I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[Ozzie]

…Continued from previous post:

Paul goes on to say in Rom. 4:2-3: “For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? ‘And Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.’” And, “But to the one who does not work, but BELIEVERS IN HIM who JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY, his FAITH is reckoned as righteousness”’ (Rom. 4:5).

Now, James in 2:24 does not teach contrary to all that Paul declares concerning justification and faith in Romans chapters three and four. James’ conclusion in verse twenty-four is prefaced by verse eighteen, which is the prelude for his argument. “But someone may SAY, 'You have faith and I have works; SHOW ME you faith without the works, and I will SHOW YOU my faith BY my works.” James is not arguing, as the RC apologist contends, that faith PLUS works justifies, and therefore contradicting Paul. James rightly refutes that the true FAITH by which God justifies (dorean), “without cause,” is evidenced by works. This in contradistinction to a mere “said faith” which can produce no evidence. So, one must ask, in reference to verse eighteen, is it possible to have a demonstration of faith without works? Absolutely not. As James points out, both Abraham and Rabab demonstrated their faith BY their works, but their works, however, did not, nor could not, in any way justify them. In fact, Abraham was justified by God long before Isaac was even born (Gen. 15:6). When James says that the Scripture, “And Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” was “fulfilled” (Gen. 15:6; Ja. 2:23), he means that the righteousness reckoned to Abraham by God, at the time of personal belief, was demonstrated decades later by his willingness to offer up his son. And by that obedient act his faith was perfected - not his justification (see vs. 22). Contrary to the erroneous RC doctrine of progressive justification.

Others on this thread keep parroting Christ’s words in MAT 7:21 “Not everyone who SAYS to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.” But this, also, is a “said faith,” of the kind James exposes. They merely SAY to Him, “Lord, lord…” And although they claim to have done many “works,” in the power of His name, inwardly they never truly believed in Him and therefore were never known by Him. Then who can be saved? Jesus actually answers this in John 6: *“They said therefore to Him, What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” *Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you BELIEVE IN HIM whom He has sent” (vs. 29).

Michael, it is God Himself who justifies (dorean),* without cause*, giftwise, the one who has faith in Jesus, because of Christ’s redemption work for us on the cross (Rom. 3:24, 26). Let me ask you, are you that ungodly man whom God Himself has forever justified through faith in Christ?

Keep safe over there, Captain! You can trust in Christ alone for the assurance of your salvation/justification. They’re given to you “dorean,” without cause on your part, because of Christ. The cross is vacant, the tomb is empty my friend: *“For He was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.” *This is absolute, infinite truth.

See you around the Kingdom, brother!

In respect to my new identity in Christ Jesus, He has already delivered me from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, IN WHOM I HAVE redemption the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:14-14).

 

[WBB]

Ozzie:

Justification is an integral part of salvation. They can not be disassociated. There is no salvation apart from justification.

The same can be said for faith and works. They cannot be disassociated. Once you have “been saved” through faith, you have to do the works (in that order, of course ).

 

[exrc]

KLStevens:

Lisa,

For the record what this man is offering you here is a thoroughly debunked misunderstanding and if delibrate is shameful!

Gloss you way through ANY book about the Eucharist and you will find it is in NO WAY a re-sacrifice.

KLStevens,

Let’s create a hypothetical scenariK?

I’m an RC who has just committed a “Mortal sin”. Uh Oh! I’m going to hell if I die this very minute. I must find an RC priest and confess my sin, so I can be absolved. But wait! If I was justified at water baptism as an infant, and Christs merits on the cross were applied to me there, what further sacrifice can justify me? What a dilemma! I know ! I will say 3 gazillion our fathers and 90 gazillion hail marys, of course more to Mary because she is more understanding, and has the inside track, nudge, nudge, wink wink! Oh No, the bible says in Hebrews 9:22 that there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood (Death). But I thought that Jesus paid for all of mankinds sins at the cross with his once for all sacrifice? No matter, I shall trudge on, the RCC is the one true church!! They’re teachings are infallable!! Onward to Mass! I will surely be once again justified after the unbloody sacrifice. Wait! how does this square with Hebrews 9:22. There must be a real a real death once again right? If it’s not real death then it cannot forgive sin. However, if it is, a real death, it can forgive sin. Must Jesus continue to die? Is the mass a real sacrifice? Hebrews 10:12 says, but Jesus, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God.

I guess I must believe that the RCC is wrong, I cannot lose my salvation.

If the mass is a real sacrifice then it can forgive sin.

If it’s not, it has no power over sin.

Make your choice.

