I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

Your hate and resentment control your thinking. You have no objectivity. Set your personal experience completely aside. For every experience you have that seems to prove something to you, there is someone else with a life experience that disproves your theory. No one ever appreciates what it means to be a Catholic unless they have raised the white flag in the fortress of their rebel heart and conceded everything to the Lord. Although I have always been deeply rooted as a Catholic, I still held back a few things. I had not opened every door door and window to God. Finally, when I raised the white flag of surrender my faith and love of God flourished and took on greater meaning, beauty, and fulfillment. We sometimes refer to this as a second conversion and it is a beautiful and powerful experience.

You, exrc, never experienced this in your youth, and you blame the Church. As a Catholic who has experienced it and knows the truth, I know where the responsibility resides for my former state. It is not because of the Church. It was entirely due to my pride and resistance to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

This type of situation exists in every faith community regardless of denomination. You can blame a church, your parents, a pastor, a priest, or whomever for all kinds of things, when in truth the problem is inside of each of us. Pride and selfishness were my biggest hindrances to being alive in Christ. This is truly something that I can confidently claim to know “by personal experience.”

The outcome of all of this has been a stronger faith and desire to love and serve the Lord. And yes, I hunger and thirst for the Lord in the Eucharist. I find great solace in Eucharistic Adoration and I thank Jesus daily for calling me to visit Him in the Blessed Sacrament. The promptings of the Holy Spirit are stronger in me than I could have ever imagined. I pray daily for an end to my pride and my own blindness before the Lord. And yes, I read scripture everyday because I love the Holy Word of God. And I defend the Catholic faith vigorously and will give no quarter to any who attack Christ’s Church which is His body.

Do I do this of my own accord? Am I somehow earning my way to heaven? Of course not! Whatever progress that has been made in my spiritual life is by the grace of God. My confidence in the reality of the Eucharist is made possible by the grace of God. I take no credit nor do I attempt to measure myself as having accomplished anything because it is God working in me. I pray everyday that the Lord will lift me and carry me because without him I am nothing.

Faith and works cannot be separated…they both come to us by way of God’s grace. To deny the salvific relationship of faith and works, is to deny the clear teachings of scripture[James 2:14-26] and effectively “nullifies grace.”

.

 

[Pax]

The power of God’s grace and the inseparable nature of faith and works are found virtually everywhere in the New Testament. In the Book of Hebrews special attention is paid to this truth. The stage is set in Hebrews 10:35-39 where it says, “Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised. “For yet a little while, and the coming one shall come and shall not tarry; but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their souls.”

Notice that we must not throw away our confidence, we have need for endurance, we must do the will of God, we must live by faith, and we must not shrink back or we will be destroyed and we will not keep our souls. These are important words and the context of salvation is clear. Both “faith alone” and “once saved always saved” already fail the criteria therein.

From that setting we move into Hebrews chapter eleven where we learn what faith is, and how we and the people of the OT receive divine approval through/by faith. In Hebrews chapter eleven there are over nineteen references to OT individuals that begin with the words “by faith.” A few examples from this list of references should help make the point about “living by faith” and how each of these references involves works as an integral part.

Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he received approval as righteous, God bearing witness by accepting his gifts; he died, but through his faith he is still speaking.

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, took heed and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; by this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness which comes by faith.

Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was ready to offer up his only son, of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your descendants be named.”

Obviously, these three examples and all of the nineteen references of individuals living by faith involved them doing something. What would have happened in each of the above cases if Abel, Noah, and Abraham had merely believed God but did nothing? If Abel had offered no sacrifice to God, he would not have been living by faith and his faith would have been dead. If Noah had believed God that there would be a flood but refused to build the Ark, then his faith would have been to no avail and he would not have pleased God. Noah would have been swept away with all of the other sinners. And if Abraham had not been willing by faith to sacrifice Isaac, then his faith would have been nullified because it would have had no meaning or substance.

The plentiful examples in the book of Hebrews show that those that “lived by faith”* were saved with us by the perfect work of Jesus on the Cross.

