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exrc
Guest
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
Hi Ozzie,
Ozzie:
Ozzie, here is the Catholic definition of the word merit:
**MERIT: **The reward which God promises and gives to those who love him and by his grace perform good works. One cannot “merit” justification or eternal life, which are the free gift of God; the source of any merit we have before God is due to the grace of Christ in us.
usccb.org/catechism/text/glossary.htm#m
Ozzie:
Ozzie:
Ozzie, you and other non-Catholics can read a Catechism or other Catholic literature to clear up these misconceptions. With the internet and availability of Catholic literature, these incorrect statements about Catholicism are easily overcome with a bit of self-study.
I would say, read Scripture, look at the CA main page, the Vatican web site www.vatican.va and this online Catechism
usccb.org/catechism/text/index.htm
After you understand Catholicism more fully, then let’s continue our conversation. If you have questions, feel free to ask anytime. All I ask is please do not jump to conclusions about Catholicism and then post messages accusing us of believing things that we don’t believe to begin with.
Very best wishes to you Ozzie,
Greg
That’s for sure and Catholics don’t believe that you can. Don’t let the word “merit” used in Catholicism confuse you. I assure you, that Catholics do not have a concept of being able to “earn” Heaven. Again, we do not think that way. It’s easy to take the word “merit” and use it to make it look like Catholics believe things that they don’t believe.
Ozzie, here is the Catholic definition of the word merit:
**MERIT: **The reward which God promises and gives to those who love him and by his grace perform good works. One cannot “merit” justification or eternal life, which are the free gift of God; the source of any merit we have before God is due to the grace of Christ in us.
usccb.org/catechism/text/glossary.htm#m
Yes, this personal resonse that you speak of is how we “merit” salvation by cooperating with God’s plan. However, we have no power of our own to claim Heaven. It is God’s offer of salvation.
Yes, it is finished, and this work is made present at mass by the command of Jesus. St. Paul speaks of priesthood.
Ozzie, you and other non-Catholics can read a Catechism or other Catholic literature to clear up these misconceptions. With the internet and availability of Catholic literature, these incorrect statements about Catholicism are easily overcome with a bit of self-study.
I would say, read Scripture, look at the CA main page, the Vatican web site www.vatican.va and this online Catechism
usccb.org/catechism/text/index.htm
After you understand Catholicism more fully, then let’s continue our conversation. If you have questions, feel free to ask anytime. All I ask is please do not jump to conclusions about Catholicism and then post messages accusing us of believing things that we don’t believe to begin with.
Very best wishes to you Ozzie,
Greg
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WBB
Guest
Perhaps we should at this point inform our Protestant brothers and sisters that what Catholics mean by “merit” is what they call “bearing fruit.”
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
I think you may need to understand the mindset of the audience that St. Paul was teaching. James clears up any incorrect conlusions that could be made by misreading was St. Paul was teaching.
Good works of love and kindness are necessary but these are founded in faith. Love covers a multitude of sins.
Have faith in the Eucharist. What profit is there in eating a plain piece of bread? Jesus said the flesh profits nothing.
Greg
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
Some of the roots of Protestantism could be any number things including personal dislike and disappointment.
While some of these concerns may sometimes be valid, the Church of Jesus is to be protected by the faithful from within, not abandoned and criticized from the outside.
Greg
While some of these concerns may sometimes be valid, the Church of Jesus is to be protected by the faithful from within, not abandoned and criticized from the outside.
Greg
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Katholikos
Guest
exrc wrote:
The Church learned that little ones should be baptized from the Apostles, not from attempting to interpret words on a page 21 centuries after Christianity began, as if the entire revelation of God were contained in a book – which the Church herself wrote, incidentally. Christianity did not begin as a religion based upon scripture.
The NT does not say “do not baptize babies,” but implies several times that children were baptized, and in fact, children were baptized in the early Church.
For example:
“Baptize first the children; and if they can speak for themselves, let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them.” St. Hippolytus of Rome, The Apostolic Tradition, c. A.D. 215.
“The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the inate stains of sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” Origin, *Commentaries on Romans, *A.D. 244.
JMJ Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!
But we cannot stop baptizing little ones unless we want to come under the condemnation of Christ.
The Church learned that little ones should be baptized from the Apostles, not from attempting to interpret words on a page 21 centuries after Christianity began, as if the entire revelation of God were contained in a book – which the Church herself wrote, incidentally. Christianity did not begin as a religion based upon scripture.
The NT does not say “do not baptize babies,” but implies several times that children were baptized, and in fact, children were baptized in the early Church.
For example:
“Baptize first the children; and if they can speak for themselves, let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them.” St. Hippolytus of Rome, The Apostolic Tradition, c. A.D. 215.
“The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the inate stains of sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” Origin, *Commentaries on Romans, *A.D. 244.