No matter what you say, you are caught by your own words!
Because they both contradict scripture.

In love, Ignoramus Dan

 

[WBB]

exrc:

KLStevens,

Let’s create a hypothetical scenariK?

I’m an RC who has just committed a “Mortal sin”. Uh Oh! I’m going to hell if I die this very minute. I must find an RC priest and confess my sin, so I can be absolved. But wait! If I was justified at water baptism as an infant, and Christs merits on the cross were applied to me there, what further sacrifice can justify me? What a dilemma! I know ! I will say 3 gazillion our fathers and 90 gazillion hail marys, of course more to Mary because she is more understanding, and has the inside track, nudge, nudge, wink wink! Oh No, the bible says in Hebrews 9:22 that there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood (Death). But I thought that Jesus paid for all of mankinds sins at the cross with his once for all sacrifice? No matter, I shall trudge on, the RCC is the one true church!! They’re teachings are infallable!! Onward to Mass! I will surely be once again justified after the unbloody sacrifice. Wait! how does this square with Hebrews 9:22. There must be a real a real death once again right? If it’s not real death then it cannot forgive sin. However, if it is, a real death, it can forgive sin. Must Jesus continue to die? Is the mass a real sacrifice? Hebrews 10:12 says, but Jesus, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God.

I guess I must believe that the RCC is wrong, I cannot lose my salvation.

If the mass is a real sacrifice then it can forgive sin.

If it’s not, it has no power over sin.

Make your choice.

No matter what you say, you are caught by your own words!
Because they both contradict scripture.

In love, Ignoramus Dan

He doesn’t understand at LEAST 2 things…1)the doctrine of Original Sin and Baptism and 2) the meaning of the sacrifice of the Mass. This makes his “hypothetical scenario” an impossible one. None of the things mentioned are accurate.

 

[exrc]

WBB:

He doesn’t understand at LEAST 2 things…1)the doctrine of Original Sin and Baptism and 2) the meaning of the sacrifice of the Mass. This makes his “hypothetical scenario” an impossible one. None of the things mentioned are accurate.

WBB,

Don’t worry, the spin doctors are on their way.

However , I would get out now, while the gettins good!

 

[Philthy]

exrc:

KLStevens,

Let’s create a hypothetical scenariK?

I’m an RC who has just committed a “Mortal sin”. Uh Oh! I’m going to hell if I die this very minute. I must find an RC priest and confess my sin, so I can be absolved. But wait! If I was justified at water baptism as an infant, and Christs merits on the cross were applied to me there, what further sacrifice can justify me? What a dilemma! I know ! I will say 3 gazillion our fathers and 90 gazillion hail marys, of course more to Mary because she is more understanding, and has the inside track, nudge, nudge, wink wink! Oh No, the bible says in Hebrews 9:22 that there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood (Death). But I thought that Jesus paid for all of mankinds sins at the cross with his once for all sacrifice? No matter, I shall trudge on, the RCC is the one true church!! They’re teachings are infallable!! Onward to Mass! I will surely be once again justified after the unbloody sacrifice. Wait! how does this square with Hebrews 9:22. There must be a real a real death once again right? If it’s not real death then it cannot forgive sin. However, if it is, a real death, it can forgive sin. Must Jesus continue to die? Is the mass a real sacrifice? Hebrews 10:12 says, but Jesus, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God.

I guess I must believe that the RCC is wrong, I cannot lose my salvation.

If the mass is a real sacrifice then it can forgive sin.

If it’s not, it has no power over sin.

Make your choice.

No matter what you say, you are caught by your own words!
Because they both contradict scripture.

In love, Ignoramus Dan

I have just one question for you exrc: Do you or do you not feel the need to continue to confess your sins for gorgiveness? Again, the choices are: " I do continue to confess my sins for forgiveness "or “No, I do not need to continue to confess my sins”. Please don’t ignore me.

Phil

 

[JKirkLVNV]

trustmc:

Hello Ozzie,

Good point about that comment on being “saved by faith.” I believe the writer merely mispoke though. I’ve heard even bible-literate evenagelicals make the same mistake, which is easy to do since Christ, on more than one occassion, proclaims to the recipients of His miracles: “Your faith has saved you.”

What faith in Christ actually saves us from is our earthly or temporal condition. For instance, the paralytic was saved from paralysis, the blind man from blindness, the demoniac from demons, etc. These are temporal conditions brought about by our broken humanity in a fallen creation that requires the faith of a second or third party to be saved. (It was Mary’s and Martha’s faith that saved their brother, Lazarus, from death.) And it was only after performing such miracles that Christ proclaimed that faith saves, but never within the context of eternal salvation.