A scriptural word search of the term “by faith” following Chapter eleven in the book of Hebrews reveals that the only time it occurs again is in James 2:24 where we read “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” This is significant and should finally lay to rest the argument that we are saved by “faith alone.” Coordinate all of this with all of the other scriptural references along with the logic presented in this thread and the case is absolutely overwhelming.*

 

[WBB]

oat soda:

i would say that you do this. Isn’t believing a work? Doesn’t it require something for us do to be saved? According to your logic, anything that is done to merit heaven is a work. By saying and believing that “Jesus is our personal Lord and Savior” is the trick to get into heaven; you implicitly acknowledge that our salvation is based on works because unless you did this action or thought, you are doomed.

For your logic to be consistent, you would have to say that there is absolutely nothing we can do to merit heaven, including saying and believing that we accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior. We are saved regardless of what we do, say, or believe. In which case, why did God reveal himself fully through his Word? THIS IS CONSISTENT WITH YOUR LOGIC. You are the one who arbitrarily decides what works are and what are not.

The bottom line is Protestantism contradicts itself and I can’t believe how many people are duped into it.

You are correct. It is salvation by intellectual works. Protestants never think about this because they are so busy criticizing Catholics who accept God’s free gift of grace and praise Him by doing His work in the world. The problem protestants have is that they try to separate the idea of faith and works when you can’t, no matter how hard you try. Plain and simple, a person who has faith is responding to God’s free gift of salvation by doing God’s work. I don’t know why you guys are still discussing this with a person who is obviously NOT doing the work of God in his condemnation of people who are. After all, since Jesus did not come into the world to condemn it but that it may have life and have it abundantly, who is Ozzie to condemn anything?

 

[MariaG]

posted by WBB

I don’t know why you guys are still discussing this with a person who is obviously NOT doing the work of God in his condemnation of people who are.

IF what Ozzie says were true, he would indeed need to save us from the fires of Hell. I cannot condemn someone who is, misguidedly, trying to show us the truth. And Ozzie is not the only audience.

 

[WBB]

MariaG:

IF what Ozzie says were true, he would indeed need to save us from the fires of Hell. I cannot condemn someone who is, misguidedly, trying to show us the truth. And Ozzie is not the only audience.

But I didn’t condemn anyone. I am just saying that he is not listening to reason, so as St. Paul says, quit spinning your wheels.

 

[MariaG]

I accept your explanation that you did not mean to condemn anyone. But I know that if it were me you were talking about, I certainly would have felt condemnation from you.

discussing this with a person who is **obviously NOT doing the work of God **in his condemnation of people who are

It is “obvious” only to those who have the fullness of truth. Only God can judge the heart, but I would assume that anyone would not spend the number of hours Ozzie has for self gratification getting off on tweaking the Catholics. I have to assume that Ozzie 100% believes what he posts, and is just trying to “spread the good news”. And just like a child who tries to serve mom breakfast in bed but ends up making a bigger mess to clean up, the heart is in the right place.

And even if Ozzie is not sincere, there still is the unseen audience. I would not choose to shake the dust from my feet and walk away from those who are unheard from. And there may be many more who never post but need to have the truth revealed to them by the Holy Spirit through this forum.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[WBB]

MariaG:

I accept your explanation that you did not mean to condemn anyone. But I know that if it were me you were talking about, I certainly would have felt condemnation from you.

It is “obvious” only to those who have the fullness of truth. Only God can judge the heart, but I would assume that anyone would not spend the number of hours Ozzie has for self gratification getting off on tweaking the Catholics. I have to assume that Ozzie 100% believes what he posts, and is just trying to “spread the good news”. And just like a child who tries to serve mom breakfast in bed but ends up making a bigger mess to clean up, the heart is in the right place.

And even if Ozzie is not sincere, there still is the unseen audience. I would not choose to shake the dust from my feet and walk away from those who are unheard from. And there may be many more who never post but need to have the truth revealed to them by the Holy Spirit through this forum.

God Bless,
Maria

You are absolutely right! Oh my goodness, that was not my intention at all. I am sorry, Oz. And thanks Maria pointing out my arrogance. I will try to be more charitable in the future.

Brian

 

[Katholikos]

Ozzie:

“Katholikos Jay” states in a previous post (#505) that all must in order to be saved (1) accept Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior" (which he clairifies as taking “Mass”), ."

So lets recap, in order to get saved, be saved, and remain saved, one must participate in a legitimately recognized “Mass,” keep all the specified commands Jesus lists, and sell all his possessions to the poor. Now I ask both of you, have you done all these things? And do you continue to do them to this very day? For you must endure doing thee things even to the end.

