I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[Greg_McPherran]

1 Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel did not come to you in word alone, but also in power and in the holy Spirit and (with) much conviction.

**1 Timothy 1:7 **Some people have deviated from these and turned to meaningless talk, wanting to be teachers of the law, but without understanding either what they are saying or what they assert with such assurance.

Greg

 

[WBB]

Katholikos:

exrc, your explanation of “Catholic beliefs” illustrates how poorly instructed your were in your faith. How unfortunate.

You didn’t give up the Catholic faith; you gave up what you erroneously believed was the Catholic faith. And instead of studying the Faith and learning the Truth, you traded the Truth for a sermon, a song and a hodge podge of heresies.

I don’t have time now, gotta leave my computer, but I’m sure others will point out to you the difference between what the Church teaches and what you believe.

In fact, you didn’t “discover” that Catholics “sacrificed Christ all over again at every Mass” until some know-nothing Protestant pointed it out to you and told you that you weren’t “saved.” And you didn’t know the Faith well enough to defend it against Protestant fallacies.

Peace be with you, Jay

Simply put, the protestants who say that we “call down Jesus to the altar to kill him again” don’t understand that Jesus is glorified in heaven and cannot be killed again. Death has no more power over him. However, at the same time he is eternal, able to break through time and space to visit us with his eternal sacrifice forever. The human mind can barely fathom this mystery, so that is where faith overtakes us. Furthermore, the sacrifice Jesus gave was not the process of dying. It is the process whereby he GIVES and GIVES and GIVES. We not only cannot kill Jesus again, we don’t have to because he GIVES us his glorified body and blood in the sacrament of the altar and that is what makes it sacrificial…that he GIVES it to us freely to offer to the Father.

Of course, exrc will come back and say, but the RC church kills him again on the altar. I will just keep plugging along.

Brian

 

[KLStevens]

Once Saved, Always Saved in a relatively new concept in the History of Christianity and one that DID NOT ORIGINATE with Christ or His Early Church.

It was never accepted until after the Reformation and then only by Christians outside of Jesus’ Catholic Church.

The Apostles nor the earliest Christians did not believe this–for 1500 years it was not a practiced belief.

I will always accept the teaching that originated with Jesus Christ over an interpretation of His teaching provided 1500+ years after His Death and Resurrection and the establishment of His Church.

Let alone a teaching that originated not with His Apostles but rather 1500 years later with a disgruntled ex-Catholic monk.

---

And as I noticed–and have still not received a reply about–St. Paul even addresses this in 1 Cor 9:27

“I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.”

Notice he doesn’t fear a lack of faith disqualifying him but rather inadequate use of his body (his faith not manifesting in his works).

Romans 2:1-16
Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.
We know that the judgment of God on those WHO DO such things is true…By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, WHO WILL REPAY EVERYONE ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS: ETERNAL LIFE TO THOSE WHO SEEK GLORY, HONOR AND IMMORTALITY THROUGH PERSEVERANCE IN GOOD WORKS, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who DOES GOOD…There is no partiality with God. All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.

Above even St. Paul says that those who sin will perish and those to receive ETERNAL LIFE persevere in GOOD WORKS.

So now, what happens to those who “accept Jesus Christ as their Savior” and truly believe He is the Lord yet still sin–do not persevere in GOOD WORKS?

Our Salvation is up to God.

And if you personally think you “know” that you are saved, regardless of what you do and that I am not because I follow the teaching of Jesus’ Catholic Church you are mistaken. Again, Our Salvation is up to God.

To have such absolute assurance in your Salvation is different from having absolute assurance in that it is through Jesus Christ that our salvation is even possible!

The first is the sin of presumption,
the second is FAITH in our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Lord asks us not to be presumptuous (unduly or overbearingly confident–The Oxford Essential Dictionary). Rather he asks us to be humble and recognize that we are limited as humans and in NO WAY can be overly confident that WE KNOW WHAT GOD IS DOING FOR US! We can only hope we know–if we say we do know we are walking dangerously close to lowering God to our level or elevating us to His.

We can be humble and hope or be presumptuous and assume.

Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens

 

[Greg_McPherran]

exrc:

RC’s believe that salvation can be lost because of bad behavior.

Hebrews 10:26-27 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

exrc:

We are doing good works to earn rewards.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

exrc:

What they have come up with, is a process by which they literally re-sacrifice Christ in what they call mass or (the blessed sacrament).

Hebrews 9:25 that he might now appear before God on our behalf. ***Not ***that he might offer himself repeatedly,

You see, the one sacrifice can still now appear before God.

