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Stephen-Maguire
Guest
catholictradition.org/true-church.htm
No Salvation outside the Catholic Church. catholictradition.org/salvation.htm
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No Salvation outside the Catholic Church. catholictradition.org/salvation.htm
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SPOKENWORD
Guest
Yes ,brother Ozzie Gods Gift is a Gift. Nothing I did to recieve it. Its only by His Grace,Praise God. In order for me to recieve it I have to accept it,because I could reject it and then not recieve it.If I gave you a gift wrapped in a box and you put it under your bed and never opened it,what is its value to you.Yes it was a gift but served no purpose because you did nothing with it. Its the same way when Christ gives us His gift of salvation. What purpose would it serve if we did nothing with it. Its by this Gift that I can do works as a sign of Gods love for me. I will never earn my salvation. All my works will be tested before the Lord and everything that I did to glorify His name will be accepted and rewards will be waiting for me in the Kingdom. Everything that was done out of my flesh gets burnt and the glory to myself was already given down here on earth. God Bless brother as Gods Spirit moves on our hearts into His Truth.
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
Hi Ozzie,
Be respectful of the Catholic Church.
Ozzie:
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, ***either by an oral statement ***or by a letter of ours.
1 Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel did not come to you in word alone, but also in power and in the holy Spirit and (with) much conviction. You know what sort of people we were (among) you for your sake.
**1 Thessalonians 1:6 **And you became imitators of us…
Phiippians 4:9 Keep on doing what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me.
**Acts 15:24 **Since we have heard that some of our number (who went out) without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind…
Be respectful of the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church is the continuation of the apostolic Church of which Paul was and is now in Heaven a member.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, ***either by an oral statement ***or by a letter of ours.
1 Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel did not come to you in word alone, but also in power and in the holy Spirit and (with) much conviction. You know what sort of people we were (among) you for your sake.
**1 Thessalonians 1:6 **And you became imitators of us…
Phiippians 4:9 Keep on doing what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me.
**Acts 15:24 **Since we have heard that some of our number (who went out) without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind…
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Cubby
Guest
A classic ozzie post:
Quote:
See you around the Kingdom, brother!
In respect to my new identity in Christ Jesus, He has already delivered me from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, IN WHOM I HAVE redemption the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:14-14).
End Classic Post
Thank you, Ozzie for directing me to chapter 1 of Colossians, where St. Paul encourages us to persevere in the faith. If we continue to read that chapter of Colossasians we will find the following verses (21-23):
21 And you who once were alienated and hostile in mind because of evil deeds 22 he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through his death, to present you holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister.
We’ll see you around the Kingdom, thanks to the redemptive grace from Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, if you persevere!
Peace & Prayers,
Cubby
Quote:
See you around the Kingdom, brother!
In respect to my new identity in Christ Jesus, He has already delivered me from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, IN WHOM I HAVE redemption the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:14-14).
End Classic Post
Thank you, Ozzie for directing me to chapter 1 of Colossians, where St. Paul encourages us to persevere in the faith. If we continue to read that chapter of Colossasians we will find the following verses (21-23):
21 And you who once were alienated and hostile in mind because of evil deeds 22 he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through his death, to present you holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister.
We’ll see you around the Kingdom, thanks to the redemptive grace from Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, if you persevere!
Peace & Prayers,
Cubby
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
“maintain communication”?
Confession is more than maintaining communication. In the Lord’s prayer we say “Forgive us our trespasses”. This means we need God’s forgiveness.
exrc, what do you say, will you come back home? We welcome you! We invite you! Come back to the presence of Jesus in mass! I invite you to visit your local priest and experience the joy of returning to us sinners who hope to work out our salvation. Come back!
Look forward to the beauty of Christmas mass!
“Christmas” means “mass of Christ”.
Greg
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Cubby
Guest
Amen on the welcoming spirit Greg!
I’ll keep exrc in prayer, as well as ozzie and lisa, and spoken word.
The Holy Roman Catholic Church is the fullness of the faith - evidenced even by some recent archeological digs which revealed, among other things, a 2nd century bust of St. Peter with the words “Peter, pray for us” inscribed upon it.
St. Peter - pray for us and those we witness to.
Cubby
PS: Archeologists have yet to find the “OSAS” stone.
I’ll keep exrc in prayer, as well as ozzie and lisa, and spoken word.
The Holy Roman Catholic Church is the fullness of the faith - evidenced even by some recent archeological digs which revealed, among other things, a 2nd century bust of St. Peter with the words “Peter, pray for us” inscribed upon it.
St. Peter - pray for us and those we witness to.
Cubby
PS: Archeologists have yet to find the “OSAS” stone.
