I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

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Pax:
cont. from prior post

It is the church “that is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” It is the Church that wrote down the New Testament, guarded it, protected it from error and corruption, handed it down through the ages, and properly interpreted it for the faithful. The more than two thousand years of Christian witness and testimony of the Catholic Church is more reliable than any other interpreter of scripture.

It is as Paul points out in Eph 3:10, “through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.” Notice Paul never says that it is through scripture alone and individual interpretation. In fact Peter tells us, " First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,"[see 2 Peter 1:20]

Peter even goes on to say that, “So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. **There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.”**Peter 3:15-16] Paul even instructs Timothy to tell certain individuals at Ephesus not to teach because they were teaching false doctrines. In Eph 4:14 Paul warns the believers, " so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles." Moreover, in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 Paul says, “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.”

If you don’t believe what the historical church has always taught you have fallen into one of the above traps. I find Peter’s warnings especially pertinent. He warns us that Paul’s teaching can be difficult to understand and that the ignorant and unstable twist it and the rest of scripture to their own destruction. Peter does not say that the Church is ignorant or unstable. The church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth. But the ignorant and unstable don’t think they need to listen to Peter, James, Paul, any of the other apostles, or the church. They don’t know that they are ignorant but they are. They think they can do it on their own and that they know better.

Martin Luther thought he knew better and look what happened. He even admitted later that his teaching of scripture alone, “produced as many interpretations as there are heads.” Well, here we are in 2004 and there are literally thousands of Protestant denominations and the number is growing larger all the time. In the midst of all of this, the Catholic Church still prevails and has remained faithful to the gospel and unwavering in its teachings since the day of Pentecost.

Ozzie, one last thing. If you really want to know if Jesus is present in the Eucharist study John 6, study the last supper, study 1 Corinthians 10 and 11, and then get a book like The Lambs Supper written by Scott Hahn. Beyond that there is a wealth of other Catholic materials that will take you deeper into this truth. Once you’ve done this study, pray for God’s grace to see the truth. He will not disappoint you, and you will come to the realization that He wants to give you more than you ever thought or imagined.
Nice Job Pax, it is great to see someone with such great Faith. I posted another thread regarding non-denominational Christians. I hope you will find time to read it and maybe help me on that one.
Thanks
Randy
randell.kilbreath@gm.com
 
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JesusFreak16:
I am Protestant. How many of you already “know” that I will not be going to heaven, even though you are not omni-present and you cannot see my heart?
I hope none, but there are bound to be some… I want an honest answer, even though I know I am not going to hell. “How do I know I am not?” do you ask? Well, I do not see the need to explain to you… If you would like me to, please feel free to ask me.
I am not afraid. You are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and you do not want to hurt me, you want the best for me. I have every confidence in you.

God’s Peace~ Lisa
 
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Katholikos:
I have repeatedly pointed out that you do not know – and cannot know – what the “immutable, inerrant word of God” is, except by having recourse to the definition of the Catholic Church. You ignore my posts where I have asked, ‘What good is an “inerrant” book without an inerrant teacher?’ And I pointed out that without an “inerrant collector” of the scriptures, you can have no assurance that your collection of ‘scriptures’ is inerrant!

Take off your blinders and read the Logic and Foundations of Protestantism by former Protestant Brian Harrison at www.chnetwork.org.

We could shoot Bible verses at each other reminiscent of the gunfight at the OK Corral, but you will never be convinced because you refuse to examine the truth. Your anti-Catholic prism is permanently installed. You are like those of whom Abraham said, “. . . they will not be persuaded even if someone should rise from the dead” (Luke 16:31 paraphrased).

May the shackles fall from your eyes.

JMJ Jay
Amen to you!

This is the entire basis for the discussions above of specific interpretations we have all been debating here.

Some are trying to compare their personal interpretations–or those promulgated by the Protestant community for the past few hundred years–with the authority granted to the Catholic Church to safeguard the Scriptures and their meaning for the past 2000 years.