Red added. Well, Ozzie, you’re only partially right. And, you’re misquoting me. I’m sorry that you misunderstand. You know so little about Catholicism that it’s easy for you to get confused. You wasted a great deal of time and effort arguing against a point I didn’t make – called a “straw man” in logic.

Nobody “takes” Mass . Hang around Catholic Answers, and we’ll do our best to educate you.

Not everyone is called upon to sell all his possessions. This is one of the “evangelical counsels” – the path to perfection. The grace for it is given to a few. Religious (monks, brothers, nuns), some clergy and some lay people practice all of the evanglical counsels (poverty, chastity, obedience). But all of us are required to do the good works specified throughout the NT. Works do not save us, but we are judged according to our DEEDS, not just according to our beliefs, as the NT makes clear. We have to be “doers” of the Word, not just “hearers” (James 1:22-25).

Again, the NT is not an instruction book in Christianity. You must see it for what it is – a record of the spiritual life of the newborn Catholic Church during the first 100 years or so of its existence – not for what you want it to be, before you can begin to understand it.

Think about it. The NT has none of the characteristics of a textbook. It is not a continuous book, with a beginning, middle, and a conclusion. The letters answer questions and address problems that had arisen in the local, regional churches that were founded and instructed orally by the Apostles. Read the introductions for each ‘book.’ Look at how the letters are arranged (in order of length, not in date order). The NT belongs to the Church. Her fingerprints are all over it. To understand it, you have to think with the mind of the Church.

JMJ Jay

 

[Ozzie]

Pax:

you have done so by making up a “non-existent context” to suit your doctrinal predispositions.

This is how you answered but you never demonstrated how what I presented was a “non-existent” context. You simply stated it.

As far as your offer is concerned I’m willing to take you up on it with two conditions. We exchange email files. You take my file of verses refuting OSAS and I’ll take your file on Covenants. Secondly, we both agree to honestly read and study what each has to offer. If that works for you then it’s a go!

The problem is you gave me a sample of your list in previous posts which some I demonstrated how you ripped them out of their intended context, and I am afraid your full list can be nothing more than “more of the same.” And I am certain you would totally discount what I would send regarding the eight, literal, Biblical covenants and say they simply “suit your doctrinal predisposition.”

 

[Ozzie]

Katholikos:

And, you’re misquoting me.

How did I misquote you? I, in fact, quoted you.

Nobody “takes” Mass"

Semantics, minor point of no consequence.

Works do not save us, but we are judged according to our DEEDS, not just according to our beliefs, as the NT makes clear.

But not FOR salvation, for rewards, yes. But you grossly error in thinking a man is not judged just according to his beliefs. It’s what the whole gospel mesage is about: “For God did not sent the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him. He who BELIEVES in Him is not judged; he who DOES NOT BELIEVE is judged already, BECAUSE he has NOT BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God”

The whole matter of salvation is based strictly on personal belief. It is the BELIEVER who is to be the doer of the Word. But he is a doer of the Word because he has believed unto eternal salvation. It’s quite simple, Jay. Believe it.

 

[Ozzie]

oat soda:

i would say that you do this. Isn’t believing a work? Doesn’t it require something for us do to be saved? According to your logic, anything that is done to merit heaven is a work. One cannot “merit” Heaven or salvation, period. In fact, the word is not even in the N.T. Is believing considered a “work?” Not according to God’s Word: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works…(Eph. 2:8-9). Obviously God does not consider faith a “work,” otherwise He wouldn’t have said “through faith…not as a result of works.” Faith is a personal response to the message concerning Christ’s finished work on the cross for us. And by that personal response of faith, God, according to His grace, and to the glory of Christ, forever saves and justifies the one who has faith in Jesus (Rom. 3:21-30).

.

 

[Theodora]

Why is it necessary for the ones who believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, to continue to avail themselves upon the Bible? Why bother to continue to read it? One has already been saved!

Life is a perilous journey towards a final destination: Heaven. We’re fighting our way to get to it. We are told from the Bible to put on an Armor - a spiritual, heavenly armor, and it tells us also that we are fighting a spiritual warfare against a formidable enemy. The only time that enemy cannot reach us any longer is when we finally have arrived at our safe haven, Heaven!. And only then can anyone consider himself Saved and no sooner.