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

exrc:

Use your common sense here Lisa. Do you become holy by learning from Gods word, speaking with him, yielding to his will in your life, and believing his promises.Which is essentially eating him figuratively?

OR

The RC way of eating him literally?

exrc:

Use your common sense here Lisa. Do you become holy by learning from Gods word…

Use common sense about God’s word in John 6.

exrc:

yielding to his will in your life

Obey John 6.

exrc:

believing his promises.

Believe John 6

exrc:

Which is essentially eating him figuratively?

John 6:52 “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”

exrc:

The RC way of eating him literally?

John 6:55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

I still would like to know your interpretation of John 6:64

John 6:64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing.

exrc? What does “the flesh profits nothing” in John 6 mean?

 

[Philthy]

Originally Posted by exrc
*Use your common sense here Lisa. Do you become holy by learning from Gods word, speaking with him, yielding to his will in your life, and believing his promises.Which is essentially eating him figuratively?

OR

The RC way of eating him literally? *
Oh this is vintage baloney - notice how I am being polite. “Use your common sense!?” Please show me that one in the bible - I don’t remember it. Common sense will not bring you to faith in Jesus Christ, but it may bring you to heresy very easily. Secondly, your conclusion that “learning… speaking…yielding…and believing” is “essentially eating him figuratively” is complete nonsense. None of that is even mentioned in the bread of life discourse. What would be the point of such an analogy? Why would Christ’s disciples stop following him if (in reference to “eat my flesh”) all he meant was figurative? And if you think it was because they misunderstood him, why didn’t he explain otherwise(it would be a sin for him not to, and we know that never happened)? Please show me the earliest quote anyone has for the support of a “figurative” Eucharist - then we’ll see where “common sense” leads us.
But notice also the more subtle junk: somehow we’re led to believe that and learning…speaking…yielding…and believing" are in direct opposition to the “RC way”- as if they are somehow mutually exclusive. Quite the contrary.the RC church has ALL of these elements - the fullness of the Truth - not just bits and pieces.
*And one last point: the Sacrifice of the Mass is a re-presentation (not representation) of Christ’s once for all Sacrifice to the Father. His sacrifice is **eternal **so it can be applied for all time. This is no different than applying Christs sacrifice for forgiveness of sins. If Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary was “complete” in the sense that exrc would have us believe, then **why do we need to confess our sins over and over? **Does that mean all who confess sins for forgiveness do it because they believe Christ’s sacrifice was somehow incomplete? Of course not! The application of Christs eternal sacrifice is applied to the need in our temporal lives. If you give up the Eucharist because you believe it’s “recrucifying Christ” then Im afraid you’re gonna have to give up the forgiveness of sins on the very same basis. See where “common sense” will lead you. *
“Likewise you younger members(I wont add names!) be subject to the presbyters(not your own common sense) and ALL OF YOU clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for God opposes the proud but bestows favor on the humble. So humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God that he may exault you in due time.” 1Peter 5:5-6
Phil

 

[KLStevens]

Dear Lisa,

Please take the time to read John 6.
The words from Jesus’ lips are quite clear.

John 6:51-71
51 “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”

52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

**Jesus uses the word “true” here, not “symbolic.” And note what is said in 6:52. People even questioned then that we could be given His Flesh. But look at Jesus’ reply in 6:53.

56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

**Above we see that Jesus is not mincing words. He says again and again that He is the bread. Note 6:54. He is not asking us to eat bread in remembrance of Him. Also note 6:55. Here Jesus stresses that His flesh, “is true food,” His blood “true drink.” Jesus does not say–as our non-Catholic Christian brothers and sisters do that this is merely a symbol. Jesus is speaking very clearly here.

The doubt in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist came with the Protestant Reformation. Before that, Jesus’ presence in the Eucharist was universally accepted by all of the Catholic Churches.

It is also interesting to continue reading in John.
60 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”

**Our Scripture tells us that this is hard to accept!

61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you?

62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.

**Here Jesus knows that some would not believe! He felt no need to clarify His words to help them believe, they needed to accept His teachings as He taught them.

65 And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”

66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

**Amazingly here, people are sitting with Jesus, learning from Our Lord and refused to accept His teaching. One can see that it isn’t a far stretch for people of today to also not accept this teaching.

67 Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”

Please try to accept the words of Our Lord over the opinions of people today. I wish the best to you in your journey towards the Truth.

Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens

 

[Pax]

Ozzie:

… Is believing considered a “work?” Not according to God’s Word: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works…(Eph. 2:8-9). Obviously God does not consider faith a “work,” otherwise He wouldn’t have said “through faith…not as a result of works.” …
.

Ozzie,

I have already shown you that faith is a gift which you denied in an earlier post. I have also demonstrated that faith is not only a gift but it is also a work. You even claim that believing (i.e.faith) is not a work according the word of God.

Obviously, you need a scriptural refresher in this regard. Both faith and love are works according to scripture.

See the following verses:

In John’s vision in the book of Revelation, Jesus warns members of the church at Ephesus that they might be destroyed if they do not repent and return to the love they once had. This is very clear in Rev 2:4-5 where Jesus says, “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.” Then again just before addressing the transgressions of the church at Thyatira, Jesus says in Rev 2:19 that, “I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.” These verses are significant in two ways. They show the necessity of love in the plan of salvation, and they show that both love and faith are referred to as works.

Paul teaches that faith and love are works in 1st Thessalonians 1:2-3 where he says, " We always give thanks to God for all of you and mention you in our prayers, constantly remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

[Pax]

exrc:

What is a marginal RC? You are or you are not, there is no in between. My Mom and Dad are truly RC’s, two of the nicest most generous, loving people you’ll ever meet. They are cradle RC’s just like me. They never miss any official RC function. If it wasn’t for the fact that I spent years trying to teach them about spiritual issues, they would have voted for Kerry also. They are still to this day convinced that they will be saved because their good deeds out weigh the bad, as I used to be. Are they “marginal” RC’s pax? Talk about putting blinders on.

You know in your heart what the truth is Pax. If you follow the RCC to a “T” ,you are doomed to hell. It’s not until you put personal faith in Christ ALONE, that you will be saved. How can you argue with my personal experience?

This is what happens when you mix faith and works to achieve salvation. The carnal mind will always choose works for salvation. Why do you think Paul was so adamant about NOT adding works to faith? He knew this very thing would happen! Why do you think there are so many carnal RC’s?

Do you know how many carnal RC’s would be eliminated from the numbers if you just stopped infant baptism?

Wake up!

These people wouldn’t be in the RCC embarrassing you, calling themselves RC’s.

Did your mother ever encourage you to read it before then, or teach you out of it, or use it in any other way but storage for important documents?

. I AM, thankful for them. However, they are in their late seventies and still do not know the way to eternal life. Would they have been better off as atheists or agnostics? Maybe ! Look what happened to the Pharisees, they were blinded by they’re own self righteousness as opposed to the publicans who knew they were sinners. Blessed are the poor in spirit for they will see God!

Wake up Pax.
Your friend Dan!

Dan,

Kerry is a marginal Catholic. I use the term generously because he still claims to be Catholic but refuses to accept the Church’s teaching and authority on abortion. You cannot truly be Catholic and hold his position.

Your parents and others I know who needed persuasion not to vote for someone like Kerry may not be marginal Catholics. If they are merely ignorant of the issues and the political positions he holds concerning abortion, euthanasia, and embryonic stem cell research, they are Catholic but simply uninformed. There is a difference there.

You speak glowingly of how loving and generous your parents are. I am glad that you recognize this in them. Try recognizing that your parents are loving and generous because of the grace of God within them. Your parents may not be able to articulate the true teachings of the Church as they should, but that does not mean that they are somehow unsaved. God is merciful beyond measure and it is not our place to judge. You are no longer Catholic, but I would never contend that you will be condemned even though I firmly believe that you have abandoned the true faith. To judge in the area of salvation is the sole domain of the Lord. We are not in a position to do this. Your condemnation of Catholics is beyond the pale.

Yes, my mother read to me from the bible and many spiritual books. In fact my mom never bought me any secular reading material when I was a kid. Better still my mother took me to mass everyday, except Saturdays, during my grammar school years. I also attended Catholic Highschool and attended mass six days a week during those four years while school was in session. Since the scriptural readings at daily mass will in two years cover the entire bible you can see that I was provided with a dramatic exposure to scripture. I thank my parents who were guided by the Holy Spirit for this great gift.

 

[Pax]

Dan,

I do not argue with the facts of your personal experience. I simply argue with the way you universally apply your personal experience. I do not argue with your claims about what you learned and didn’t learn as a child. I simply argue with your misinformed positions on Catholic teaching.