Non-Catholic Christians will accept our Bible as their authority but disregard the authority that gave them those books!

The Non-Catholics even disregard the interpretations put forth by the earliest Christians–ones who where taught by the Apostles!
Talk about arrogance! Your 21st century understanding of Jesus’ Word is more correct than that of those who were taught by the Apostles!

This is nonsense and completely contradictory to the contents of Scripture. Yet those Non-Catholics involved in this forum will again ignore this major “problem.”

Just as they ignore all of the directives contained in Scripture for the sake of the few verses they deem most important.

I have watched as specific people proof text Paul for the sake of the rest of Scripture. Paul’s letters do stress the importance of faith but they are not the final say regarding all of Scripture.

2 Peter 3:15:
“…So also our brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given to him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them HARD TO UNDERSTAND, which the ignorant and unstable TWIST to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.”

Paul’s comments about faith need to be taken as an integral part of the whole of Scripture–NT & OT. Why do you disregard James’ stress on works or the directive to keep the God’s commandments (among others) to sit back and feel secure that you are saved by your “faith alone”? I propose the answer is pride.

Many here have provided ample evidence from Scripture, the early Christians and Jesus’ Catholic Church to show you the limitedness of your individual interpretations of the Word of Our Lord. At this point if you still refuse to open your heart to what has been offered to you no further discussion is even required.

THIS STATEMENT IS AS CLEAR AS ONE CAN BE:
2 Peter 1:20 (RSV)
“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.”

Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KL Stevens
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Jay, True,but there are time when there are grey areas and rather than ruffle the feathers of believers,they say to let our consciences decide, which in my oppinion can be in error. Truth will pervail. Lets stop compromising. Say yes when you mean yes, and no when you say no. :confused:
Say what? Who is “they”?

The Catholic Church does not merely say “let your conscience decide” – it teaches unequivocally that all life is to be respected from conception to natural death and that to deliberately terminate a life is murder, pure and simple. Its stand against abortion and embryonic experimentation are some of the best-known facts about the Catholic Church.

I recommend Aborting America and The Hand of God by former atheist and abortionist turned Catholic, Bernard Nathanson, M.D. He lists the many “Christian” churches that are pro-abortion in Aborting America. Now out of print, but it can be found in some bookstores.

I think we’re getting off the topic of this thread (if it has one!).

JMJ Jay
 
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WBB:
You obviously don’t know what “let our consciences decide” means. It means that you have to inform that conscience with the Truth before you make a decision. You have to know what God’s will is to make an informed conscientious decision, so to say that Catholics are told to go willy-nilly and do what they want because their conscience says it is ok is just nonsense. Furthermore, if I am not mistaken, the majority of Catholics voted for George Bush in the election. And who are you to say not many Catholics are going to heaven? I thank the Lord every day that he is in control and not some bible thumping person condemning every soul for what he feels is wrong.
I personally know what; Let your conscience decide means,the problem is many dont.Yes ,Jesus came to save all but the Truth is not all are getting in.That applys to ever denomination out there. I appoligize to you for offending you,that was not my intent. 😦
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Jay, True,but there are time when there are grey areas and rather than ruffle the feathers of believers,they say to let our consciences decide, which in my oppinion can be in error. Truth will pervail. Lets stop compromising. Say yes when you mean yes, and no when you say no. :confused:
It always amazes me when non-Catholics tell us Catholics what our Lord’s Church teaches!

Every Protestant I know claims that interpretation of Scripture is up to one’s own conscience based on their interpretation of Scripture as based on Scripture–so what’s your point here?

Regarding your foundation of Faith–Scripture–you “let [y]our consciences decide, which in my opinion can be in error.”

You find me where in Scripture it says clearly that we all must be pro-life? It doesn’t–this is a matter of Tradition! Our Catholic Tradition! See Mark Shea’s By What Authority pp. 93-100.