Yes, only grace saves us from condemnation, but faith and works together justify us before God (James 2:24). In fact it is only in this verse that the term “faith alone” is used in the entire bible. And the context clearly contradicts the protestant doctrine of sola fides – or, at best, exposes the protestants’ use of anti-biblical language to formulate the doctrine of justification.

Where you and I can agree is that grace is always and only the grounds for our salvation. But faith and works are equally the marks of our salvation too.

I pray this helps. See you around the Kingdom, brother!

Captain Michael Trust
U.S. Army
Baghdad, Iraq

I’ve no idea what you do in Iraq, but your posts here are better than most homilies. Ever considered the priesthood?

 

[Ozzie]

SPOKENWORD:

To Ozzie,a brother in Christ. I dont believe in once saved always saved.Yes salvation is a gift given to me but it only becomes a gift if I receive it and use it.

My dear brother, a “gift” does not BECOME a gift only when someone actually receives it and then uses it. Did you ever say to someone, “I have a gift for you?” Did that person then retort saying, “No you don’t, not until I decide to receive it, and even then, not until I put it to good use, do you have a gift for me!” No, a gift is a gift

Scripture does not reveal that God requires of us to *receive *the gift of salvation (Eph. 2:8-9). Nor does He ever ask us to receive the free gift of justification (Rom. 3:24), or the gift of eternal life (Rom. 6:23). These are gifts He bestows upon the believer, at the moment of personal belief in His Son. When you receive Jesus Christ by faith you are given these gifts. They do not materialize only if you want to “believe” he has given them to you. They’re gifts that are given out of the pleasure of His infinite grace, to the glory of Christ, which He is free to bestow upon us because of Christ’s work for us (speaking of this please read my post (#655 & #656) to **trustmc **regarding the Greek work “dorean,” translated “gift”). If they are bestowed only after you have proven yourself by “finishing the race,” then they’re not “gifts” at all, but rewards given only to those who persevere and cross the finish line. And God has deceived us by calling them “gifts.”

But for me, I’ll take God at His word. Somehow I feel much safer than trusting the opinions of men, whether clergy or layman, pastor or priest, Pope or prelate.

You know, actually, I’m not the one to whom you should be directing your opinion. And it does qualified as an “opinion” because your statement to me was based not on Scripture but on your own personal belief. You need to tell God, not me, that He has no right to bestow on you, immediately upon belief, any eternal gifts based on Christ’s infinite work on the cross. Tell Him that salvation, justification and eternal life are not immediate gifts procured by the death of His beloved Son, but have only the potential of *“becoming” *gifts after you have proven yourself to Him by “finishing the race.” Who is He to be so generous in Christ, who is He to be so gracious toward you? Right? Certainly Christ’s work on the cross has infinite value, but the value of your effort to “finish the race” must be considered of great value, as well. That’s only reasonable! Let me know His response.
My brother, salvation, justification and eternal life are revealed in God’s written Word as free gifts bestowed on the believer at the time of personal belief: “have been saved,” having been justified," have eternal life." They are not GIFT CERTIFICATES with the rules written on the backside, redeemable by you at the end of your life (that is, if you qualify according to the rules).

Yours is a works “gospel.”

 

[Ozzie]

WBB:

The same can be said for faith and works. They cannot be disassociated. Once you have “been saved” through faith, you have to do the works (in that order, of course ).

According to Rome’s “gospel,” yes. But then, as you said in a previous post, Rome doesn’t depend on the Bible for its doctrines. And I would add, for it "gospel, either.

 

[Ozzie]

Philthy:

Hey Ozzie-
First, this is not the first time that you have used this quote to justify your claim that faith (apart from anything else) in Jesus is all that is required for salvation. However, this verse explicitly states 2 conditions for salvation:
1)“he who hears my word” and
2) believes in HIM WHO SENT ME

The first conditional is ambiguous in that is it referring to the Word or to people who actually listened to Jesus personally.
The second condition specifically speaks to faith in the FATHER - not Jesus. I’ve pointed this out to you before but you seem stuck on extracting “faith alone in Jesus gives me instantaneous, complete and permanent salvation” It simply doesn’t say that.

Yes, it does say that, Phil. Have you ever heard the message of Christ’s cross? Listen to a Protestant radio station some time, I guarantee at some point you’ll hear it, and that’s His word. Do you not believe the testimony in Scripture that "*God *(the Father) so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son…"? If you do, then you believe Him who sent Him. The one who believes both HAS eternal life. You simply WON’T believe it. But that’s your problem. Suggestion: I wouldn’t try standing before God with the excuse that that verse was too ambiguous.

