I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[Pax]

JesusFreak16:

Ozzie said that PHYSICALLY eating does nothing. We do this in remembrance of Him. Ozzie didn’t contradict himself. PHYSICALLY eating does nothing PHYSICALLY to our bodies. The symbol and action of eating is what “does something.”
~Lisa

Lisa,

There are a large number of posts on the Eucharist in this thread. I believe the strength of Catholic teaching has been well presented and demonstates clearly that Jesus was not speaking symbolically. Carefully review these and prayerfully reflect on what is being said.

In the final analysis, Catholics are either trapped in a form of Eucharistic idolatry or non-Catholics are missing out on the source and summit of the Christian faith. Since scripture, the Church Fathers, and the constant teaching of the Church since Pentecost affirm that the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of Jesus, I would hope that you pray diligently on this all important topic. Jesus wishes to give Himself to you in an unsurpassed manner. Jesus keeps His promises.

 

[Ozzie]

Pax:

Once again, you’ve made a totally unsubstantiated claim. You are saying that in John 6 that Jesus is speaking to unbelievers. Excuse me but among those that He was speaking to were the apostles.

The context of who He was addressing is found in John 6:26ff. They were those whom He fed the day prior, and they now followed Him because they wanted more material freebies. Jesus told them not to work for food that perishes, but for that which endures to eternal life (vs. 27). The responded with questioning Him what they should do to work the works of God. “Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you BELIEVE in Him whom He has sent” (Jn. 6:29). Notice the only “work” that is recognized for eternal life? In verse thirty-six Jesus says to them (the same people described above), “I am the Bread of life.” He was addressing an unbelieving crowd (6:30). They wanted material food from Him but He, the “Bread of life,” offers them far more important spiritual food. He said to them “he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and He who believes in Me shall never thirst.” Obviously He means spiritual hunger and spiritual thirst, or else by your interpretation you would never have to eat or drink again after eating the “eucharist.” Now get this, Pax: “But I said to you, that you have seen Me and YET YOU DO NOT BELIEVE” (vss. 35-36) They were unbelievers He was addresing, my friend!

“This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed in him.”[John 2:11] Apparently, His disciples did believe in Him and Jesus was talking to believers. Now this creates another problem for you because it demonstrates that if they were believers then (by your definitions) they were saved and “once saved they were always saved.” But if this were true, how could they leave Jesus and no longer follow Him?

It’s amazing how you handle the Scriptures, Pax. You’re under the impression that just because men were called Christ’s "disciples’ they were considered saved. There were many teachers in Christ’s day with “disciples”. Jesus also had a following beyond the twelve He Himself chose. What Jesus said to them in Jn. 6 tested the hearts and revealed the unbelief of those false disciples, causing them to leave Him. That’s why He said it without explanation and allowed them to go their own way (6:64). He never did anything without a definite purpose. And He certainly wasn’t going to govel after unbelievers.

To understand Jn. chapter two you need to read it in the context of Jn. chapter one. It names the disciples who went to the wedding with Him. But where it says His disciples “believed” in Him, because of the miracle of the water into wine, it wasn’t a faith unto salvation. The most you can say at that moment of time is they believed He was the Messiah. Not until after His death, burial and resurrection would they, or could they, express the faith that saves unto eternal life (see Rom. 10: 9-11). But Jesus brought them all the way to that point, He lost none of them except Judas, the “son of perdition” who was never truly one of them anyway (Jn. 17:12).

 

[Greg_McPherran]

“But I said to you, that you have seen Me and YET YOU DO NOT BELIEVE” (vss. 35-36) They were unbelievers He was addresing, my friend!

Actually Ozzie, if you do not believe in the Real Presence, you are one of the unbelievers.

You interpret the flesh profits nothing (John 6:63), as “Physically eating anything can do nothing.” Then you say you eat the bread in remembrance yet you know you claimed that eating can do nothing.

What you need to realize is that Jesus was not referring to His flesh when He said “the flesh profits nothing.” The flesh that profits nothing is “flesh born of flesh” (John 3:6).

