there are other ways to Jesus than through the one, holy Catholic Church but this is widest path to get there.

More importantly, I wanted to comment on the “personal relationship” through prayer and Bible reading - of course these ways to Jesus are not only merely allowed for us as Catholics but widely encouraged. After all, how much more personal can you get but to receive Him - Body, Soul and Divinity through the Eucharist.

Kris
 
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JesusFreak16:
Hey all,
Wow this thread is big, I would have thought that it would be at the end of the list by now. I was much more naive and I wanted to “stir things up” when I posted it, but now things are different. Sorry about that.
Anyway, some questions for MariaG and Kelly. I saw the conversation that you were having. You talked about how you were a Fundamentalist but you felt an emptiness. Now, it annoys me when people say how many ways that there are to God, through other religions. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life,” Jesus said, and I believe Him. However, couldn’t it be true that there can be more than one way to Jesus? I may be in favor of a “personal relationship” with Him through prayer and reading the Bible. You may prefer to know Him through the sacrements, Catholic doctrine, or other ways I am not aware of. Do you recognize both ways, or just your own?
I’m not trying to start anything. I am just asking.
~Lisa
Lisa,

Your beautiful quote of Jesus is so important. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life” says the Lord. As our Lord and Savior and our King, Jesus has set out His truths for us to follow. There really is only “one way.” Interestingly enough, in the earliest times of Christianity the followers of Jesus called the New Covenant faith “The Way.” It was later that it became known as Christianity and the followers known as Christians.

There really is only “one way,” but it is fair to say that within “the way” there are many elements, spiritual tools, and spiritual aids. Reading scripture, contemplative prayer, group prayer, singing hymns, loving God, trusting God, giving thanks, asking for forgiveness, giving praise and adoration to God, having faith in God, meditating on Christ’s passion, attending Mass, receiving the sacraments, and many other things are all part of “the way.”

As Catholics we believe that Jesus laid out the way, and that He wants us to follow it according to His plan. We believe that the fullness of “the way” is found within the Catholic Church. From our point of view, “the problem for non-Catholics is not found in what they affirm, but in what they deny.” As separated brothers and sisters in Christ, we seek unity among all Christians and pray that the unity of the first thousand years of Christianity can be restored. The hope is that we are one communion and that all of our Christian brothers and sisters can recieve the precious body, blood, soul, and divinity of the Lord in the Eucharist. We believe that this is what Jesus wants and what He laid out for His covenant people. Each of us must seek that which Jesus wants for us. We cannot choose a way to Jesus that is “our” way.

The personal relationship you mentioned with Jesus is obviously a central part of your/my Christian faith. We believe that the Eucharist is the source and summit of our relationship with Jesus, as well as with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Those that truly love the Lord and know Him and love Him in the “true presence” have what we believe to be the closest relationship possible.

I am not suggesting that non-Catholic Christians cannot have a close personal relationship with the Lord. I am only saying that their relationship can be even more complete, and that they can rest assured that they are following “the way” layed out by Jesus Himself.

By the way Lisa, you always ask good questions. You seem to be a person that is genuinely seeking a knowledge of the truth. I know from one of your prior posts that you were afraid that people would think you were a troll. You can relax. You have always been straight forward and charitable in your approach, and you have nothing to fear.
 
