I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[KLStevens]

exrc:

Putting a bible in the hands of an RC is really scarry!

With all due respect it is ONLY from the Catholic Church (through the working of our Lord) that you have a Bible!

Learn our common Christian history!

No Christian would have a bible had it not been for the Catholic Church! Even as the Reformers tried 1500 years later to edit Scripture, they had enough sense to admit Scripture was given to us and preserved by the Catholic Church!

For more information see:
Where We Got The Bible
by Henry G. Graham

Come back to Mass any day and you can see how we Catholics embrace the Bible. Its words flow continuously throughout our Mass. Visit us every Sunday for three years and you will hear practically every word of Scripture at the Catholic Church.
We don’t allow a Pastor to pick and choose which Scripture he’d like us to hear in the year. We get to hear it all. There is no section of Scripture that we are uncomfortable with.

Throw off your blinders man.
You’re hurting yourself with your own pride.
We and Jesus’ Catholic Church are here for you whenever you want the truth. We welcome and pray for your return.

Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens

PS: Email me anytime and I will gladly send you some information that just might be helpful in your struggles.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

KLStevens:

With all due respect it is ONLY from the Catholic Church (through the working of our Lord) that you have a Bible!

Learn our common Christian history!

No Christian would have a bible had it not been for the Catholic Church! Even as the Reformers tried 1500 years later to edit Scripture, they had enough sense to admit Scripture was given to us and preserved by the Catholic Church!

For more information see:
Where We Got The Bible
by Henry G. Graham

Come back to Mass any day and you can see how we Catholics embrace the Bible. Its words flow continuously throughout our Mass. Visit us every Sunday for three years and you will hear practically every word of Scripture at the Catholic Church.
We don’t allow a Pastor to pick and choose which Scripture he’d like us to hear in the year. We get to hear it all. There is no section of Scripture that we are uncomfortable with.

Throw off your blinders man.
You’re hurting yourself with your own pride.
We and Jesus’ Catholic Church are here for you whenever you want the truth. We welcome and pray for your return.

Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens

PS: Email me anytime and I will gladly send you some information that just might be helpful in your struggles.

We need to praise God for without Christ there would be no church.

 

[exrc]

WBB:

Hey ex,

No smokescreen. That is what it means. No contradiction. We can only merit salvation because God offers it.

So let me get this right, we can merit(earn) are salvation by what means?

Good works?

Then Romans 11:6 has no meaning.

It’s grace or works not both.

You make no sense.

 

[KLStevens]

exrc:

Is my own personal experience without any worth?

Quite frankly, your personal experience is just that. A personal experience relevant to you and possibly to some others–although nothing in Scripture tells me I should take your personal experience as evidence of a truth I am required to believe.

Its weight cannot be compared to Sacred Scripture and 2000 years of Sacred Tradition.

We are mearly human and should never convince ourselves that our human capacity is anything close to that of Jesus, His Scripture or His Church.

Is this why you left the Church? Did you feel your personal experience should carry as much validity as the truth that was clearly given to us by the Lord? Even if your personal experience contradicted 2000 years of Christian Teaching?

And please don’t forget about Satan. He is at work in the world and would love all of us to foresake Jesus’ Catholic Church for our own “personal truth.” He loves to distort Scripture. A clue to whether you are distorting Scripture is often how well it is challenging you. Jesus, Our Lord, was challenged. Why should we expect an easy ride that conforms to what feels good to us?

Again we are human. Following Jesus was never supposed to be easy, warm and fuzzy. It is supposed to be difficult, remember the cross–obviously not something warm and fuzzy. We are required us to loose ourselves to the things of this world for the sake of His will. (Remember that our will has no place in the Lord’s plan–we are to do what He wills us to do.)

So yes, although maybe not pastorally sensitive, your personal experience is not on par with Sacred Scripture or 2000 years of Sacred Tradition, unless of course you are Jesus at the Second Coming–then we’d have another situation on our hands wouldn’t we?

Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens

 

[WBB]

exrc:

So let me get this right, we can merit(earn) are salvation by what means?