No mincing of words can change the dynamics of warfare, be it the wordly kind or the spiritual kind.

 

[WBB]

Ozzie:

One cannot “merit” Heaven or salvation, period. In fact, the word is not even in the N.T. Is believing considered a “work?” Not according to God’s Word: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works…(Eph. 2:8-9). Obviously God does not consider faith a “work,” otherwise He wouldn’t have said “through faith…not as a result of works.” Faith is a personal response to the message concerning Christ’s finished work on the cross for us. And by that personal response of faith, God, according to His grace, and to the glory of Christ, forever saves and justifies the one who has faith in Jesus (Rom. 3:21-30).

. We agree! Finally! I personally like the way that my bible translation (The New Jerusalem Bible) puts those verses from St. Paul’s letter to the Ephesians because it makes it more personal:

“Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God; not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.”

But lets read on just to make a point about works…verses 9 and 10.

“We are God’s work of art, created in Christ Jesus for the good works which God has already designated to make up our way of life.”

Isn’t it interesting that after St. Paul tells us that we are saved by nothing we have done of our own, he then tells us that we are created for the good works which God has already designated to make up our way of life. That is what St. James is saying in his letter when he says “In the same way faith; if good deeds do not go with it, it is quite dead.” In other words…and this is the important thing…God bestows us his grace freely. We did nothing to deserve it. But once we accept this free gift, we respond in thanks by doing the works “which God has already designated.” If we don’t then have we really responded to God’s free gift or have we just paid it lip service?

 

[Ozzie]

Theodora:

Why is it necessary for the ones who believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, to continue to avail themselves upon the Bible? Why bother to continue to read it? One has already been saved!

That’s like saying, “why bother to vote, I’m already an American.”

The only time that enemy cannot reach us any longer is when we finally have arrived at our safe haven, Heaven!. And only then can anyone consider himself Saved and no sooner.

“For by grace you HAVE BEEN saved…” You have no idea what Christ accomplished on the cross. This is so tragic! “He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore HAVING BEEN justified we have peace with God…” (Rom. 4:25-5:1).

 

[Ozzie]

Theodora:

Why is it necessary for the ones who believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, to continue to avail themselves upon the Bible? Why bother to continue to read it? One has already been saved!

Life is a perilous journey towards a final destination: Heaven. We’re fighting our way to get to it. We are told from the Bible to put on an Armor - a spiritual, heavenly armor, and it tells us also that we are fighting a spiritual warfare against a formidable enemy. The only time that enemy cannot reach us any longer is when we finally have arrived at our safe haven, Heaven!. And only then can anyone consider himself Saved and no sooner.

No mincing of words can change the dynamics of warfare, be it the wordly kind or the spiritual kind.

 

[Ozzie]

WBB:

We agree! Finally!

Isn’t it interesting that after St. Paul tells us that we are saved by nothing we have done of our own, he then tells us that we are created for the good works which God has already designated to make up our way of life. That is what St. James is saying in his letter when he says “In the same way faith; if good deeds do not go with it, it is quite dead.” In other words…and this is the important thing…God bestows us his grace freely. We did nothing to deserve it. But once we accept this free gift, we respond in thanks by doing the works “which God has already designated.” If we don’t then have we really responded to God’s free gift or have we just paid it lip service?

I wish we did agree. But the passage does not say God bestows “his grace” freely. “For BY grace you have been saved…” It is salvation that is FREE. To bestow “grace freely” is an oxymoron. And verse ten does not say we (the saved) are created in Christ Jesus BY good works, but FOR good works. The saved are now IN Christ, the “last Adam.” No long in the Adam of the Garden, dead in trespasses and sins. The Apostle Paul didn’t work to spread the good news of Christ and suffer the things he did in order to get saved, or in the hope that in the end he might be saved. He spead the message of Christ crucified because he was saved. Otherwise, there’s no message of the cross at all.