Informed Catholics on this board have made a sincere effort to bring you partially up to speed on Catholic teaching. Your response has appeared to be unbending and remains entrenched in an underdeveloped youthful exposure to the faith. The part that really eludes me in understanding you, however, is the bitterness and contempt that you hold for Caholics and the teachings of the Church.

While I strongly disagree with your positions on scriptural, historical, and logical grounds, I have no antipathy for you or your Protestant tradition. I see you as a brother in Christ, albeit a separated brother, but you are still my brother in Christ. You, on the other hand, do not view Catholics as Christians and you believe us to be condemned to hell. There is clearly something wrong here that I do not grasp.

I occassionally run into this type of bigotry but it is only held by a small minority of those that consider themselves to be Christian believers. As Christians we cannot have this attitude toward anyone or anyone’s faith. This simply is not the work of Christ in one’s heart.

 

[Katholikos]

To: Captain Michael Trust

My nephew will be home from Iraq November 15. Our hearts and prayers are with you all. May that great cloud of witnesses (Hb 12:l) pray for you without ceasing and may Mary’s mantle cover and protect you.

Jay Damien
Phoenix

 

[Theodora]

Ozzie

My question: Why is it necessary for the ones who believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, to continue to avail themselves upon the Bible? Why bother to continue to read it? One has already been saved!

Your answer: That’s like saying, “why bother to vote, I’m already an American.”

“For by grace you HAVE BEEN saved…” You have no idea what Christ accomplished on the cross. This is so tragic! “He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore HAVING BEEN justified we have peace with God…” (Rom. 4:25-5:1).

When I saw your response to my question, I reacted with “huh?” I think your attempt of an “analogy” is off the mark. Why? Because there’s no similarity between my question and your answer. Once you have been saved implies that there’s no further action needed on the part of the one already saved. You might as well consider yourself to be in heaven already.

An American who does not vote has shirked his duty as a US citizen. He could somewhat be compared to a Christian who does not meet his duties as a Christian, among other things: feed the poor, admonish the sinner, cloth the naked, visit the ones in prison, etc.

So you see, from my point of view there are no parallels or even similarities between my question and your response.

Now, as in regards to grace. Yes, I also believe that by grace I have been saved. And then what? That’s it? I have made it? I am saved! Like I said above, I might as well be in heaven already. I have attained the prize. No need for me to do anything else? Why should I? I have arrived! But what do you make of St Paul writing *Not that I already obtained this *(this being *the resurrection from the dead *(Phil 3, 11) The resurrection from the dead is the promise to those who have arrived in heaven, the ones who are without a doubt “saved.” ***

Brethren I do not consider that I have laid hold of it already* (Phil 3, 13) *I strain forward to what is before, I press on towards the goal, to the prize… *(Phil 3, 14) The goal is the final destination of eternity in heaven, the prize is the ultimate of prizes - heaven with all its blessings and awesomeness. Why should I exert myself (*strain) *to reach that goal? A goal is something that is in the future, but not according to Once Saved Always Saved. The logical conclusion of this premise is that that goal already has been reached, but how can it be? It is something in the future.

Yes, I am fully aware why Christ died such a horrible death on the cross. Because by virtue of his own blood, into the Holies, he obtained our eternal redemption. (Heb.9, 13) The word “redemption” is associated with “buying back, repurchasing, winning back.” It is not synonymous with the meaning of the word “salvation.” The word salvation means “an act of liberating, preservation from destruction, deliverance from danger,” etc. So, Jesus won back the world from Satan. The liberating ransom Christ paid is by his ignominious death on the cross. I don’t know about you, but I am acutely aware that I lack a deeper comprehension of the unspeakable suffererings Christ underwent. Yes, it was a truly tragic event, but according to God’s justice this is the way it had to be. Just meditating on this is mind boggling, at least for me.

continued…

 

[Theodora]

As a Bible-reading Christian I have come to some of the following conclusions:

To be saved means to have arrived in heaven. While on earth you still need to work out your salvation in fear an trembling, as the Apostle Paul says. (Phil.2:12). *Not everybody who says Lord! Lord! shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of the Father. *(Mat.7:21) These two quotes alone contradict the premise Once Saved Always Saved.

I continue reading the Bible and find that

Salvation is contingent upon Faith. What is Faith? Faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that are not seen. Hebr. 11:1.

The just ones live by faith. God is not pleased when you lose your faith. *

We, however, are not of those who draw back unto destruction, but of those who have faith to the saving of the soul. *(Heb.10:38)

To me *to draw back unto destruction *means to loose your faith, a prerequisite in order to save one’s soul. So then, one can lose his faith and when he does, he loses his salvation.