Jesus in John 6 constantly emphasized that He is the bread from Heaven. He was teaching that His flesh is not “flesh born of flesh” but His flesh is “born” of the spirit (here “born” does not refer to the nativity but rather the reality of the incarnation which is Jesus’ conception by the power of the Holy Spirit.) Jesus also asks them “What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?” The purpose of this is that if they see Him ascend they will realize that indeed He is from Heaven and that His flesh is born of spirit since He is from Heaven.

The key to understanding John 6 is to understand the difference between flesh born of flesh and flesh born of spirit. The bread come down from Heaven is flesh born (conceived) of spirit not flesh born of flesh.

In fact it is your very communion (flesh born of flesh) that Jesus Himself says profits nothing. You believe that your communion just a piece of bread instead of the living Body of Jesus Christ! That bread is the flesh that profits nothing.

So in fact when Jesus said: “But I said to you, that you have seen Me and YET YOU DO NOT BELIEVE”

You are one of the unbelievers Ozzie unless you believe in the real presence.

You are welcome to the Holy Catholic faith and we all hope you join us in the glory and splendor of God’s truth that we all have humbly accepted including many former non-Catholics who can share their story with you.

Best to you Ozzie.

Greg

 

[j_arden]

Greg,

Assuming you mean Ozzie et al. are not believers in Christ by calling them unbelievers, your equating not believing in the real presence and being an unbeliever is at best uncharitable and not very Catholic. According to this line of thinking, only Catholic and Orthodox Christians are believers in Christ. Do you think that’s tenable?

Ozzie et al.,

Citing the “flesh profits nothing” verse proves too much if it proves anything. If we interpret this in a strict, literal way as being a constant truth, the death of Christ loses meaning because His death was “of the flesh” and the incarnation becomes inconsequential.

• JP

 

[Greg_McPherran]

j_arden:

Greg,
Assuming you mean Ozzie et al. are not believers in Christ by calling them unbelievers,…

Ozzie seemed to use that Scripture to claim the hearers were not believers in Jesus at all.

Ozzie:

Now get this, Pax: “But I said to you, that you have seen Me and YET YOU DO NOT BELIEVE” (vss. 35-36) They were unbelievers He was addresing, my friend!

I was thinking more in terms of showing Ozzie how he himself should not consider himself a believer as Jesus means in John 6.

Nonetheless, doesn’t Jesus teach us that belief in the Eucharist is essential to belief in Him?

 

[Greg_McPherran]

j_arden:

Ozzie et al.,

Citing the “flesh profits nothing” verse proves too much if it proves anything. If we interpret this in a strict, literal way as being a constant truth, the death of Christ loses meaning because His death was “of the flesh” and the incarnation becomes inconsequential.

This is also a good point. Ozzie stated that this means eating something profits nothing. I responded that he should then see that eating nothing more than bread (non-Catholic practice) profits nothing.

Also, I wrote this in my post to Ozzie:

Jesus was not referring to His flesh when He said “the flesh profits nothing.” The flesh that profits nothing is “flesh born of flesh” (John 3:6).

Jesus in John 6 constantly emphasized that He is the bread from Heaven. He was teaching that His flesh is not “flesh born of flesh” but His flesh is “born” of the spirit (here “born” does not refer to the nativity but rather the reality of the incarnation which is Jesus’ conception by the power of the Holy Spirit.) Jesus also asks them “What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?” The purpose of this is that if they see Him ascend they will realize that indeed He is from Heaven and that His flesh is born of spirit since He is from Heaven.

The key to understanding John 6 is to understand the difference between flesh born of flesh and flesh born of spirit. The bread come down from Heaven is flesh born (conceived) of spirit not flesh born of flesh.

 

[Katholikos]

Ozzie, et al.

“It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” Jn 6:63

Jesus’s teaching on the Eucharist ends with v. 58, as v. 59 makes clear.

The dialogue of verses 60-70 doesn’t take place at the same time; it is said later. It’s dealing with a new subject – ***faith – ***not the Eucharist. This was not taken into account when the text was divided into chapters (by Archbishop of Canterbury Stephen Langton, d. 1228). Verses as we have them today were added by a French printer (Robert Stephens) in 1551.

You interpret “spirit” to mean symbolic. Nowhere in the Bible is it ever used to mean symbolic. In scripture, ‘spiritual’ is just as real as the ‘material.’ In v. 63, Jesus is contrasting the natural or carnal man (“the flesh”) with the spiritual man – the man filled with faith. Compare 1 Cor 2:14, 3:3 to know what Jesus meant by “the flesh.”

