I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[Greg_McPherran]

JesusFreak16:

Members of my church think that taking communion was commanded by Jesus, and therefore we must do it. “Do this in remembrance of Me.” When they take communion, they do it because they are remembering Jesus and His sacrifice.

1. Why would Jesus say eating something profits nothing (as Ozzie interprets John 6:63) and then command you to eat something?
2. If “the flesh profits nothing” refers to Jesus’ flesh then how does His death and resurrection profit our salvation?

 

[JesusFreak16]

1. I’m not really asking how Ozzie interprets it. What is the actual quote from the Bible?
2. I don’t think that anyone would say that Jesus was referring to His own flesh when He says that it profits nothing, but I may be wrong.
   Lisa

 

[Greg_McPherran]

JesusFreak16:

1. I’m not really asking how Ozzie interprets it.

That’s fine, I was merely using Ozzie’s interpretation as a typical non-Catholic interpretation.

JesusFreak16:

What is the actual quote from the Bible?

John 6:63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

(You may see “the flesh profits nothing” instead of the “the flesh is of no avail” in some Bibles. Same meaning, just slightly different translation.)

JesusFreak16:

I don’t think that anyone would say that Jesus was referring to His own flesh when He says that it profits nothing…

Tell me what interpretation you would like to examine and we can discuss it.

Greg

 

[exrc]

KLStevens:

Romans 11:6 is right in line with Catholic teaching–as is all of Scripture. Nothing can be done without the Grace of God. Without God’s Grace our works or deeds mean nothing. This does not mean that works done through God’s Grace are useless! Do you see the difference?

No matter how you try to confuse the issue here, your salvation is soley dependent upon your behavior as an RC. This behavior is your works.

Therefore, you nullify grace as Paul states in Rom. 11:6

Why do you disregard all of the earlier posts that explain that it is by God’s grace alone that we have faith which manifests itself in our works?

I do not disagree with this statement at all.

It is not an either/or. If you want to beat your head against a wall trying to make a Catholic admit it is one or the other you will have one mighty bruise! To us its anything but an either/or.

Thats the problem! You blurr the line between grace and works, when it is necessary to keep them separate in certain situations.

These two are in direct opposition with each other, when it comes to how salvation is achieved.

After initial justification or (salvation), works are inseparable from grace, but not for the means of salvation of yourself.

This is the mistake of the Galatians,who tried to keep themselves justified by obeying the law of works, as you also do.

Why do you disregard one of the most clearly written lines of Scripture on the subject:

“So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.”
–James 2:17

If you have no works that come from God, then you had better reconsider whether you are truly a believer or not.

This is what this verse says.

Please pick up your Bible and read James 2:14-26, Gal 5:6, 1 Cor 13:2, John 14:15 and Matt 19:16-19

These are excellent verses to show you what a real believer looks like. Not how to achieve salvation.

Big difference!

 

[trustmc]

Greetings from Babylonia… I mean Iraq!

First, thank you KLStevens and SPOKENWORD for your prayers. And thank our Lord for this forum. It keeps me grounded in faith.

With that said I hope I can help exrc with my understanding of “merit.” In military schools, cadets are able to earn “merits” or “demerits” by their performance. For instance, polishing your brass insignia, pressing your uniform, shining your boots, tightening your bunk – these are just some of the ways we can earn merits which we then can exchange for privileges like weekend passes and such.

This comparison squares exactly with what Christ said when he told his followers to “store up your treasures in heaven.” Obviously Jesus knew that our work on His behalf on earth will affect our lives in heaven. To be sure, Jesus’s “good work” on the Cross merits for us eternal life, but our continual response to His sacrifice in the form of charity motivated by gratitude only adds to the outcome.

It comes down to cause and affect: For the believer, Jesus’s merits (on the Cross and in the Tomb) are the cause of our salvation. The merits we earn when we do His will in faith affect our salvation – the latter not being possible without the former.

So when the Catholic Catechism teaches that good works are meritorious towards our salvation, it does not mean that works “earn” our salvation. Instead, it simply means that our good works merit for us treasures in heaven. That we are even allowed in heaven to begin with is merited by Christ alone by the Father’s grace. The caveat is that when good works are done apart from God’s will, that is, in a spirit of self-agrandizement, then they count for nothing. Remember the lesson from Ecclesiastes that even the persuit of righteousness apart from glorifying God is mere vanity.