JMJ Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!
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Katholikos
Guest
chuckle chuckle heh heh
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WBB
Guest
Well, there you have it, right from the mouth of God himself. If you follow the teachings that Christ gave to the apostles, you are doomed to hell.
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SPOKENWORD
Guest
Katholikos said:
Gods Spirit is not rude. No one want to be laughed at whether you agree or disagree. Im not this boards police patrol so I only speak what the Word of God says. Read 1 corinth.ch13 and let God minister to your heart.
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Katholikos
Guest
Sorry, but I found the statement quite humorous that anyone’s personal experience is absolute proof of God’s truth.Gods Spirit is not rude. No one want to be laughed at whether you agree or disagree. Im not this boards police patrol so I only speak what the Word of God says. Read 1 corinth.ch13 and let God minister to your heart.
Shall I offer my own personal experience in rebuttal?
Protestants generally have no sense of humor about religion. Catholics, on the other hand, are joyful.
You know, of course, that I am an ex-Protestant. I write from personal knowledge.
May Christ minister to your heart,
JMJ Jay
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trustmc
Guest
Hello Ozzie!
I’d like to return to one of your original discussions about “being saved” to help clear up a few things.
Yes, Paul writes that believers are *saved *(past tense). But he also writes about being saved (present tense) and about how he and they will be saved (future tense). I’m sure you know already the appropriate verses.
What has helped me understand my assurance of salvation is the following formula that I recommend to any believer to help place these verses in their proper context:
Thomas Aquinas answered this question perfectly by placing the doctrine of predestination in its proper context: There are those of us who are predestined to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ (i.e., the first element of salvation), but what we do with it afterwards is up to us. In his teaching, not all of the “predestined” Paul wrote about will make it to heaven since the predestination he spoke of was about coming to a saving knowledge of the gospel. No one is predestined to persevere in the faith; that is completely up to us! With that said, it is not possible to persevere without God’s grace, and that we have free will to submit to God is also a product of His grace for having given us the ability to freely choose Him. So the whole process is truly grounded in grace alone.
Where we can agree is on the following: If you were to ask me, “If you die tonight how sure are you that you will go to heaven?”
My answer:
If I were to die right now, I believe I will go to heaven by virtue of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross for me. My faith and works did not earn this salvation, since both have failed me before. But God’s grace alone as revealed by Christ’s sacrifice is my only claim to heaven.
Notice that the question asks if I were to die right now when I can be certain of my fate, not at some distant time in the future. Final note: When I shed my Calvinistic beliefs in eternal security, I became more dependent on God’s grace, not less, as I had previously taken it for granted thanks to Calvin. Subsequently, my faith in Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior has grown thanks to Catholicism, not diminished.
I hope this helps, Ozzie. See you around the Kingdom, brother!
Captain Michael Trust
U.S. Army
Baghdad, Iraq
I’d like to return to one of your original discussions about “being saved” to help clear up a few things.
Yes, Paul writes that believers are *saved *(past tense). But he also writes about being saved (present tense) and about how he and they will be saved (future tense). I’m sure you know already the appropriate verses.
What has helped me understand my assurance of salvation is the following formula that I recommend to any believer to help place these verses in their proper context:
- We are saved from the *consequence *of sin by Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross. That I can believe with 100% assurance so long as I have faith in Christ. It is His promise after all as you have rightfully pointed out.
- We are currently being saved from the power of sin. Hense, after we place our faith in Christ, he imparts his Holy Spirit to indwell within us to free us from the bondage of sin. The Catholic sacraments were instituted by Him for us to participate in that process. We don’t believe that they are salvific per se as “good works,” but they do increase our faith in Christ which increases our ability to persevere in the faith – much the same way that your bible studies and other pious practices increase your faith in Christ.
- We will be saved from the very presence of sin. At the final judgement the Lord will reveal the names of the faithful departed from the Book of Life. IF one was saved from the consequence of sin, and continued throughout his life to be saved from the power of sin, then he will be saved from the very presence of sin upon entering into heaven.
Thomas Aquinas answered this question perfectly by placing the doctrine of predestination in its proper context: There are those of us who are predestined to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ (i.e., the first element of salvation), but what we do with it afterwards is up to us. In his teaching, not all of the “predestined” Paul wrote about will make it to heaven since the predestination he spoke of was about coming to a saving knowledge of the gospel. No one is predestined to persevere in the faith; that is completely up to us! With that said, it is not possible to persevere without God’s grace, and that we have free will to submit to God is also a product of His grace for having given us the ability to freely choose Him. So the whole process is truly grounded in grace alone.
Where we can agree is on the following: If you were to ask me, “If you die tonight how sure are you that you will go to heaven?”
My answer:
If I were to die right now, I believe I will go to heaven by virtue of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross for me. My faith and works did not earn this salvation, since both have failed me before. But God’s grace alone as revealed by Christ’s sacrifice is my only claim to heaven.