Jesus says “my flesh” when discussing the Eucharist. He says “the flesh” when he refers to the carnal man who will not believe anything beyond his senses and reason.

If Jesus’s flesh is of no avail, his sacrifice is of no avail for "the bread which I shall give is my flesh."

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi everyone!

I saw this as a quote in someone’s post:

Salvation is a gift of God made possible by the sacrifice of Christ Jesus. But we cannot escape responsibility for own actions. We have to earn our salvation by keeping the Commandments and avoiding sin. St. Paul tells us that “the wages of sin is death” Rm 6:23.

Someone may already have pointed this out (I haven’t read every post) but the Church does NOT teach that we earn our salvation in any way.

Just wanted to clarify that.

In Christ,
Nancy

To all:

Thanks, Nancy, for pointing this out! I didn’t realize I had written that. It is a colossal mistake and a total misstatement of Catholic teaching. I was in a hurry and did not re-read what I wrote as I usually do, which is no excuse for the carelessness that resulted in this error. I have given comfort and aid to the enemy. No wonder Ozzie jumped on this! All I can say it that in my haste, my brain must have short-circuited to my former Protestant errors and way of thinking.

I meant to draw a distinction between salvation (which is a free gift of God, totally unmerited by us) and our Judgment, when we will be judged by what we have done, as Scripture makes clear. There is not a single verse in the Bible that says or even implies that we will be judged on our “faith.”

Ozzie believes (as I once did) in Once Saved, Always Saved, and that merely believing in the saving work of Christ gets your ticket to heaven permanent punched. I intended to contrast this with the Truth that we must “accept Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior” (which Catholics do at every Mass) and keep the Commandments, and we must persevere to the end.

“If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments” Mt 19:17.

"…but whoever endures to the end will be saved" Mt 10:22.

I apologize for the error. Mea culpa!

JMJ Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

 

[Cubby]

I get the feeling that this thread is coming to an end? With everyhting that’s been said and done, our positions are clear and yet there is only one Truth. My question is do we choose the truth that dates back to the time of Christ or do we choose the “truth” that has seen division, conflict, and quarrelling ever since the protestant reformation?

and then, I’m curious, Lisa and Ozzie (and other non-Catholics):

How many of you already “know” that us Catholics will not be going to heaven?

God’s peace and love to you all. And BTW Lisa, I’m a man!
(Is my signature too girly or something?)

Peace

Cubby

 

[Ozzie]

Katholikos:

There is not a single verse in the Bible that says or even implies that we will be judged on our “faith.”

Are you serious my friend?

“Truly, truly I say to you, he who hears my word, and BELIEVES Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and DOES NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, but has passed out of death into life” (Jn. 5:24). And there are hundreds more. Just start with the Gospel of John and take note of what Jesus says about the eternal value of belief in Him.

You see God has explicitly communicated to us in His immutable, inerrant Word the eternal value of Christ’s cross and our faith in Him alone for complete salvation/justification. But the legalist diligently searches the Scriptures to try to prove Him wrong. Isn’t that kind of arrogant?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Cubby:

I get the feeling that this thread is coming to an end? With everyhting that’s been said and done, our positions are clear and yet there is only one Truth. My question is do we choose the truth that dates back to the time of Christ or do we choose the “truth” that has seen division, conflict, and quarrelling ever since the protestant reformation?

and then, I’m curious, Lisa and Ozzie (and other non-Catholics):

How many of you already “know” that us Catholics will not be going to heaven?

God’s peace and love to you all. And BTW Lisa, I’m a man!
(Is my signature too girly or something?)

Peace

Cubby

Ill speak for myself. I honestly dont know which catholics are not geting to heaven,but I do believe many wont. Just look at the election results to see what percentage of catholics followed the teachings of Jesus Christ. Many are called but few are chosen. Im going to leave the judging up to our Lord to see which get in and which do not. I do not have the gift of reading hearts.

 

[Pax]

Greg,

Thanks for clarifying that for Ozzie (i.e. your post #500). I would also add, Ozzie, that you are wrong in saying that they were unbelievers. As I pointed out, Jesus was also speaking to the apostles and surely you would not contend that they were unbelievers. But of course we find out, in verses 6:7-71, that Judas does not accept what Jesus is saying either.