Likewise, committing mortal sins after having placed our faith in Christ is analogous to earning “demerits.” Unconfessed, they may prolong or intensify the purging in Purgatory. And persistence in unrepented mortal sin is actually the rejection of God’s grace that the author of Hebrews warns us about – kind of like being expelled from military school after having already been admitted.

Once I understood the concept of merit, I was able to read the Catechism from a whole new perspective. I pray this helps. See you around the Kingdom!

Captain Michael Trust
U.S. Army
Baghdad, Iraq

 

[Ozzie]

WBB:

Oz man! We agree. We are not created in Christ Jesus by good works, and so teaches the Catholic Church! We are not saved by our works but by faith working in love.

No…We don’t agree. We are saved “BY GRACE through faith,” subtle but profound.

I am a Catholic. I do not believe I earn my salvation. But I also don’t believe I can just sit on my butt after I have accepted God’s gift of salvation, because that is not making responsible use of that gift.

But *“responsible use of that gift” *has absolutely no part in God saving you by HIS grace through your faith in Christ. Otherwise it’s no GIFT at all. The “love” in Gal. 5:6 is not an added condition for salvation, it is a personal response to one’s salvation.

ROM 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

 

[WBB]

exrc:

No matter how you try to confuse the issue here, your salvation is soley dependent upon your behavior as an RC. This behavior is your works.

After initial justification or (salvation), works are inseparable from grace, but not for the means of salvation of yourself.

This is the mistake of the Galatians,who tried to keep themselves justified by obeying the law of works, as you also do.

#1…I am Catholic and I do not believe that my salvation is based on my behavior as a Catholic as evidenced by St. Paul’s letter to the Ephesians.

#2…You are mistaken about the Galatians. Gal 3:10 “On the other hand, all those who depend on the works of the Law are under a curse, since scripture says: Accursed be he who does not make what is written in the book of the Law effective, by putting it into practice.” They tried to be justified by depending on works of the Law (of Moses), not by obeying the law of works…there is a difference. Catholics do not depend on the law of Moses as defined in Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

#3…You have absolutely disregarded all of the posts that clarify your incorrect understanding of the Catholic doctrine of justification and salvation. Anytime we effectively point out that the Catholic Church agrees that we achieve salvation simply because God gives it to us, you refute it and start all over again repeating the same drivel.

 

[WBB]

Ozzie:

No…We don’t agree. We are saved “BY GRACE through faith,” subtle but profound.But *“responsible use of that gift” *has absolutely no part in God saving you by HIS grace through your faith in Christ. Otherwise it’s no GIFT at all. The “love” in Gal. 5:6 is not an added condition for salvation, it is a personal response to one’s salvation.

Galatians 5:5-6 “We are led by the Spirit to wait in the confident hope of saving justice through faith, since in Christ Jesus it is not being circumcised or being uncircumcised that can effect anything–only faith working through love.”

Hmmm…sounds like “faith working through love” is what effects justification and salvation, since St Paul said that only “faith working through love” can effect anything. Are you going to dispute St. Paul’s very words?

 

[trustmc]

Hello Ozzie,

Good point about that comment on being “saved by faith.” I believe the writer merely mispoke though. I’ve heard even bible-literate evenagelicals make the same mistake, which is easy to do since Christ, on more than one occassion, proclaims to the recipients of His miracles: “Your faith has saved you.”

What faith in Christ actually saves us from is our earthly or temporal condition. For instance, the paralytic was saved from paralysis, the blind man from blindness, the demoniac from demons, etc. These are temporal conditions brought about by our broken humanity in a fallen creation that requires the faith of a second or third party to be saved. (It was Mary’s and Martha’s faith that saved their brother, Lazarus, from death.) And it was only after performing such miracles that Christ proclaimed that faith saves, but never within the context of eternal salvation.

Yes, only grace saves us from condemnation, but faith and works together justify us before God (James 2:24). In fact it is only in this verse that the term “faith alone” is used in the entire bible. And the context clearly contradicts the protestant doctrine of sola fides – or, at best, exposes the protestants’ use of anti-biblical language to formulate the doctrine of justification.

Where you and I can agree is that grace is always and only the grounds for our salvation. But faith and works are equally the marks of our salvation too.

I pray this helps. See you around the Kingdom, brother!