Research the history of the Birth Control movement–very much a pro-life issue. Many birth control pills do not prevent conception but rather cause abortions of an embryo. Which part of the Bible and what other Christian Churches are on the record saying this form of Birth Control is wrong? None but the Catholic Church. Now how many Christian consciences of those who contend they are totally saved partake in this evil?? We could go on for days here but I only used this as a point of reference for how one could think we have it so wrong? Our teachings are so ambiguous! Our Church has said no–and stands all alone—in still saying no on this one!
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Amen, Pax. People in the church are taught to let your conscience be you guide. Well, You can see the results when your conscience is not guided by the Holy Spirit. Your own conscience can be filled with many poor decisions. :eek:
Is the Holy Spirit guiding the consciences of all those “Christians” who support the killing of the unborn (abortion) and the elderly (euthanasia)? Poor maligned Holy Spirit!

Some Lutheran organizations go to far as to offer abortion “benefits” for all employees through their “health insurance” programs! Are they guided by the Holy Spirit?

A Catholic’s conscience must be formed in accordance with the teaching of the Church – the Magisterium.

See the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

You only think you know what the Catholic Church teaches, but obviously you do not.

JMJ Jay
 
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SPOKENWORD:
I personally know what; Let your conscience decide means,the problem is many dont.Yes ,Jesus came to save all but the Truth is not all are getting in.That applys to ever denomination out there. I appoligize to you for offending you,that was not my intent. 😦
No, you didn’t offend me. (That is the problem with the internet…you can never tell the tone a person is using.) I just think it is dangerous to assume who is and who is not going to heaven. I leave that up to God.
 
Our conscience can only be a reliable guide when it’s been properly formed.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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KLStevens:
It always amazes me when non-Catholics tell us Catholics what our Lord’s Church teaches!

Every Protestant I know claims that interpretation of Scripture is up to one’s own conscience based on their interpretation of Scripture as based on Scripture–so what’s your point here?

Regarding your foundation of Faith–Scripture–you “let [y]our consciences decide, which in my opinion can be in error.”

You find me where in Scripture it says clearly that we all must be pro-life? It doesn’t–this is a matter of Tradition! Our Catholic Tradition! See Mark Shea’s By What Authority pp. 93-100.

Research the history of the Birth Control movement–very much a pro-life issue. Many birth control pills do not prevent conception but rather cause abortions of an embryo. Which part of the Bible and what other Christian Churches are on the record saying this form of Birth Control is wrong? None but the Catholic Church. Now how many Christian consciences of those who contend they are totally saved partake in this evil?? We could go on for days here but I only used this as a point of reference for how one could think we have it so wrong? Our teachings are so ambiguous! Our Church has said no–and stands all alone—in still saying no on this one!
Thank you for this post!

Mark Shea’s book is excellent in explaining Tradition, which in my opinion is the most misunderstood teaching of the Catholic Church.
 
As regards getting into Heaven by affirming Faith in Christ, he Himself said,
MT19:17 Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you ask me about what is good? There is one alone who is good. But if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.’

Belief in Christ involves not just a one-time statement, but a life of following his teachings. He said that clearly above.
Faith in him (love of Him) makes us also keep his commandments (his father’s) but Jesus requires us, in Mt 19:17 above, to keep the commandments, not just say I believe in you and then do our own will. “Once saved, always saved” asks too much of God. It doesn’t say “thy will be done”, but rather now that I have professed faith in you I can do my own will and you will save me. Maybe it is a misunderstood statement though. Like the Protestant misunderstanding of Catholics reverently touching or praying before statues as idol worship.
I could go on for hours but this statement of Christ bears meditation. Faith alone is opening the door but there is still a long journey to Heaven.
 