I know you’re quite confident in your beliefs, which is good. But you really should consider some of what has been compassionately expressed to you by the many people on this post. If you do, you’ll realize, at least, that there is more than one intellectually valid interpretation.

Scripture can have many secondary applications, but those applications are first subordinate to a true interpretation, of which there can be only one. And the verse in question is not at all difficult to interpret. But it is hard for the legalist and the religious to swallow. To them pure grace is always repugnant.

 

[KLStevens]

exrc:

KLStevens,

Let’s create a hypothetical scenariK?

I’m an RC who has just committed a “Mortal sin”. Uh Oh! I’m going to hell if I die this very minute. I must find an RC priest and confess my sin, so I can be absolved. But wait! If I was justified at water baptism as an infant, and Christs merits on the cross were applied to me there, what further sacrifice can justify me? What a dilemma! I know ! I will say 3 gazillion our fathers and 90 gazillion hail marys, of course more to Mary because she is more understanding, and has the inside track, nudge, nudge, wink wink! Oh No, the bible says in Hebrews 9:22 that there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood (Death). But I thought that Jesus paid for all of mankinds sins at the cross with his once for all sacrifice? No matter, I shall trudge on, the RCC is the one true church!! They’re teachings are infallable!! Onward to Mass! I will surely be once again justified after the unbloody sacrifice. Wait! how does this square with Hebrews 9:22. There must be a real a real death once again right? If it’s not real death then it cannot forgive sin. However, if it is, a real death, it can forgive sin. Must Jesus continue to die? Is the mass a real sacrifice? Hebrews 10:12 says, but Jesus, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God.

Quite honestly Dan, I feel for you. I feel so sorry for you.

Pardon me here but I refuse to mince words any longer:

You are obviously so blinded by your own hatred of Jesus’ Church that you refuse to loose your will for that of Our Lord.

You are so far WRONG and MISTAKEN here and SO STUBBORN in your beliefs that there is no helping you until you decide to throw away your Roman prejudice and open your heart.

I have never in my life heard such a ridiculous scenario as you have proposed! I have actually read about people who think like you in books but I never did think anyone could willfully remain so ignorant. Especially when the answers you supposedly seek are very easily found–not to mention many have been provided for you here in this forum. Your misunderstandings could very easily be cleared but obviously you refuse.

Again, we will plug along and try to help you. But I have come to believe you do not really seek help, just a stroke of your ego.

By the way, Jesus’ Catholic Church NEVER says someone is in hell. How can you?

Also I suggest you pick up “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” by Karl Keating. I think it may really help you. I will send you a copy if you’d like one. Contact me, I’d really like to help.

You are not doing yourself or us any favors by wallowing in your hatred and misunderstandings while refusing to learn the truth about Jesus’ Catholic Church.

May the Lord Open Your Eyes, Open Your Ears and Open Your Heart. His Catholic Church will be here for you always.

Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens

 

[KLStevens]

Ozzie:

Scripture can have many secondary applications, but those applications are first subordinate to a true interpretation, of which there can be only one.

Amazing thing here Ozzie is that for your interpretation to be the true one, that means for 1500+ years no Christian knew it!

What happened to all those Christians? They must have never been saved, huh?

Even the Apostles and the students of the Apostles must have never been saved for your statement to be “true” since your interpretation of Scripture came after the Reformation–from people with no connection to the Apostolic teachings safeguarded by Jesus’ Church.

I just can not accept that.

Jesus knew what he was doing when he chose Peter and the Apostles. He didn’t leave his Church alone. He left it to endure for all time. And for the first 1500 years, every Christian new Jesus’ Church was not an invisible Church of disconnected believers believing in isolation. Jesus’ Church is and will always have its foundation in His Catholic Church.

Your interpretation of Scripture is your interpretation of Scripture.
As such it is not an authoritative interpretation of Scripture as far as I am concerned. And since it doesn’t square with the 2000 years of Scriputre interpretation provided by Jesus’ Catholic Church, I can not accept it as the “true” interpretation.

You, I and everyone here knows that many great Christians will disagree with your interpretations.

And quite frankly, your interpretation can very well be wrong. Please do not allow yourself to be so presumptuous as to forget that simple fact. You can be wrong–you are only human.

Humbled By My Humanity–Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens

*** PS: I think it would help your earlier discussion about Salvation and Justification if you realize that is it also a matter of how Protestants and Catholics define these two words. Technically our definitions are different and this may be adding to the confusion.
Mark Shea addresses this on his book: By What Authority? in his chapter about Salvation, Chapter 7, pp. 109-141.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

exrc and Ozzie et. al,

I invite you to the Catholic Church. You are most welcome. Experience the love of God in the Catholic Church.

exrc, I invite you to come back to the Catholic Church.