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Philthy
Guest
Thanks exrc: you have answered “yes” to the question of needing to confess your sins for forgiveness. And, sensing a trap where none was intended, you felt the need to qualify your answer - no problem. The fact remains, however, that you do seek forgiveness for your sins through confession. Now we can understand each other a little better. I like to think of myself as a patient individual, so Im happy enough if we proceed one or two, clear questions at a time - I hope that doesn’t bore you.
My next question is this: Is there any relationship between your current and future sins being forgiven through confession and Christ’s death and resurrection? Yes or No first! A BRIEF explanation may follow…
You implied in your answer that if you fail to confess your sins you can’t “maintain communion” with the Father. So my next question is…
What is the consequence of not being in communion with the Father (ie, of not confessing your sins), and what happens if you get killed in this state? Choose from the following please:
A) There is an eternal consequence
B) There is not an eternal consequence
Once again I want it brief, and to the point. This is fun! No lengthy explanations.
Methodically yours in Christ,
Phil
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KLStevens
Guest
Your forgeting something very important here Ozzie:
***Paul sent those letters to those communities AFTER he had already taught them–orally. The written word of Paul needs to be read with the knowledge of that early oral teachings–not contained in his letters.
By you disregarding all the knowledge of Jesus’ Catholic Church you are only receiving half of the deposit of faith.
Sorry buddy, you can not tell me Paul’s letters are the full deposit of faith.
And once again for foresake the Word of Our Lord for the teachings of Paul. When there seems to be a conflict–you disregard Our Lord and side with Paul.
And one other important point that all bible scholars will agree to:
NONE OF PAUL’S LETTERS WERE WRITTEN BY PAUL TO BE COLLECTED AS THE ONLY OFFICIAL TEACHINGS about Jesus. They were written to address specific issues at specific communities, for those communities–not with you or I in mind!
His letters were clearly written to very specific communities who were having problems following the teachings–ORAL–he had originally gave them.
And since they were written long before fax and photocopiers, we cknow they were not duplicated and sent out to all the other Churches in the known word to add to their collection immediately! It obviously took time. Also since people in these different communities needed help also, it is safe to say, it took quite a while for Paul’s writings to circulate.
Keep your blinders on for as long as you want.
You will never escape the fact that before Paul wrote these letters to these communities, he had already helped establish them and had taught them ORALLY–and these teachings can not be found outside Jesus’ Catholic Church.
You take Paul’s review of key points as all Paul needed to teach. This is just not the case.
Jesus never followed Scripture alone (read Scripture, He follows extra-biblical tradition), why would He establish a Church–leave them without an official Scripture for 360+ years only to then require that Scripture be all His followers needed! Let alone that Paul’s letters should take priority over anything else. Oh yes, and He forgot to establish a Church that told anyone this until the Reformers came along…
Scripture should be read in light of Jesus’ teaching, not Paul’s!
You can continue to put Paul as your final say, but I will always prefer the Word Of Our Lord and read Paul and the rest of Scripture in light of those teachings.
Jesus established a Church, His Church–guided by the Holy Spirit–eventually gave us Scriputure. This is fact.
Unless your working off a very bad translation or something I assume we have the same Gospel. And I will not and do not read Scripture in light of 16th century Protestant theology like you do.
Don’t fool yourself into thinking YOU were suddenly given Scripture goggles when you were saved! There are an infinite number of interpretations and this is why Jesus left us an authority with which to interpret Scripture. Again I will kindly add–you are not that authority.
Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens
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KLStevens
Guest
I agree that this is one line of Scripture and many a post here shows you that Scripture also says much more is needed to be saved.
You can choose to read all of Scripture in light of that one line but I won’t.
And it also doesn’t say anything about once saved you’d be able to understand Scripture correctly. What you’re experiencing is not unique–I’d call it; “Once I figure out what I believe I will use Scripture to support it.”
How do you think we got: Mormonism, Christian Science, The Churches of Christ and many others? Men and women read Scripture in light of their personal theology–and they found support. This happens because they do not respect the Apostolic Authority contained by succession in Jesus’ Roman Catholic Church.
You realize there are many people who call themselves Christian and believe they are just as saved as you find support for gay marriage, homosexuality, abortion, and polygamy in Scripture and they too believe they are doing the work of the Lord…
Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens
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Philthy
Guest
I just realized that I misunderstood your answer to my original question. I now read that you confess your sins to maintain “communication” with the Father. That sounds like prayer to me, but nonetheless, still answer question #2 by substituting “communication” in for communion - thatnksThanks exrc: you have answered “yes” to the question of needing to confess your sins for forgiveness. And, sensing a trap where none was intended, you felt the need to qualify your answer - no problem. The fact remains, however, that you do seek forgiveness for your sins through confession. Now we can understand each other a little better. I like to think of myself as a patient individual, so Im happy enough if we proceed one or two, clear questions at a time - I hope that doesn’t bore you.