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Cubby:
God’s peace and love to you all. And BTW Lisa, I’m a man!
I had to laugh when Lisa couldn’t figure out if you were male or female. Yeah, maybe you do need to change your code name. No offense, but l always get feeling I’m communicating to a child.
How many of you already “know” that us Catholics will not be going to heaven?
I hope you didn’t think that all this dialogue was for the purpose of determining who was going to Hell or Heaven. That’s the job of NONE of us. "The Lord knows those who are His (2 Tim. 2:19).

The discussions here were for determining objective truths regarding salvation/justification, not to hurl subjective judgments on individual people. We can discuss, and should discuss, doctrinal errors and doctrinal truths as taught by one’s religious affiliation, as well as challenge the personal beliefs of individuals as they express them, based on the objective, written Word of God; but to cast a blanket of condemnation on “Catholics” or “Protestants,” corporately, is the height of arrogance.

Can a true believer be absolutely assured that he/she possesses in this present life time eternal life? That God, through Christ, and personal faith in Him alone has forever reconciled the believer to Himself because of His perfect and complete substitutional/sacrificial work on the cross in respect to their sins and those of the whole world; that God has forever redeemed the believer by His blood; forever “washed”, “sanctified” and “justified” him (1 Cor. 6:11)? I contend, YES!!! - most definitely!!! - based on the message of the cross (preached before the church at Rome ever existed), and the doctrines regarding Christ which are clearly revealed in the N.T. Scriptures.

However, I have condemned no one on this message board. I have only challenged the teachings that come out of Rome, whether you think I have understood them or not… But I may indeed understand them better than you would want to admit.

I guess, *“Last Page,” *means “The End,” no?
 
Ozzie -

No offense on the “Cubby-slam”, but that nickname is hard to shake.

Your quote:
I hope you didn’t think that all this dialogue was for the purpose of determining who was going to Hell or Heaven. That’s the job of NONE of us. "The Lord knows those who are His (2 Tim. 2:19).

This is something that I agree with. I was simply restating the question Lisa initially posed, with a twist. Does anybody remember the question that started this thread?

Well everyone, all roads lead to Rome…

Happy Birthday Katholicos!!!
I’ve enjoyed reading your posts. :clapping:

Peace.
 
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JesusFreak16:
Ozzie, I know your name is familiar to me, but I don’t remember anything about you. Anyway, YOU ROCK. I agree with everything you have said here.
Lisa, I feel your youth!! All who rest by faith in Christ’s finished work on the cross on their behalf “rock” because He is “THE ROCK” (Matt. 7:24-25; Matt. 16:18; Rom. 9:33; 1 Cor. 10:4; 1 Pet. 2:8). Blessings, little sis.
 
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Ozzie:
Can a true believer be absolutely assured that he/she possesses in this present life time eternal life? That God, through Christ, and personal faith in Him alone has forever reconciled the believer to Himself because of His perfect and complete substitutional/sacrificial work on the cross in respect to their sins and those of the whole world; that God has forever redeemed the believer by His blood; forever “washed”, “sanctified” and “justified” him (1 Cor. 6:11)? I contend, YES!!! - most definitely!!! - based on the message of the cross (preached before the church at Rome ever existed), and the doctrines regarding Christ which are clearly revealed in the N.T. Scriptures.

However, I have condemned no one on this message board. I have only challenged the teachings that come out of Rome, whether you think I have understood them or not… But I may indeed understand them better than you would want to admit.
Questions:

If the doctrines regarding Christ are “clearly revealed in the NT Scriptures,” why are there thousands of different Protestant interpretations of them?

Why did no one before Martin Luther ever believe in your “Once Saved, Always Saved” doctrine? It was unknown in the annals of Christianity before the 16th century. Luther first declared it. Then John Calvin popularized it, calling it Preservation of the Saints. Even today, it is believed by only a few Christians, mostly by some Presbyterians and Baptists.

The message of the cross was first preached in Jerusalem by Peter, the leader of the Catholic Church, and by the other Apostles. Surely you have read Acts, though I doubt that you understood that you were reading the first history of the Catholic Church ever written. The NT is the record of the first 100 years or so in the spiritual life of the New Israel, the newborn Catholic Church (Gal 6:16, Rm 11:26, James 1:1). It is not an instruction book in the Christian religion, as you and other Protestants have tried to make it.