Captain Michael Trust
U.S. Army
Baghdad, Iraq

 

[KLStevens]

exrc:

Thats the problem! You blurr the line between grace and works, when it is necessary to keep them separate in certain situations. These two are in direct opposition with each other, when it comes to how salvation is achieved.

Says who? You say they’re in opposition to each other–Scripture and 2000 years of Tradition tell me otherwise!

You are literally banging your head against the wall here denying what I previously wrote.

Grace, Faith and Works are not as you say “in direct opposition with each other.” Quite to the contrary they are all interdependent.

You are trying to justify a very young Protestant understanding of Salvation by creating a conflict where there isn’t one. Grace Faith and Works are all INTERDEPENDENT. Without Grace, Faith and Works mean nothing. Without Grace and Faith, Works mean nothing. Without Grace and Works, your Faith is incomplete!

Stop allowing yourself to read Paul’s letters ina bubble! All Scripture must be read in relation to itself, not in isolation. So if one line says “faith is needed,” or “following the law is of no concequence” and another says “FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD,” you need to accept ALL that is said there! To do otherwise is to appoint yourself editor and interpretor extrodinare of Scripture. I think that was God’s job, not yours, and last time I checked he handed that job off to Jesus’ Catholic Church about 2000 years ago!

exrc:

No matter how you try to confuse the issue here, your salvation is soley dependent upon your behavior as an RC. This behavior is your works.
Therefore, you nullify grace as Paul states in Rom. 11:6
This is the mistake of the Galatians,who tried to keep themselves justified by obeying the law of works, as you also do.
If you have no works that come from God, then you had better reconsider whether you are truly a believer or not.
These are excellent verses to show you what a real believer looks like. Not how to achieve salvation.
Big difference!

Quite honestly man–I do not need you telling me what I need to believe. I have Jesus’ Church to look to for that answer!

Jesus’ Catholic Church tells me quite clearly that I do not need to go through the motions as a Catholic to have Salvation and reach Heaven. Quite the opposite! It tells me Salvation is possible outside the Church however, “THE FULLEST MEANS OF SALVATION IS AVAILABLE THROUGH JESUS’S CATHOLIC CHURCH.”

Jesus’ Catholic Church also tells me quite clearly that those who go through the motions of being Catholic are not guaranteed a place in Heaven.

Did you feel uncomfortable because you couldn’t recite the Rosary or something and you felt that made you less of a Catholic? I’m sorry if you experienced something like that. But that is simply not the case with the Catholic Church. If you continue to believe otherwise you are only fooling yourself.

PLEAE NOTE:
Jesus Christ Our Lord says:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who DOES the will of my Father in Heaven.” --Matthew 7:21

“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and ACTS ON THEM willbe like a wise man who built his house on rock…And everyone who hears these words of mine and DOES NOT ACT ON THEM will be like a foolish man who built his house on sand.”
–Matthew 7:21-27

CLEARLY HERE JESUS DOES NOT SAY:
One who hears me and has faith in me is a wise man. Quite the opposite. Jesus doesn’t even mention FAITH in this exchange. HE MENTIONS ONLY WORK!

You can keep fighting it but then don’t forget you are foresaking the Word of Our Lord Jesus for your interpretation of the words of Paul. I couldn’t sleep at night chooseing Paul over my Lord Jesus Christ.To me, I would rather read the words of Paul in light of the TEACHINGS OF JESUS CHRIST rather than reading the words of Our Lord in light of Paul’s teaching!

-continued

 

[KLStevens]

–continued from above

---

From all of your posts it is obvious that you are quite confused and misinformed about what it truly means to be Catholic and rather than finding out what the Church actually teaches, you left His Church and chose to wallow in your misinformation probably to make your decision to leave Jesus’ Catholic Church more acceptable to yourself.

If you choose to keep relying on your personal understanding of Jesus while rejecting Sacred Scripture, His Church, and 2000 years of Sacred Tradition, only you will have to live with that decision.

Many here have tried to help you and will continue to. But only you can choose to take your blinders off and set aside your hatred. We can’t help you with that. Jesus never asked us to spoon feed a faith to unwilling participants. Open your heart and stop resisting all the gifts that people are offering you here.

Again, please contact me personally and I will send you some further information.

Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens

 

[KLStevens]

trustmc:

Once I understood the concept of merit, I was able to read the Catechism from a whole new perspective. I pray this helps. See you around the Kingdom!