Notice that the question asks if I were to die right now when I can be certain of my fate, not at some distant time in the future. Final note: When I shed my Calvinistic beliefs in eternal security, I became more dependent on God’s grace, not less, as I had previously taken it for granted thanks to Calvin. Subsequently, my faith in Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior has grown thanks to Catholicism, not diminished.
I hope this helps, Ozzie. See you around the Kingdom, brother!
Captain Michael Trust
U.S. Army
Baghdad, Iraq
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SPOKENWORD
Guest
Jay ,you dont need to appoligize to me. and Yes we dont like joking about Gods Word . Read the book of Ephesians and find out how we should speak and act. May Christ speak to your heart and give you a teachable spirit.Sorry, but I found the statement quite humorous that anyone’s personal experience is absolute proof of God’s truth.
Shall I offer my own personal experience in rebuttal?
Protestants generally have no sense of humor about religion. Catholics, on the other hand, are joyful.
You know, of course, that I am an ex-Protestant. I write from personal knowledge.
May Christ minister to your heart,
JMJ Jay
.
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KLStevens
Guest
I am just about finished with another very interesting book,
Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic
by David B. Currie
Currie was raised a fundamentalist, his father was a preacher, he received a degree from Trinity International University and studied in the Masters of Divinity program at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He spent over 20 years of his life trying to bring people to Christ as an Evangelical.
The book explains why after 40 years as a devout evangelical he became Catholic. What is most beneficial about the book is it might help some of our Protestant brothers and sisters here to understand the similarities in what we are talking about.
He readily admits to the fact that the basis for many of his misunderstandings about Catholicism was his taking what he was taught and never actually approaching the actual doctrine of the church. He also explains quite nicely how the role of theologians is much different to an Evangelical/Fundamentalist than it is to a Catholic.
He addresses the debates that precede this post about faith alone or faith and works in a very clear way.
He also addresses with biblical and historical proof authority and the non-scriptural basis for sola scriptura and sola fide.
It is a wonderful read and I think if any non-Catholic is so secure in their faith, they should have no problem reading it–its in paperback and just over 200 pages. If anyone would like I copy, I will gladly send them one. Send me an email and I will pass it along to you.
The other very interesting thing he points out–and one that up until my reading the posts on this forum I had never even thought about–is how Evangelicals and Fundamentalists take the writings of Paul as the basis of their theology over and beyond the writings of Jesus in the Gospels.
Time and again I have watched our non-Catholic brothers and sisters give Paul’s writing as the basis for disregarding what is contained in both the Gospels and the other, equally valid books of the Bible.
The Catholic understanding of scripture does not work this way. All books need to be read in light of the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ, not only one of his followers.
The final thing I will say about this subject is that if you really want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, you need to read something by a Catholic. The misunderstandings I have encountered from non-Catholics are often laughable and most usually the result of just taking what is taught and not researching things for oneself.
What good does it do to read a book about Catholicism by a non-Catholic. If I want to learn how to cook I’m going to go a chef, not someone who once heard about a chef or tried to be one but failed!
Please, if you’d like me to send you this book or By What Authority? by Mark Shea I will gladly send it to you.
Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens
PS: I do not work for these publishing companies or anything like that, just think they are very informative reads.
Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic
by David B. Currie
Currie was raised a fundamentalist, his father was a preacher, he received a degree from Trinity International University and studied in the Masters of Divinity program at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He spent over 20 years of his life trying to bring people to Christ as an Evangelical.
The book explains why after 40 years as a devout evangelical he became Catholic. What is most beneficial about the book is it might help some of our Protestant brothers and sisters here to understand the similarities in what we are talking about.
He readily admits to the fact that the basis for many of his misunderstandings about Catholicism was his taking what he was taught and never actually approaching the actual doctrine of the church. He also explains quite nicely how the role of theologians is much different to an Evangelical/Fundamentalist than it is to a Catholic.
He addresses the debates that precede this post about faith alone or faith and works in a very clear way.
He also addresses with biblical and historical proof authority and the non-scriptural basis for sola scriptura and sola fide.
It is a wonderful read and I think if any non-Catholic is so secure in their faith, they should have no problem reading it–its in paperback and just over 200 pages. If anyone would like I copy, I will gladly send them one. Send me an email and I will pass it along to you.
The other very interesting thing he points out–and one that up until my reading the posts on this forum I had never even thought about–is how Evangelicals and Fundamentalists take the writings of Paul as the basis of their theology over and beyond the writings of Jesus in the Gospels.
Time and again I have watched our non-Catholic brothers and sisters give Paul’s writing as the basis for disregarding what is contained in both the Gospels and the other, equally valid books of the Bible.
The Catholic understanding of scripture does not work this way. All books need to be read in light of the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ, not only one of his followers.