Christ called it simply His Church (Mt 16:18-19). The name “Catholic Church” appears in a letter from St. Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans written in 107 A.D., less than 10 years or so after the death of his teacher, St. John the Apostle, author of the Gospel of John.

By challenging the teachings of the Church, you are attempting to substitute your own doctrines for the teaching of the Apostles, whose teacher was Christ. So in reality, you’re challenging the teachings of Christ.

You must get over this notion that the Church’s doctrines are just another interpretation of the New Testament, as are your own beliefs. Not so. The Church produced the NT, not vice versa. The Church was the Agent of the Holy Spirit in writing, selecting, collecting, naming, and canonizing the NT and naming and canonizing the OT inherited from Jesus and the Apostles. She was by then nearly 400 years old.

So we have a choice between your 21st century biblical interpretations or the teaching of the Apostles. I’ll put my $ on the Apostles. Thanks anyway

JMJ Jay
 
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Katholikos:
Questions:If the doctrines regarding Christ are “clearly revealed in the NT Scriptures,” why are there thousands of different Protestant interpretations of them?
You guys always answer in this manner. Though there are thousands of “Protestant” churches there are not “thousands” of interpretations regarding Christ and salvation taught amongst them. Thousands teach the same regarding salvation: by grace through faith alone. I don’t think you know what most “Protestant” churches teach, anyway, since you previously accused all of telling their members that once saved they can go out and live a sin-filled life. And you’ve never recanted from that statement.
Why did no one before Martin Luther ever believe in your “Once Saved, Always Saved” doctrine? It was unknown in the annals of Christianity before the 16th century. Luther first declared it.
Strange statement indeed since Christ Himself taught that all who believe in Him HAVE eternal life. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that God gives any other life to the BELIEVER other than “eternal” life. And Paul explicitly taught that by grace through faith one is SAVED (I’ve already refuted the idea of past, present and future tense of “saved”), and HAS BEEN JUSTIFIED by faith. Peter states that the believer has been REDEEMED by His blood. All this was taught and written within the first century. I don’t deny that the Roman church, corporately, rejects this, and various “Protestant” churches as well, but thousands do not and are in agreement.
The message of the cross was first preached in Jerusalem by Peter, the leader of the Catholic Church, and by the other Apostles.
Can you show me one place in the book of Acts where the other Apostles call Peter, “our leader?” Humm, based on this teaching, then Paul was the first “Protestant,” since He did not consider himself, or his ministry, subordinate to Peter or any of the other Apostles.
Surely you have read Acts, though I doubt that you understood that you were reading the first history of the Catholic Church ever written. The NT is the record of the first 100 years or so in the spiritual life of the New Israel
The Book of Acts is an historical account of Christ “building” His *“universal” *Church, being built upon the foundation of the Apostles, He Himself being the corner stone. There are no Popes or Prelates mentioned there. Can you show me where, in Acts, the Church is called the “new Israel?”
The Church produced the NT, not vice versa
The N.T., and all Scripture is divine in origin, not ecclesiastical (2 Tim. 3:16). The Greek word “inspired” there is theopheustos, literally meaning “God-breathed.” And the Book of Acts is not about the acts of the Apostles, but the acts of the Holy Spirit through the Apostles. Just as it is Christ who is “building” His Church, even to this very day. And will continue until the Rapture of it.
 
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Ozzie:
Can you show me one place in the book of Acts where the other Apostles call Peter, “our leader?” Humm, based on this teaching, then Paul was the first “Protestant,” since He did not consider himself, or his ministry, subordinate to Peter or any of the other Apostles.
Why would they need to write that? At the time of the New Testament it was understood. The apostles had no idea of the division that would occur in the future which would make it necessary to write it down.
 