What you need to keep in mind is that a person can be a believer without being properly or completely discipled. This can be seen in Eph 4:15, 2 Thess 1:3, 1 Peter 2:2, and other verses. Greg makes a good point in that anyone today that does not accept the Eucharist as the body and blood of the Lord is not properly discipled. Denying this truth does not mean that a person fails to accept that Jesus is the one mediator that died for our sins and rose again on the third day. It merely means that a person’s faith is incomplete and that they are missing an important and essential truth of Christianity.

Ozzie, you cannot escape what scripture clearly says. These people were called disciples in verse 66 and were not referred to as unbelievers. They were specifically addressed as not believing what Jesus told them about eating His flesh and drinking His blood. And Greg is correct in pointing out that you also are a disciple but you do not accept everything that Jesus tells you. In saying that, I do not mean to be uncharitable. I say it only because it fits with scripture and because you obviously love God. The Lord truly wishes that you receive all of the benefits of His grace and divine plan. The fullness of truth is found in the Catholic Church and the Lord’s gift of the Eucharist awaits you.

 

[Pax]

SPOKENWORD:

Ill speak for myself. I honestly dont know which catholics are not geting to heaven,but I do believe many wont. Just look at the election results to see what percentage of catholics followed the teachings of Jesus Christ. Many are called but few are chosen. Im going to leave the judging up to our Lord to see which get in and which do not. I do not have the gift of reading hearts.

What you have said is sad but true and can be said of many of our non-catholic christians as well. I would note, however, that the statistics in this area have a few details worth examining. The statistics for those that are “serious” about their faith regardless of their identifiable denomination are much better. Other factors exist also. There is a real question as to how well informed many of these voters are. I’m not sure why so many are asleep at the switch but it is disheartening.

I have said this before and I’ll say it again. If every eligible Catholic and non-Catholic Christian in this country voted with an informed Christian conscience we would over turn abortion almost over night. There are many other social ills that could also be over come if people merely lived out what they profess to believe.

 

[Katholikos]

Ozzie:

Are you serious my friend?

“Truly, truly I say to you, he who hears my word, and BELIEVES Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and DOES NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, but has passed out of death into life” (Jn. 5:24). And there are hundreds more. Just start with the Gospel of John and take note of what Jesus says about the eternal value of belief in Him.

You see God has explicitly communicated to us in His immutable, inerrant Word the eternal value of Christ’s cross and our faith in Him alone for complete salvation/justification. But the legalist diligently searches the Scriptures to try to prove Him wrong. Isn’t that kind of arrogant?

The arrogance is in the denial of the teaching of the Apostles and assertion of a 16th century heresy.

This verse does not set down the criteria for Judgment. Matthew 25:31-46 does. The Protestant practice of proof-texting the Bible (as you define it) creates many misinterpretations. The Scritures must be read holistically – one has to read everything written on any subject, in context; i.e., within the heart of the teaching Church Christ founded for the salvation of the world – to arrive at a correct understanding.

Compare, for example:

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.”

“Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who DOES the will of my Father. . .”

The will of the Father as stated in the Scriptures is that we keep the commandments!

I have repeatedly pointed out that you do not know – and cannot know – what the “immutable, inerrant word of God” is, except by having recourse to the definition of the Catholic Church. You ignore my posts where I have asked, ‘What good is an “inerrant” book without an inerrant teacher?’ And I pointed out that without an “inerrant collector” of the scriptures, you can have no assurance that your collection of ‘scriptures’ is inerrant!

Take off your blinders and read the Logic and Foundations of Protestantism by former Protestant Brian Harrison at www.chnetwork.org.

We could shoot Bible verses at each other reminiscent of the gunfight at the OK Corral, but you will never be convinced because you refuse to examine the truth. Your anti-Catholic prism is permanently installed. You are like those of whom Abraham said, “. . . they will not be persuaded even if someone should rise from the dead” (Luke 16:31 paraphrased).

May the shackles fall from your eyes.

JMJ Jay

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Pax:

What you have said is sad but true and can be said of many of our non-catholic christians as well. I would note, however, that the statistics in this area have a few details worth examining. The statistics for those that are “serious” about their faith regardless of their identifiable denomination are much better. Other factors exist also. There is a real question as to how well informed many of these voters are. I’m not sure why so many are asleep at the switch but it is disheartening.