Mat.10:23 He who has persevered to the end will be saved. Why do we need to persevere? If we don’t, according to this verse, we will not get saved. This verse has no meaning if we are already saved.

Mat. 10: 32 *Therefore, everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I in turn will disown him before my Father in heaven.

*Rest assured that many will deny Christ when confronted with the prospect of terrible torture and death in order to make a person deny Christ. It could be you, it could be me who might do the denying. Don’t be too sure it cannot happen. If it does happen, out the window goes the theory Once Saved Always Saved. If one does not persevere up untill the very last moment just before death with his faith in Christ, that person has lost his salvation. *For he who would save his life will lose it; but he who loses his life for my sake will find it. *(Mat. 16:25) If I am to believe that my salvation is already assured, these verses have become irrelevant to me, and to be honest everything else that’s written in the Bible that challenges the Assurance of Salvation theory is of no interest to me. That’s why I came to the conclusion, why bother to read the Bible if you’re already saved.

Ozzie, you have your scenario of salvation according to your understanding of the Bible. I just gave you mine. I am pretty sure that you have another take of what I just wrote. I think the Bible Alone theory is not a tool that unites. In fact, it has divided Christianity into thousands of denominations and sects. Even if there are only five denominations teaching different beliefs, that would be four too many. What are denominations but offshoots and breaks from an original. Find that original and you have found the source of authentic Christianity.

What does unite is Christ, especially in the Eucharist when each day millions of Catholics rally around Him when they attend Holy Mass. There are so many accounts with the absolute proofs (Miracle of Lanciano is one of them) of Eucharistic miracles showing the undeniable presence of Christ in consecrated hosts. But do you ever see this phenomena being reported and discussed on a History Channel, for example, or Discovery Channel? No… The mystery of it all is that Eucharistic miracles are the greatest secret of the age.

You must have read the passage where it says that *the letter kills, but the spirit gives life. *(2 Cor 3:6) To me this is a good example of an admonishment that just by reading the Bible, people invariable will arrive to wrong conclusions, even to the detriment of their own soul.

I’ll stop now before this turns into a personal epistle of mine.

May the God of Peace be with you and bless you.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

To Ozzie,a brother in Christ. I dont believe in once saved always saved.Yes salvation is a gift given to me but it only becomes a gift if I recieve it and use it.Im not doing good works to earn my salvation. I do them because now I am a child of God and I want to share in His love. God knows every work that I do and I pray that I do them only to Glorify Him. Im storing my rewards in the Kingdom of Heaven. Every one of our works are going to be tested before the Lord. Do we recieve the glory now on earth or will they be stored in the kingdom? Salvation is a process. It reqires an action on our part. Its a journey we are on towards the kingdom in heaven. Its for those who finish the good race, for Christ is waiting to pick us up at the finish line. I pray I make it to the finish line. Praise God

 

[Greg_McPherran]

JesusFreak16:

I don’t think that anyone would say that Jesus was referring to His own flesh when He says that it profits nothing, but I may be wrong.

Consider the interpretations:

If interpret that it does not refer to Jesus’ flesh but to all earthly flesh (this is basically the Catholic interpretation)rotestants cannot use “the flesh profits nothing” to deny the Catholic understanding of John 6.

Also if earthly flesh profits nothing, why would Jesus command us to eat plain bread (as Protestants believe)?

Also, this agrees with the Catholic interpretation that Jesus was distinguishing between earthly and spiritual and not that He was saying not to eat His flesh (since He is the bread from Heaven).

***If ***interpret that it does refer to Jesus’ flesh and earthly flesh:Makes no sense because the incarnation profits our salvation.

Also if earthly flesh profits nothing, why would Jesus command us to eat plain bread (as Protestants believe)?

Also makes no sense because this would confirm that the hearers thought Jesus was actually talking about real eating and if Jesus was correcting this they would not be concerned that Jesus was saying that.

If interpret that it refers to only ***eating ***Jesus’ flesh or earthly flesh:If eating flesh profits nothing, why would Jesus command us to eat plain bread (as Protestants believe)?

Also makes no sense because this would confirm that the hearers thought Jesus was actually talking about real eating and if Jesus was correcting this they would not be concerned that Jesus was saying that.

So you see Lisa, there is not one possible interpretation that makes sense considering that Protestants believe they eat plain bread. Plus the denial that John 6 and the Last Supper are unrelated is preposterous as I have said.