My next question is this: Is there any relationship between your current and future sins being forgiven through confession and Christ’s death and resurrection? Yes or No first! A BRIEF explanation may follow…
You implied in your answer that if you fail to confess your sins you can’t “maintain communion” with the Father. So my next question is…
What is the consequence of not being in communion with the Father (ie, of not confessing your sins), and what happens if you get killed in this state? Choose from the following please:
A) There is an eternal consequence
B) There is not an eternal consequence
Once again I want it brief, and to the point. This is fun! No lengthy explanations.
Methodically yours in Christ,
Phil
Phil
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SPOKENWORD
Guest
Thanks Cubby,Please do keep me in your prayers dayly. The Word of God does say that we are to pray for one another.Again thanks for you thoughtfulness.
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Pax
Guest
Dan,
Please use scripture only and go directly to the issue of repentence to demonstrate the two points that you just made.
C
Cubby
Guest
From Spokenword: Thanks Cubby,Please do keep me in your prayers dayly. The Word of God does say that we are to pray for one another.Again thanks for you thoughtfulness.
As St. Paul wrote to the first European Christians (Acts 16:9-40) in Philippi from prison (Phil 1: 7,13,14,17):
Paul said that not being intimidated in any way by our opponents is proof of our salvation (1:28). Also, he instructs the new believers to work out their salvation with fear and trembling (2:12) Then Paul said that they should “hold on to the word of life” (2:16) and then Paul instructs them (and us) to, by prayer and petition, and with thanksgiving to God, to make our requests known to God and in return He gives peace that passes understanding which guards our hearts and minds in Christ Jesus (4:6-7)
My prayer for all of my protestant brothers and sisters is that you experience the truth and beauty of the Holy Roman Catholic Church - and experience the more abundant life of living in the fullness of the faith. As the first bishop of Rome, I ask St. Peter to pray with me on your behalf. Come home!
OK. I’m off to RCIA - if you’re not familiar with RCIA, then I hope you look it up!
Peace,
Cubby
As St. Paul wrote to the first European Christians (Acts 16:9-40) in Philippi from prison (Phil 1: 7,13,14,17):
Paul said that not being intimidated in any way by our opponents is proof of our salvation (1:28). Also, he instructs the new believers to work out their salvation with fear and trembling (2:12) Then Paul said that they should “hold on to the word of life” (2:16) and then Paul instructs them (and us) to, by prayer and petition, and with thanksgiving to God, to make our requests known to God and in return He gives peace that passes understanding which guards our hearts and minds in Christ Jesus (4:6-7)
My prayer for all of my protestant brothers and sisters is that you experience the truth and beauty of the Holy Roman Catholic Church - and experience the more abundant life of living in the fullness of the faith. As the first bishop of Rome, I ask St. Peter to pray with me on your behalf. Come home!
OK. I’m off to RCIA - if you’re not familiar with RCIA, then I hope you look it up!
Peace,
Cubby
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Pax
Guest
Ozzie said:
Ozzie,
You are once again engaging in sophistry and are attempting to create a nonexistent context in an attempt to change the clear words of James which are “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
Earlier when I stated that you not only pull verses out of context but that you also manufacture context to your own liking, you claimed that I offered no proof. After the above infraction I could stand it no longer and feel compelled to expose some other instances where you have done this same thing. Some examples are as follows:
In your post #256 you attempted to thwart the clear meaning of James 2:29 by suggesting that “James was writing to the Jew who took pride in being a monotheist” and not to Christians. In my post #262 I had to give you the correct context and told you that, “James is talking to all of us. The fact that “God is one” is a primary article of Christianity and not just Judaism. This same basic point is made in Mark 12:29, 1 Corinthians 8:4-6, and Ephesians 4:6. The teaching of “God is one” is an important component of the teaching on the Trinity. The most indicative verse concerning whom James is talking to is 2:1 where James says, “MY BRETHREN, show no partiality as you hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.”
cont. on next post
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Pax
Guest
cont. from prior post
In another set of posts I argued the need for obedience and pointed out that a Christian can go to hell for committing serious sin. I quoted 5:5-6 which says that no fornicator etc. has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. I rightly pointed out that Paul was speaking to Christians. Because of your doctrinal predisposition you once again responded with a fabricated context in an attempt to refute the clear teaching in Eph 5:5-6. In your post # 191 you said, “He is writing this TO Christians, but he is not writing this ABOUT Christians (def. “true believers”). True believers are never referred to as “sons of disobedience” in Scripture. What you lack, my friend, is a healthy, Biblical understanding of the believer’s new identity in Christ.”
I then responded in my post # 196 with the following: “You claim that 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 is “to” Christians but not “about” Christians. You believe it to be a reference only to the unsaved. Again, you could not be more wrong. You either did not read verse eight and the preceding verses or you are attempting some slight of hand to prove your erroneous position. Verse eight says, “But you yourselves wrong and defraud, and that even your own brethren.” Paul is indeed talking “about” Christians that have been falling back into the darkness of sin.”