Good works?

Then Romans 11:6 has no meaning.

It’s grace or works not both.

You make no sense.

Ok…one more time…:banghead: You can merit (achieve or be made worthy of, not earn (v. intr)…merit has more than one definition) salvation ONLY by responding to God’s offer of salvation with faith through the passion of Christ. Or if you want to look at it this way…which is the same thing…you can say that you are only worthy of salvation because God says so. If you want to call that works, then you are obtaining salvation by works, too, my brother.

 

[KLStevens]

exrc:

So let me get this right, we can merit(earn) are salvation by what means?

Good works?

Then Romans 11:6 has no meaning.

It’s grace or works not both.

You make no sense.

Romans 11:6 is right in line with Catholic teaching–as is all of Scripture. Nothing can be done without the Grace of God. Without God’s Grace our works or deeds mean nothing. This does not mean that works done through God’s Grace are useless! Do you see the difference?

Why do you disregard all of the earlier posts that explain that it is by God’s grace alone that we have faith which manifests itself in our works?

It is not an either/or. If you want to beat your head against a wall trying to make a Catholic admit it is one or the other you will have one mighty bruise! To us its anything but an either/or.

Why do you disregard one of the most clearly written lines of Scripture on the subject:

“So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.”
–James 2:17

Please pick up your Bible and read James 2:14-26, Gal 5:6, 1 Cor 13:2, John 14:15 and Matt 19:16-19

Just in case you don’t have your Bible handy:

And from the mouth of our Lord Jesus Christ:
In response to a question about what one shall do to “gain eternal life,” Matthew 19:17-19:

Jesus Our Lord said:
“If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.
…You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultary; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother; and you shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

What is the problem with listening to the Words of Our Lord telling us we need to act in a certain way not just think or believe a certain way?

Why do you choose your interpretation of Paul’s letters over the clear directive given to us by Our Lord Jesus in Matthew 19:17-19?

Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens

And please email me a private email and I will send you some information that might be useful. I’m sure I’m not the only one who can see you need some better information to help you make an informed decision about what Christ is actually asking us to do.

“For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without work is dead.”
–James 2:26

 

[Katholikos]

exrc:

Katholikos] Is my own personal experience without any worth?

Truth is objective, not subjective. God’s truth is not dependent either on human agreement with it or dissent from it. It’s like the laws of physics, of which He is also the author. If your personal experience coincided with the Truth as revealed by Jesus Christ through His Apostles and His Church, it would be persuasive. Since it doesn’t, we can be certain that it was not from God.

I would love to read it, because it would give me better understanding of your spiritual position.

My personal experience can be found at www.chnetwork.org. At the home page, click on “conversion stories,” then scroll down to Jay Damien. It is also at www.revolutionoflove.com.
Thank you for asking. If you have any questions or comments about it, write to me at Jaydamien@aol.com.

Peace be with you, Jay

 

[KLStevens]

Katholikos:

My personal experience can be found at www.chnetwork.org. At the home page, click on “conversion stories,” then scroll down to Jay Damien.

Thanks for sharing that link with us Jay and thanks for writing about your conversion.

It was history that brought me back to the church. I could not see basing my understanding of Christ and what He wanted of me on anything other than the one given by the Church He established 2000 years ago. Every single Protestant denomination since has been founded by a man (occasionally a woman)–not an Apostle-- and always at least 1500 years after the Catholic Church was founded. Why would I take the practices and beliefs of a 19th century American over that of Jesus’ Apostles! Not to mention all the divisions within the non-Catholic Christian community…if they all had it so right, why do they all keep splitting apart! And why would I take a 19th century American’s interpretation of what the Bible means over one that existed for 2000 years? In reality it would be more correct for me to say it was history and authority that brought me back to Jesus’ One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church!

I had never visited that site before but occasionally see the show on EWTN. Thanks again for the link and all your wonderful insight in this forum.

Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens

 

[Katholikos]

K L Stevens wrote:

No Christian would have a bible had it not been for the Catholic Church! Even as the Reformers tried 1500 years later to edit Scripture, they had enough sense to admit Scripture was given to us and preserved by the Catholic Church!

“We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all.” ~ Martin Luther

“Papist” was a perjorative word – coined by Luther – meaning “Catholic.”

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

KLStevens:

Thanks for sharing that link with us Jay and thanks for writing about your conversion."

:tiphat: My honor. Thank you for reading it.

Praise and exalt Him forever!

JMJ Jay

 

[Prester_John]

bengal_fan:

said like this, i agree with you. but it seems you are fighting a battle of semantics. everyone who is saved is saved by Christ (the way,** the** truth, and the life) through the catholic church (the church He established), but that doesn’t mean they were part of that church (practically) here on earth. they might have been protestants on earth (or perhaps even a non-Christian religion), but when they enter (or if they enter) heaven, it is through Christ’s church. i think all the catholics here agree with this and this is the teaching in the catechism, but GrzeszDel you are saying it in a way that is confusing to some and actually causes some to see you as denying the catechism (as i’m sure you see them doing also) when it really all comes down to the way in which you are saying it.

Dear bengal_fan;

I wish I had your way with words!!! I always find I have to too many, and I never seem able to put things so concisely. Bravo.

 

[KLStevens]

Katholikos:

K L Stevens wrote:
“We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all.” ~ Martin Luther

“Papist” was a perjorative word – coined by Luther – meaning “Catholic.”

JMJ Jay

Read that quote just the other day–had to laugh! At least while trying to put us down he couldn’t hide the high honor the Church received as being the one to have given us the Bible!

Peacec,
KLStevens

 

[Prester_John]

yes and also thankyou to Katholikos for the really interesting link.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

You did not include the full 2027. In fact, you even capitalized the “We” which makes it look like it is the start of the sentence when it isn’t.

exrc:

Explain this,
We can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life. 2027 CCC

**This is the complete sentence in 2027: **Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

This is the complete 2027:
No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Also consider, Ozzie, exrc et al, that there is no profit in eating a plain piece of bread. Jesus said the flesh profits nothing.

We welcome you to the Catholic faith and would be happy to have you in the family.

The faith vs. works argument just goes on and on. The simple fact is that faith indeed requires a response. Merit means to work out your salvation, not “earn” which is to purchase something.

Earn = “I can offer something to God that pays the price for Heaven.” We do not believe that.

Merit = “Jesus has allowed me to go to Heaven so I cooperate with Him. I must obey Him otherwise it is not really true to say I have faith.”

That is why I believe it is essential to obey Jesus and eat His flesh.

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

What do Protestants think you can do, say you have faith then live a sinful and selfish life?

You say, “We respond to grace.” Yes, we Catholics call that merit. You make a difference when there is none. I think the roots of this are probably personal dislikes and disappointments with some people of the Catholic Church, as I have said before. Welcome to the human race. We try to bear with each other and work things out, not leave with our Bibles and say “you just need a Bible.” Jesus didn’t leave a Bible on the ground when He rose to Heaven, He left apostles with a mission. These apostles gathered inspired writings and letters of their own people. Many of the letters in the Bible are authoritative letters of Church pastors to the churches.

There is dissent among some Catholic clergy and laity, but I do not leave, I stay for the sake of Jesus. He stayed on the cross for my sake, I can stay in His Church for His sake.

If you want to respond to grace, then come to the Eucharist as Jesus commands.

Everyone repeatedly talks about faith vs. works. However, when I say that eating a plain piece of bread profits nothing because Jesus said the flesh profits nothing (John 6:63), no one wants to discuss and admit that. Is this evasion? Is this humility, graciousness, and sincerity?

You talk about faith. Sinful pride is not a sign of faith. Evasion is not a sign of faith. Denial is not a sign of faith. Argumentativeness and debating about words (see St. Paul) is not a sign of faith.

Come join us in the Catholic faith. There is no escaping the truth, if you think there is, you only deceive yourself, and self-deception is also not a sign of faith.