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Writer:
I agree it is presumptious and silly to assert “once saved always saved”. This Cavinistic approach, popular with Baptists for example, disregards free will. We can say no to Christ at any time and turn Him out of our heart and soul.
First of all *“once saved always saved” *is not a "Calvinistic “approach” to anything. It’s a Biblical revelation. Though the Bible doesn’t use that particular phrase, the concept is based on what God “gifts” the one who puts his/her faith in the Person and work of Jesus Christ. You think it’s presumptious and silly only because you don’t understand, or maybe refuse to accept, the work that Christ accomplished on behalf of all men on the cross, and that which He continues to do as the believer’s High Priest and Advocate before the Father in Heaven. There’s no “mystery” to the faith or divine salvation. “Mystery” in the Bible is something once not known but has now been revealed. God, through Christ, has made all of salvation known and it is simple and unambiguous.
We can trust in Christ and have reverent confidence that we will be with those we love in heaven. It is not something Catholics feel necessary to brag about on a continual basis.
“For by GRACE you have been save THROUGH faith, and that not of yoursleves, it is the GIFT of God; not as a result of works, that NO ONE SHOULD BOAST…” The point is, when it comes to true salvation, no one has anything at all to “brag” about. It is God who first demonstrated His love toward us in Christ, even while we (corporately) were yet His enemies, and through the cross He reconciled us to Himself (Rom. 5:9; 2 Cor. 5:18-19). It wasn’t your idea or my idea that the Son should leave Heaven. It wasn’t your “love” toward God that invoked the Son to take on humanity and, as a sin offering, die in our stead. All the work to procure our salvation was done by God so that when a man puts his faith in the Person and work of His Son, he is GIFTED salvation - to the glory of the Son. Scripture cannot be more clear on this all important doctrine. There is no other “confidence,” besides Christ Himself, that any man will ever dwell in the presence of a holy God. It is presumptuous indeed to believe that your salvation has anything to do with you or your “love” toward God. “We love because He first loved us” (1 Jn. 4:19). When the Word of God says “He saved us” or that “we have been justified,” it means just that.
Are we really to assume, for example, that a minister who takes sexual advantage of child in his church still has a free pass to heaven?
Certainly not, not even a Catholic “Priest.” We’re never to *“assume” *anyone’s salvation. But no one will ever go to Heaven for not sexually abusing a child, either. There is no divine list of things we must do and must not do in order to go to Heaven or be prohibited from entrance. Some saints were the most vile men prior to their putting faith in Christ and becoming saved (read 1 Cor. 6:10-11). It’s Christ who cleanses. Don’t corrupt the Gospel message of divine grace because of the corrupt acts of men.
 
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Pax:
Please note that in verse 3:13 Paul points out that “each man’s work will be manifest; for the Day will disclose it,” This phrasing in scripture refers to the day when someone dies.
The text says nothing about the day of a man’s death. “Day” is in reference to the “day” of that particular judgment. It is impossible for this to refer to “Purgatory” because Paul states in 2 Cor. 5:6-8 that when the believer dies he goes directly “home” to be with the Lord. He then goes on to say that whether “home” (with the Lord) or “in the body” (alive here on earth) we are to be pleasing to the Lord. Reason being we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ to be recompensed for our deeds (i.e., works; vs. 9-10). Based on this text this judgment does not happen at the time of death but is yet future for all believers.
Now please be aware that the some of the man’s work will not survive and some of his work will survive. He may suffer loss. That which is burned away(purged) is what we call purgatory “though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” This is the perfect definition of purgatory (our final sanctification), but there is much more to go with this verse.
These passages have nothing to do with the sanctifying process of anyone. It is a judgment to evaluate the believer’s WORKS, and it is the “fire” (figurative) that reveals (not purges) the quality of those works: *“each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built upon it *(the foundation, Jesus Christ, vss. 10-11) remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; (1 Cor. 3:14-15). Purgatory is about purfying people, not at all about receiving REWARDS nor revealing worthless “works.” According to the Catholic Catechism, paragraph 1030, "All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified (this is referring to a person, not works), *are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.” *The judgment in 1 Cor. 3 has nothing to do with a believer achieving a degree of “holiness” needed to enter the joy of heaven. According to the Second Vatican Council, p. 63, “Purgatory” has to do with sins, not works (and certainly not rewards). I quote: "Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments." The passages in 1 Cor. 3 speak absolutely nothing about expiating sins. These passages speak nothing of this blasphemous doctrine which totally disregards the finished, expiatory, substitutionary work of Jesus Christ on the cross for all man’s sins. The doctrine of “Purgatory” is nothing short of a sham and insults the cross of Christ!!! You do GREAT violence to those 1 Cor. passages when you apply them to this unholy, unbiblical doctrine.
 
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