I could go on and on about your deceptive use of scripture and redefinition of the context but the above examples should be sufficient. You are desperate in your efforts to defend your doctrines that do not stand up to the scrutiny of scripture but you remain undaunted in your efforts to deny the truth that stares you in the face.
In another set of posts I argued the need for obedience and pointed out that a Christian can go to hell for committing serious sin. I quoted 5:5-6 which says that no fornicator etc. has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. I rightly pointed out that Paul was speaking to Christians. Because of your doctrinal predisposition you once again responded with a fabricated context in an attempt to refute the clear teaching in Eph 5:5-6. In your post # 191 you said, “He is writing this TO Christians, but he is not writing this ABOUT Christians (def. “true believers”). True believers are never referred to as “sons of disobedience” in Scripture. What you lack, my friend, is a healthy, Biblical understanding of the believer’s new identity in Christ.”
I then responded in my post # 196 with the following: “You claim that 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 is “to” Christians but not “about” Christians. You believe it to be a reference only to the unsaved. Again, you could not be more wrong. You either did not read verse eight and the preceding verses or you are attempting some slight of hand to prove your erroneous position. Verse eight says, “But you yourselves wrong and defraud, and that even your own brethren.” Paul is indeed talking “about” Christians that have been falling back into the darkness of sin.”
I could go on and on about your deceptive use of scripture and redefinition of the context but the above examples should be sufficient. You are desperate in your efforts to defend your doctrines that do not stand up to the scrutiny of scripture but you remain undaunted in your efforts to deny the truth that stares you in the face.
O
Ozzie
Guest
I guess what I wrote to you went right over your head. You agree but at the same time disagree. You agree salvation is a gift of God but then you say it’s worthless if you do nothing with it. Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that you’re the one who gives salvation its value? I’m sorry, brother, but the value of salvation does not derive from you, or what you do with it, but the Person and work of Jesus Christ. Not your work, but HIS. Not by what you do with it, but that He did it.
Yes, your works will be appraised at the judgment seat of Christ. But your salvation will not. That is secured in/by Christ alone. *"If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss *(of rewards), but he himself shall be saved, yet as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:15). Contrary to RC doctrine, this is not Purgatory. It has nothing to do with sin, only a man’s works after being saved.
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Ozzie
Guest
I agree, to study the whole Bible is difficult. It takes time, committment and above all a proper hermeneutic. But the salvation message by grace through faith alone found in the N.T. is extremely easy to understand, it’s only complicated and distorted by the legalists.
Do you need the Pope to interpret your morning newspaper? Point being, the Gospel message found in the N.T. Scriptures is not something that is understood only by a few who serve as interpretive mediators to the masses.
I don’t trust OZZIE either, but I can trust what the Holy Spirit has clearly written regarding God’s infinite grace toward all who believe in His Son.
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Philthy
Guest
Ozzie-
Relax - you’re starting to rant :whacky: . Listen to a protestant radio station? Sorry but I’ve heard plenty - some are good some stink. Adn you don’t need to judge me by saying I “won’t” believe - that’s not your call and it’s awfully presumptuous. All I said, and it remains true, is that John 5:24 does not specifically, clearly call for faith in Jesus, but is instead referring to “belief” in "the one who sent (Him) - the Father. And your immediate response of citing John 3:16 substantiates my point well - John 3:16 is clearly speaking of faith in JESUS, unlike 5:24. That’s the verse you should have used in the first place.
Phil
John 3:5 Unless you are born of water and the holy Spirit
Titus 3:5 …saved us thru bath of rebirth and renewal by holy Spirit
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Pax
Guest
Ozzie,
This is merely your opinion, and does not square with the very long and well established understanding of this verse which predates the establishment of your errant doctrines. Your understandings do not compare with the over 2000 years of Christian wisdom that resides in the Catholic Church.
1 Cor. 3:15 fits the teaching of purgatory better than it fits any other interpretation by those that share your doctrinal view. This has been demonstrated in earlier posts should you wish to revisit the issue. Your errant repetitions offer nothing new.
I
IBLong2Yehoshua
Guest
This is what happens when one verse is taken out of context and all others are ignored.
Is this the same Paul who said that we are to come boldly before the throne of grace?
The same Paul who said that nothing would separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus?
The same Paul who said that He that has begun a new work in us will be faithful to see it to completion?
Perhaps the verse you submit does not mean what you think it does. Perhaps it means we are to apply our salvation to our lives always remembering how unworthy we are to have received it.
But to use it to suggest that we take the attitude of being unsure of our salvation is to promote unbelief in God’s Word and His promises.
May the Lord bless you all in all abundance.
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