Come and unite with us in the Catholic faith. We invite you and we welcome you. Receive Jesus in the Eucharist and enter the depths of the true faith. Don’t stay away from Jesus. If you love Jesus with all your heart, how can you possibly stay away from Him when He offers Himself to you in communion? Obey Him and let Him do His work in you.

Greg

 

[JesusFreak16]

Cubby:

God’s peace and love to you all. And BTW Lisa, I’m a man!
(Is my signature too girly or something?)

I am sorry I thought you were a girl. I wasn’t sure and I had a fifty/fifty shot… so i guessed. I’m sorry. Anyway to you and Greg and everyone else… I have always believed that communion is the body and blood of Christ. I question my beliefs so that I am sure that they are the right ones, so that’s why I have been actling like I believe otherwise, so I can find true defenses for the beliefs that we share. I am questioning this particular belief, so any help is appreciated!
God Bless~
Lisa

 

[JesusFreak16]

I want to clarify my previous post just a little…
For the majority of my life I was Lutheran, and they share some beliefs with Catholics that my current church does not, like infant vs. believer’s baptism, and actual body and blood vs. symbolism. At my church, I have real life friends that know what they are talking about. I can ask them questions. My Catholic friends don’t seem to know very much about their faith, so I come to you.
I am having conflicting thoughts, and I am seeking th truth, whether it lies in the Catholic church or elsewhere.
God Bless~
Lisa

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hi Lisa,

JesusFreak16:

I question my beliefs so that I am sure that they are the right ones, so that’s why I have been acting like I believe otherwise, so I can find true defenses for the beliefs that we share. I am questioning this particular belief, so any help is appreciated!

It is good to question and not just accept without discerning for yourself.

Jesus says the flesh profits nothing in John 6:63.

1. When Jesus said that the flesh profits nothing, He contrasted the flesh with the spirit, He did not contrast eating with not eating. He teaches us that earthly flesh is indeed useless for salvation. He teaches us that eating His flesh gives us life because His flesh is from Heaven and not earthly flesh. Would anyone deny that Jesus is from Heaven and not from earth? (see John 3:6) Yes, He is human flesh like us and He is divine even as a human. Even His wounds and His death were freely accepted for our sake and no sign of weakness of His flesh. “The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.” Was Jesus referring to His own flesh when He said that to Peter? No, nor was He referring to His flesh when he said the flesh profits nothing.

2. Another Catholic way to look at this is that Jesus is teaching to stop thinking in terms of earthly understanding. Don’t think of eating His flesh as we think of earthly eating. He wants us to raise our minds to see the spiritual meaning of what He is saying and that His flesh is not from earth but from Heaven.

3. Protestants claim that the last Supper does not confirm the Catholic understanding of John 6. This is preposterous:
Compare **John 6:51 with Luke 22:19 **
John 6:51 the bread
Luke 22:19 he took the bread

John 6:51 that I will give
Luke 22:19 gave it to them

John 6:51 is my flesh
Luke 22:19 is my body

John 6:51 for the life of the world
Luke 22:19 for you

In fact, I find denial of this to be suspiciously biased and reading Scripture as you want to, not as intended.

**4. **If even Jesus flesh profits nothing (as Protestants may interpret John 6:63) then how does His death and resurrection profit our salvation?

5. It is true that earthly flesh does not profit salvation (as Jesus teaches) and Ozzie says that means eating something does not do anything. This means then, that in Protestant communion the act of eating nothing more than a piece of bread profits nothing by their own admission.

Greg

 

[JesusFreak16]

Greg_McPherran:

It is true that earthly flesh does not profit salvation (as Jesus teaches) and Ozzie says that means eating something does not do anything. This means then, that in Protestant communion the act of eating nothing more than a piece of bread profits nothing by their own admission.

Members of my church think that taking communion was commandd by Jesus, and therefore we must do it. “Do this in remembrance of Me.” When they take communion, they do it because they are remembering Jesus and His sacrifice.
I haven’t decided anything for sure yet.
Anyway, thank you.
~Lisa