 

[Katholikos]

Part 1

Salvation by faith alone: Commentary from Father Mateo

QUOTE
Really, all that needs to be said is this: Salvation is a Gift of God. His Word says that you are saved by grace, not by works, lest any man should boast … however, IF you are in Christ, then good works are a by product of being born again. You will do good works, not because it saves you, because it does not, but because you love the Lord and want to please Him…
Dave
Dear Dave,

In view of the total witness of Scripture to the interconnected roles of grace, faith, and good works, the Reformation recipe is emphatically not “all that needs to be said”. All three–grace, faith, good works–are needed to be saved. Since God is the author of all Scripture (2 Tim. 3:16), one cannot prefer Paul to James. One must give full value to both and to the total witness of Scripture. To say, “You will do good works, not because it saves you, because it does not …” denies the witness of James 2:14-26 and much other Scripture.

Furthermore, Paul denigrates not good works, in globo, but “works of the (Mosaic) law”. He dismisses the latter because we are not bound by circumcision and the specifically Jewish practices consequent upon circumcision (Romans 3:28). But good works in general, works done in love, are an indispensable part of our service to Christ and so an essential ingredient of our salvation (Matt. 25:31-46).

The importance of works must be upheld along with the importance of grace and of faith. Hence the Lord, in his messages to the churches of Asia in Revelation, says to Ephesus, “Repent and do the works you did at first” (Rev. 2:5); to Thyatira, “I know your works, your love, faith, service, and endurance, and that your last works are greater than the first” (2:10), and “I will give each of you what your works deserve” (2:23); to Sardis: “I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God” (3:2).

When John the Baptist sent messengers to Jesus to reassure himself and his disciples that Jesus was indeed “the One who was to come” (Luke 7:18-23), the Lord answered by appealing to the witness of his own works. In John 14:10-12, Jesus attributes all his own works to the Father (“gives the Father the credit,” as we might say). He then offers his works as a motive for his disciples’ faith (v. 11). Finally (v. 12), he promises that faith will enable his disciples to do even greater works than his own. How can anyone say that God attaches no importance to works?

Continued

 

[Katholikos]

Part 2

QUOTE (continued)

Paranoia about works does not do service to grace and faith. That would be like refusing to admit the existence and importance of apples lest you seem to undervalue the appletree. Denial of the role and importance of works in our salvation honors neither Scripture nor the Lord of Scripture. We must preach the whole Gospel.

Sincerely in Christ,
Father Mateo

Copyright © 2000 Catholic Information Network (CIN)

END QUOTE

 

[WBB]

Ozzie:

I wish we did agree. But the passage does not say God bestows “his grace” freely. “For BY grace you have been saved…” It is salvation that is FREE. To bestow “grace freely” is an oxymoron. And verse ten does not say we (the saved) are created in Christ Jesus BY good works, but FOR good works. The saved are now IN Christ, the “last Adam.” No long in the Adam of the Garden, dead in trespasses and sins. The Apostle Paul didn’t work to spread the good news of Christ and suffer the things he did in order to get saved, or in the hope that in the end he might be saved. He spead the message of Christ crucified because he was saved. Otherwise, there’s no message of the cross at all.

Oz man! We agree. We are not created in Christ Jesus by good works, and so teaches the Catholic Church! We are not saved by our works but by faith working in love. Even St. Paul says that. However, salvation itself is not just paying lip service to God. Which is what St. James is saying. Ok…now that you have accepted the gift of salvation through your faith, go and do what you need to do, don’t just sit there. Kind of like what the angels said to the disciples in the first chapter of Acts when Jesus ascended and they were just standing there looking up at the sky. The angels said (my paraphrase), “Hey, what are you guys doing? Get to work!”

I am a Catholic. I do not believe I earn my salvation. But I also don’t believe I can just sit on my butt after I have accepted God’s gift of salvation, because that is not making responsible use of that gift.

 

[Katholikos]

WBB:

Oz man! We agree. We are not created in Christ Jesus by good works, and so teaches the Catholic Church! We are not saved by our works but by faith working in love. Even St. Paul says that.

Ozzie believes in the foundational Protestant doctrine of Sola Fide – that we are saved by Faith alone.

This was one of the historic Church’s disagreements with Luther. Faith alone is not sufficient to save us.

This doctrine originated from a misreading of Scripture. It was not the teaching of the Apostles, and therefore it was not the teaching of Christ. No Christian believed this doctrine until it was invented in the 16th century when first Luther, and later John Calvin, “found” it in the Scriptures. It’s pure bull-oney.

JMJ Jay