I truly believe that this one Bible phrase is one of the greatest revealers of the truth: “the flesh profits nothing”

That one Bible phrase is the great revealer of falsehood.

It is amazing how the Catholic Church, the Body of Jesus, that has been correct about this all along. The Church has tolerated division and so much debate from Protestants who use all kinds of Bible phrases that seemingly have “no right answer” so they can interpret them as they want. Yet this one Bible phrase cannot be interpreted in a way that makes sense given Protestant practice. Then it shows how many other mistruths there are in Protestantism because once you see the one error you start to realize that the others and the whole thing comes crumbling down.

The power and wisdom of God reveals error in our interpretations of His truth and our fleshly thinking that separates us from truth.

"the flesh profits nothing"

We can talk about faith vs. works but I have yet to hear a good answer from Protestants about John 6:63-64. I believe the only good answer is to accept the truth of Catholic understanding. Lisa, I think the more you ask your Church members about this, the more you will be surprised that the Catholic Church has been right all along. Glory to Jesus!

Greg

 

[Philthy]

Ozzie:

Are you serious my friend?

“Truly, truly I say to you, he who hears my word, and BELIEVES Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and DOES NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, but has passed out of death into life” (Jn. 5:24). And there are hundreds more. Just start with the Gospel of John and take note of what Jesus says about the eternal value of belief in Him.

You see God has explicitly communicated to us in His immutable, inerrant Word the eternal value of Christ’s cross and our faith in Him alone for complete salvation/justification. But the legalist diligently searches the Scriptures to try to prove Him wrong. Isn’t that kind of arrogant?

Hey Ozzie-
First, this is not the first time that you have used this quote to justify your claim that faith (apart from anything else) in Jesus is all that is required for salvation. However, this verse explicitly states 2 conditions for salvation:
1)“he who hears my word” and
2) believes in HIM WHO SENT ME

The first conditional is ambiguous in that is it referring to the Word or to people who actually listened to Jesus personally.
The second condition specifically speaks to faith in the FATHER - not Jesus. I’ve pointed this out to you before but you seem stuck on extracting “faith alone in Jesus gives me instantaneous, complete and permanent salvation” It simply doesn’t say that.

I know you’re quite confident in your beliefs, which is good. But you really should consider some of what has been compassionately expressed to you by the many people on this post. If you do, you’ll realize, at least, that there is more than one intellectually valid interpretation.

Phil

 

[Ozzie]

trustmc:

And it was only after performing such miracles that Christ proclaimed that faith saves, but never within the context of eternal salvation.

You’re absolutely right that Jesus’ words, *“your faith has saved you” *in the gospel accounts in respect to physical healings is never in the context of eternal salvation. It is CONTEXT that always determines the definition of a word being used. And, yes, here it’s used only in respect to a temporal condition. This is not the case in respect to the explicit teachings say in the gospel of John where it is stated: *“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish but HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, BECAUSE he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” *(Jn. 3:16-18). Here, and literally hundreds of other places, belief in Christ has immediate ETERNAL effects.

Men and women of Israel came to Jesus because they had temporal, physical infirmities and desired to be healed by Him. Obviously they had heard that He had the power to heal. He used each of these physical healings as lessons of personal faith by stating *“your faith has made you well.” *These lessons were in preparation for the day which would soon come (after His death, bodily resurrection and ascension) when they would all need to place their faith in Him, not for a temporal healing, but eternal salvation.

Yes, only grace saves us from condemnation, but faith and works together justify us before God (James 2:24).

Sorry, but with all due respect, this is a distorted statement. Justification is an integral part of salvation. They can not be disassociated. There is no salvation apart from justification.

In Ephesians Paul emphatically states: *“For by grace you have been saved through faith…IT IS A GIFT of God…not as a result of works, that no one should boast.” *In Romans he states the same in respect to justification: “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified AS A GIFT by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.” In both cases Paul employs the Greek word, “dorean,” which means, “without cause,” i.e., “for nothing” on the part of the believer." For example, Paul says to the Corinthians that he himself labored so that he could preach to them the gospel message “free” (Gr. adoranon, 1 Cor. 9:18; 2 Cor. 11:7, Gr. dorean). One of the best examples of “dorean” is in Jn. 15:25 where Jesus says, “they hated Me without a cause” (dorean). The cause of their hatred was in them, not in Christ. Turning this about: the cause of our justification is in God, through Christ, not us. We are justified dorean - freely, gratis, giftwise, without cause in us. There are absolutely no works involved on the part of the one whom God justifies freely (dorean).
Continued…