Captain Michael Trust
U.S. Army
Baghdad, Iraq

Thanks for the wonderful post!

 

[exrc]

JesusFreak16:

Members of my church think that taking communion was commandd by Jesus, and therefore we must do it. “Do this in remembrance of Me.” When they take communion, they do it because they are remembering Jesus and His sacrifice.
I haven’t decided anything for sure yet.
Anyway, thank you.
~Lisa

Lisa,

Very simply,

RC’s believe that salvation can be lost because of bad behavior.So they need a remedy for this.What they have come up with, is a process by which they literally re-sacrifice Christ in what they call mass or (the blessed sacrament).They believe the RC priest has the authority to call Jesus down from heaven and kill him once again on the altar. Then through a process called transubstantiation he turns the wafer into the actual body, and wine into the actual blood of Christ. Which is to be ingested by the sinful party to pay for his or her sin.You can dress it up with fancier language, but it is simply just this.

I personally have participated in this ritual for many years.However, my sins still remained.

My true freedom came when I believed that Jesus died ONCE, for ALL my sins at calvary.

Condemnation to hell from your sin is no longer an issue for the true believer in Christ.

The issue then becomes the salvation of others who are looking at your walk with Jesus.

Will you be a hindrance or a help to Christ, that is the question!

Use your common sense here Lisa. Do you become holy by learning from Gods word, speaking with him, yielding to his will in your life, and believing his promises.Which is essentially eating him figuratively?

OR

The RC way of eating him literally?

Blessings to you my beloved sister in Christ!

In love, ex- roman catholic Dan

 

[exrc]

trustmc]Greetings from Babylonia… I mean Iraq!

First, thank you KLStevens and SPOKENWORD for your prayers. And thank our Lord for this forum. It keeps me grounded in faith

I give my thanks and blessings to you also. I am also ex-military, and I understand merits and demerits.

With that said I hope I can help exrc with my understanding of “merit.” In military schools, cadets are able to earn “merits” or “demerits” by their performance. For instance, polishing your brass insignia, pressing your uniform, shining your boots, tightening your bunk – these are just some of the ways we can earn merits which we then can exchange for privileges like weekend passes and such.

Thank you

This comparison squares exactly with what Christ said when he told his followers to “store up your treasures in heaven.” Obviously Jesus knew that our work on His behalf on earth will affect our lives in heaven. To be sure, Jesus’s “good work” on the Cross merits for us eternal life, but our continual response to His sacrifice in the form of charity motivated by gratitude only adds to the outcome

How can you add to the payment of a debt which has been already paid?.

It comes down to cause and affect: For the believer, Jesus’s merits (on the Cross and in the Tomb) are the cause of our salvation. The merits we earn when we do His will in faith affect our salvation – the latter not being possible without the former.

You can neither cancel what Jesus has done on the cross or improve it.

So when the Catholic Catechism teaches that good works are meritorious towards our salvation, it does not mean that works “earn” our salvation. Instead, it simply means that our good works merit for us treasures in heaven

This I can agree with. We are doing good works to earn rewards. Some will be ashamed on that day, and some will rejoice. However, both will be saved none the less.Only those who have not believed will be cast into hell.
.

Likewise, committing mortal sins after having placed our faith in Christ is analogous to earning “demerits.” Unconfessed, they may prolong or intensify the purging in Purgatory

This declares Christs sacrifice insufficient, and is utter blasphemy!

No sin is greater than his sacrifice.

You simply don’t understand the depth of how holy God is and how sinful we are.
.

And persistence in unrepented mortal sin is actually the rejection of God’s grace that the author of Hebrews warns us about – kind of like being expelled from military school after having already been admitted.

No my friend, it merely deprives you of the rewards you could have had.

Once I understood the concept of merit, I was able to read the Catechism from a whole new perspective. I pray this helps. See you around the Kingdom!

Bless you my friend,

However, I am truly concerned that these debates might distract you during very dangerous moments, and I do not want to see you get hurt.

My advice is to wait until you are out of harms way,before you continue here. Remember, these are very passionate discussions.I have personally lost much sleep over my concerns for people.

Peace,and love to you, my brave friend!

In love Dan!

 

[RBushlow]

trustmc:

Hello Ozzie!