All, consider uniting with the Catholic Church to be with Jesus. He loves you and He has established means for you to unite with Him.

Come to communion. Jesus is truly and really present. There is no longer bread but God Himself! Surrender yourself to the love of Jesus!

I invite you, I welcome you!

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

exrc, what do you say? Will you come back? I don’t know if you had a bad experience or whatever else, but I sincerely invite you to come back home. Come back to the love of Jesus! You are most welcome and what a joy it would be to have you back!

 

[WBB]

Ozzie:

According to Rome’s “gospel,” yes. But then, as you said in a previous post, Rome doesn’t depend on the Bible for its doctrines. And I would add, for it "gospel, either.

That is not what I said. Don’t twist my words. I said we don’t use the Bible alone to define the faith of the Church…and neither did the Apostles…especially considering the bible as we know it didn’t exist at that time. And neither did anyone else until the Protestant Reformation 500 years ago. Furthermore, the Apostles didn’t use the bible for their gospel either because 1) it wasn’t in existence as we know it today, and 2) they had Jesus who taught them far more than is written in any book…John 21:25 “There was much else that Jesus did; if it were written down in detail, I do not suppose the world itself would hold all the books that would be written.”

 

[Ozzie]

KLStevens:

Amazing thing here Ozzie is that for your interpretation to be the true one, that means for 1500+ years no Christian knew it!

I guess when Paul wrote his letters to the Corinthians, the Romans, the Ephesians, the Galatians, etc., they sat on a shelves and collected dust until Rome formed its infallible “Magesterium.” And then, and only then, could anyone ever be able to understand such mysterious letters. I wonder if the “Magesterium” wears some sort of special glasses that gives it its supernatural powers of infallibility. How do you not know that when I went to Rome last year I didn’t just smuggle one of those pair of glasses out ? Actually I got them from a rogue Bishop who wanted to get the power of infallibility out to the masses.

Even the Apostles and the students of the Apostles must have never been saved for your statement to be “true” since your interpretation of Scripture came after the Reformation–from people with no connection to the Apostolic teachings safeguarded by Jesus’ Church.

What part of *“believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved” *do you not agree with? Or is it just the fact that I teach the sufficiency of God’s infinite grace to save forever those who draw near to Him through faith in Christ alone? If you just can’t accept that, then you just have a different gospel than what is simply and clearly revealed in Scripture, and can be easily understood by anyone who can read, even without those “glasses” (wink).

 

[ncgolf]

Ozzie,
I find it disingeniune of you to say that reading and discerning what the Bible says is easy. I would say that it is rather difficult, people know this deals with their eternal life and probably work hard at understanding. I guess what you are saying is each of us is our own Pope, we are subject to our own interpretation. If that is true why or how can you argue with anyone else’s interpretation. Anyone’s who reads and tries to understand what the Bible says should be thought of as a divinely inspired authority on the subject. What makes your interpretation any better than anyone else’s … lots of degrees and such dont do much for making your interpretation any better … I would say there is only one way yours can be any better than anyone else’s. You are infalliable. We would have a guarantee that yours is the Truth.

Last time I read the Bible I did not read anything that said ‘Trust Ozzie’.

 

[exrc]

Philthy:

I have just one question for you exrc: Do you or do you not feel the need to continue to confess your sins for gorgiveness? Again, the choices are: " I do continue to confess my sins for forgiveness "or “No, I do not need to continue to confess my sins”. Please don’t ignore me.

Phil

To be rejustified? No

To maintain communication with my Father? Yes

In love exrc

 

[RBushlow]

exrc:

Don’t worry, the spin doctors are on their way.
However , I would get out now, while the gettins good!

Please pray that the Holy Spirit opens your eyes before it’s too late.

May the peace of Christ, the love of God the Father, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

 

[RBushlow]

Ozzie:

I wonder if the “Magesterium” wears some sort of special glasses that gives it its supernatural powers of infallibility. How do you not know that when I went to Rome last year I didn’t just smuggle one of those pair of glasses out? .

Actually it’s the guidance of the Holy Spirit that has been guiding the Church for nearly 2000 years. The alternative is that Christ left His Church an orphan until the 16th century. I don’t know how you can get around that. May God bless you and open your eyes. Please do not harden your heart; ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit and He will lead you into the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

Let us go now to love and serve the Lord Jesus Christ.