I have said this before and I’ll say it again. If every eligible Catholic and non-Catholic Christian in this country voted with an informed Christian conscience we would over turn abortion almost over night. There are many other social ills that could also be over come if people merely lived out what they profess to believe.

Amen, Pax. People in the church are taught to let your conscience be you guide. Well, You can see the results when your conscience is not guided by the Holy Spirit. Your own conscience can be filled with many poor decisions.

 

[Pax]

SPOKENWORD:

Amen, Pax. People in the church are taught to let your conscience be you guide. Well, You can see the results when your conscience is not guided by the Holy Spirit. Your own conscience can be filled with many poor decisions.

There is that old saying, “if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, then it’s duck.”

Could what we are talking about apply to the discussion on this thread that “faith without works is dead.?”

 

[Katholikos]

SPOKENWORD:

Ill speak for myself. I honestly dont know which catholics are not geting to heaven,but I do believe many wont. Just look at the election results to see what percentage of catholics followed the teachings of Jesus Christ. Many are called but few are chosen. Im going to leave the judging up to our Lord to see which get in and which do not. I do not have the gift of reading hearts.

Perhaps you are not aware that many churches who purport to be Christian support abortion and work to ensure that abortion remains an option in these United States. Among them are certain Lutheran and Presbyterian groups and all Episcopalians. There’s a long list of “Christian” churches whose OFFICIAL doctrine is pro-death for the unborn. Even the Mormon church advocates abortion in some cases.

The Catholic Church has always been, is now, and ever will be, consistently and militantly pro-life.

What individual Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. believe and do is beside the point. Churches are responsible only for what they teach, not what dissenters believe.

JMJ Jay

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Katholikos:

Perhaps you are not aware that many churches who purport to be Christian support abortion and work to ensure that abortion remains an option in these United States. Among them are certain Lutheran and Presbyterian groups and all Episcopalians. There’s a long list of “Christian” churches whose OFFICIAL doctrine is pro-death for the unborn. Even the Mormon church advocates abortion in some cases.

The Catholic Church has always been, is now, and ever will be, consistently and militantly pro-life.

What individual Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. believe and do is beside the point. Churches are responsible only for what they teach, not what dissenters believe.

JMJ Jay

Jay, True,but there are time when there are grey areas and rather than ruffle the feathers of believers,they say to let our consciences decide, which in my oppinion can be in error. Truth will pervail. Lets stop compromising. Say yes when you mean yes, and no when you say no.

 

[ncgolf]

There are only 2 possibilites with the Eucharist:

1. The Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ as the Catholic Church teaches. The Church does not mince words as to what the Eucharist is. That small, insignificant wafer of bread becomes Christ himself. We consume that life just as Christ states in John’s Bread of Life discourse or…
2. It is not true and if not true then we as Catholics would be guilty of some terrible pagan ritual of sacrifice.

Since Christ left the Earth, the Church has had the Eucharist and so far Christ’s church has survived and thrived even with the sin of its followers. The survival of the Church for 2 millenia gives some circumstantial evidence that #2 is not taking place. Other cultures with sacrifice have long since been exterminated.

That said is either the Catholic Church is the true church or it is false and therefore something that leads people away from Christ. The Eucharist is the life of the Church, without the Eucharist we would be just like any other church. The Eucharist is the hinge on which the Catholic faith revolves.

 

[WBB]

SPOKENWORD:

Jay, True,but there are time when there are grey areas and rather than ruffle the feathers of believers,they say to let our consciences decide, which in my oppinion can be in error. Truth will pervail. Lets stop compromising. Say yes when you mean yes, and no when you say no.

You obviously don’t know what “let our consciences decide” means. It means that you have to inform that conscience with the Truth before you make a decision. You have to know what God’s will is to make an informed conscientious decision, so to say that Catholics are told to go willy-nilly and do what they want because their conscience says it is ok is just nonsense. Furthermore, if I am not mistaken, the majority of Catholics voted for George Bush in the election. And who are you to say not many Catholics are going to heaven? I thank the Lord every day that he is in control and not some bible thumping person condemning every soul for what he feels is wrong.