1. We are saved from the *consequence *of sin by Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross. That I can believe with 100% assurance so long as I have faith in Christ. It is His promise after all as you have rightfully pointed out.
2. We are currently being saved from the power of sin. Hense, after we place our faith in Christ, he imparts his Holy Spirit to indwell within us to free us from the bondage of sin. The Catholic sacraments were instituted by Him for us to participate in that process. We don’t believe that they are salvific per se as “good works,” but they do increase our faith in Christ which increases our ability to persevere in the faith – much the same way that your bible studies and other pious practices increase your faith in Christ.
3. We will be saved from the very presence of sin. At the final judgement the Lord will reveal the names of the faithful departed from the Book of Life. IF one was saved from the consequence of sin, and continued throughout his life to be saved from the power of sin, then he will be saved from the very presence of sin upon entering into heaven.

I hope this helps, Ozzie. See you around the Kingdom, brother!

Captain Michael Trust
U.S. Army
Baghdad, Iraq

Thanks for the clear explanation of the Catholic Faith, and you have our heartfelt thanks for all that you and all of our service men and women are doing for the cause of freedom. May God send his Angels to encamp roundabout you.

May the peace of Christ, the Love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

 

[Katholikos]

exrc, your explanation of “Catholic beliefs” illustrates how poorly instructed your were in your faith. How unfortunate.

You didn’t give up the Catholic faith; you gave up what you erroneously believed was the Catholic faith. And instead of studying the Faith and learning the Truth, you traded the Truth for a sermon, a song and a hodge podge of heresies.

I don’t have time now, gotta leave my computer, but I’m sure others will point out to you the difference between what the Church teaches and what you believe.

In fact, you didn’t “discover” that Catholics “sacrificed Christ all over again at every Mass” until some know-nothing Protestant pointed it out to you and told you that you weren’t “saved.” And you didn’t know the Faith well enough to defend it against Protestant fallacies.

Peace be with you, Jay

 

[KLStevens]

exrc:

RC’s believe that salvation can be lost because of bad behavior.So they need a remedy for this.What they have come up with, is a process by which they literally re-sacrifice Christ in what they call mass or (the blessed sacrament).They believe the RC priest has the authority to call Jesus down from heaven and kill him once again on the altar. Then through a process called transubstantiation he turns the wafer into the actual body, and wine into the actual blood of Christ. Which is to be ingested by the sinful party to pay for his or her sin.You can dress it up with fancier language, but it is simply just this.

Lisa,

For the record what this man is offering you here is a thoroughly debunked misunderstanding and if delibrate is shameful!

Gloss you way through ANY book about the Eucharist and you will find it is in NO WAY a re-sacrifice.

This man obviously sticks with his own prejudices rather than learn what the real truth is.

I have now offered this man on more than a few occasions to personally send him material that will help him to better understand his misconceptions and he has no replied. His is more interested in regergitating old debunked misunderstandings than in learning what the Church really believes.

I pray you will be able to undertand what REALLY happens in the
Eucharist. And I pray you do not allow misguided, bitter and stubborn people direct you away from Jesus and His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

To Dan,

Seriously, your arguements are most ill-informed.

Learn something here Dan, there has been a bunch of really great information provided for you.

Calm your ego and pride and realize you are flatly WRONG on what we do as Catholics. I can say it no other way except that you are both ill-informed and wrong.

May the Lord Open Your Ears, Open Your Eyes and Open Your Heart to the Truth.

Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens

 

[Greg_McPherran]

exrc:

These two are in direct opposition with each other, when it comes to how salvation is achieved.

After initial justification or (salvation), works are inseparable from grace, but not for the means of salvation of yourself.

James 2:20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? (Scripture quote)

exrc:

This is the mistake of the Galatians,who tried to keep themselves justified by obeying the law of works, as you also do.

Eating a plain piece of bread as obeying a law seems more like Galatians works of the law to me.

Protestants do works of eating plain bread. They repeat this process over and over again.

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

exrc:

I personally have participated in this ritual for many years.However, my sins still remained.

How about the ritual of eating a plain piece of bread? What profit for salvation does this ritual have?

 

[Greg_McPherran]

exrc:

This declares Christs sacrifice insufficient, and is utter blasphemy!

Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church…

You don’t interpret that to mean that there is anything lacking in Christ’s sacrifice, do you?

Greg