Ozzie,

Something that might help you understand and appreciate Catholic teaching on justification/salvation is the biblical teachings on “covenants.” Obviously, a post or even a series of posts will not cover this topic but try understanding your relationship with the Lord from this point of view. You will notice that all biblical convenants are oaths between God and His people. They always involve God and His people and they are never just God or just His people.

Compare the marriage covenant with the NT covenant. Scripture mentions many times that the NT covenant is like marriage in many ways. In the marriage covenant there is a requirement of fidelity and that the partners become “one flesh.” Many things can happen between spouses that can wreck the covenant. Does this carry over into the NT covenant? By all means!! Paul points this out in 1 Timothy 1:18-20 when he encourages Timothy to fight the good fight saying, "This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith, among them Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme."

Notice that these two individuals and others have made a shipwreck of their faith. The promise of salvation will not be theirs unless they repent.

It is so clear and obvious in scripture, Ozzie, that your doctrinal position is untenable. You rely on isolating certain verses written by Paul to make your erroneous case. In isolating these verses you destroy the context of Paul’s writings themselves as well as the context of the rest of scripture. We have shown this to you over and over again. Traditions run very deep within our hearts and sometimes they are traditions of men. Your doctrinal tradition has not stood the test of scriptural scrutiny. We are not saved by faith alone and there is absolutely no case to be made for the belief that “once we are saved we are always saved.” Pray on what has been presented to you. You have been given the truth. Scripture tells no lies.
 
Lisa,

Being RC for 20 years, then ex- roman catholic for 20 some years now, I have this advice for you. Stay where you are! If you agree with OZZIE on all these issues, then it sounds like you are in a good place. OZZIE is right on with all his posts I have read. Sorry about not contributing sooner, but I was answering another thread. Read Galatians, it describes RC’s to an eeeeerie T. Even adding only .000000000000000001% of your works to grace, nullifies grace. The RC religion is very dangerous, don’t be fooled or bewitched like the Galatians were. Pray for them intensely, because the powerful spirit of legalism has them in bondage to the law.

As for these 30,000 protestant denominations that are being proclaimed by the RC parrots. Read( David A. Barrett’s world christian encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions in the Modern world A.D. 1900-2000) which is where RC apologists got there figures erroneously, or go to www.NTRMin.org
under catholcism category.

Lisa,ozzie,spokenword,grace and peace to you from our Lord!

In love ex-RC Dan!!!

P.S. I’m up here in RC country( Buffalo N.Y.) where almost every RC I know voted for Kerry. Whether you like it or not, THAT SPEAKS VOLUMES.
 
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exrc:
Lisa,

Being RC for 20 years, then ex- roman catholic for 20 some years now, I have this advice for you. Stay where you are! If you agree with OZZIE on all these issues, then it sounds like you are in a good place. OZZIE is right on with all his posts I have read. Sorry about not contributing sooner, but I was answering another thread. Read Galatians, it describes RC’s to an eeeeerie T. Even adding only .000000000000000001% of your works to grace, nullifies grace. The RC religion is very dangerous, don’t be fooled or bewitched like the Galatians were. Pray for them intensely, because the powerful spirit of legalism has them in bondage to the law.

As for these 30,000 protestant denominations that are being proclaimed by the RC parrots. Read( David A. Barrett’s world christian encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions in the Modern world A.D. 1900-2000) which is where RC apologists got there figures erroneously, or go to www.NTRMin.org
under catholcism category.

Lisa,ozzie,spokenword,grace and peace to you from our Lord!

In love ex-RC Dan!!!

P.S. I’m up here in RC country( Buffalo N.Y.) where almost every RC I know voted for Kerry. Whether you like it or not, THAT SPEAKS VOLUMES.
Thanks RC for the blessing. Personally I love the book of ephesians. It shows exactly how we are to live as christians.Gods Words are full of wisdom and understanding. 👍
 
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