The final thing I will say about this subject is that if you really want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, you need to read something by a Catholic. The misunderstandings I have encountered from non-Catholics are often laughable and most usually the result of just taking what is taught and not researching things for oneself.
What good does it do to read a book about Catholicism by a non-Catholic. If I want to learn how to cook I’m going to go a chef, not someone who once heard about a chef or tried to be one but failed!
Please, if you’d like me to send you this book or By What Authority? by Mark Shea I will gladly send it to you.
Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens
PS: I do not work for these publishing companies or anything like that, just think they are very informative reads.
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KLStevens
Guest
Dear Captain Michael Trust,
Thanks for your great post for Ozzie.
I know we’re all praying for him.
And I wanted to say a personal thanks to you for all your service.
May God Bless You and Keep You Safe!
Thanks for all that you are doing to keep us, Iraq and the rest of the world safe!
Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens
Thanks for your great post for Ozzie.
I know we’re all praying for him.
And I wanted to say a personal thanks to you for all your service.
May God Bless You and Keep You Safe!
Thanks for all that you are doing to keep us, Iraq and the rest of the world safe!
Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens
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exrc
Guest
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SPOKENWORD
Guest
Just wanted you to know that you and your comrades are in my daily prayers. I thank you for what you do. You and your comrades are the reason why I have my freedom in this great nation… May the good Lord keep you under His wings and cover you with His Feathers.God Bless.
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exrc
Guest
Katholikos]
In love exrc!
Is my own personal experience without any worth?
I would love to read it, because it would give me better understanding of your spiritual position.Shall I offer my own personal experience in rebuttal?
Yours as well!
In love exrc!
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WBB
Guest
Oh goodness. The Catechism in the hands of a Protestant can be a dangerous thing!
Perhaps a bigger chunk of that passage would explain things a bit better:
2017 The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.
2018 Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.
2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.
2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God’s mercy.
2021 Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.
2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.
2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.
2024 Sanctifying grace makes us “pleasing to God.” Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.
2025 We can have merit in God’s sight only because of God’s free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man’s collaboration. Man’s merit is due to God.
2026 The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God’s gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God.
2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.
2028 “All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity” (LG 40 § 2). “Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none” (St. Gregory of Nyssa, De vita Mos.: PG 44, 300D).
2029 “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me” (Mt 16:24).
Put simply, what this is saying is that we merit (i.e. achieve, are made worthy of) salvation by God alone through the passion of Christ. Not by anything we do. Read the whole passage and that is what is being said. You can’t pick and choose one sentence and say, “SO THERE! That is what the Catholic Church teaches!”
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exrc
Guest
Nice smokescreen!Oh goodness. The Catechism in the hands of a Protestant can be a dangerous thing!
Perhaps a bigger chunk of that passage would explain things a bit better:
2017 The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.
2018 Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.
2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.
2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God’s mercy.
2021 Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.
2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.
2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.
2024 Sanctifying grace makes us “pleasing to God.” Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.
2025 We can have merit in God’s sight only because of God’s free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man’s collaboration. Man’s merit is due to God.
2026 The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God’s gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God.
2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.
2028 “All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity” (LG 40 § 2). “Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none” (St. Gregory of Nyssa, De vita Mos.: PG 44, 300D).
2029 “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me” (Mt 16:24).
Put simply, what this is saying is that we merit (i.e. achieve, are made worthy of) salvation by God alone through the passion of Christ. Not by anything we do. Read the whole passage and that is what is being said. You can’t pick and choose one sentence and say, “SO THERE! That is what the Catholic Church teaches!”
Now explain the contradiction.
If I said that I never,never,never,never,never,never, had chocolate cake except once, would the amount of times I said never ,negate the fact that I did have chocolate cake?
Nice try!
Putting a bible in the hands of an RC is really scarry!
Bless you ! exrc
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WBB
Guest
Hey ex,
No smokescreen. That is what it means. No contradiction. We can only merit salvation because God offers it. That is what is being said. And the part about meriting it for others…Jesus said, “Let your light shine before others so that they see the good things you do and give glory to your Father in heaven.” In other words, if they see that you have salvation (which you will manifest that salvation by the good works that you do…not earn it…manifest that you have been saved by God), they will be inclined to respond to God’s call to them.
And were it not for the Catholic Church, the bible wouldn’t be in your hands to begin with. (And before you get caught up in your denial of that fact, I have history on my side to support me.)
You took one fragment of a sentence and drew a conclusion rather than look at the section as a whole which seeks to explain in further detail what is meant my we merit salvation simply by responding to God’s free offer. You protestants love to do this. Rather than take the bible or the catechism as a whole, you take one minute fragment, put it in your own context, and then say, “See, the Catholic Church is wrong.” It is like you can’t see the forest for looking at the trees.
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