I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

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Philthy:
Thanks exrc: you have answered “yes” to the question of needing to confess your sins for forgiveness. And, sensing a trap where none was intended, you felt the need to qualify your answer - no problem. The fact remains, however, that you do seek forgiveness for your sins through confession. Now we can understand each other a little better. I like to think of myself as a patient individual, so Im happy enough if we proceed one or two, clear questions at a time - I hope that doesn’t bore you
Not at all, thats why I’m here.

**
What is the consequence of not being in communion with the Father (ie, of not confessing your sins), and what happens if you get killed in this state? Choose from the following please:
**

A) There is an eternal consequence
B) There is not an eternal consequence


Once again I want it brief, and to the point. This is fun! No lengthy explanations.

Methodically yours in Christ,

Phil 😉

A: As we see in 1Cor. 3:5-16, and especially 3:15+16 that rewards are the issue. If you fail to maintain communication ( through confession) with your Father in heaven, you will not produce good fruit, which is the instrument used by God to harvest unbelievers. You then become a useless son. This is quite consequential.

Now I have a question for you,

What paid the penalty for your sins?

A. Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross 2000 yrs ago
or
B. confession of your sin
 
IBLong2Yehoshua said:
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But to use it to suggest that we take the attitude of being unsure of our salvation is to promote unbelief in God’s Word and His promises.

To be assured of your finished salvation is what Jesus’ Catholic Church would call the sin of presumption. (I have addressed this in an earlier post.)

To be assured that salvation is only possible through Our Lord Jesus Christ is faith.

One can have assurance that it is through Jesus Christ that we are saved and not be so arrogant as to believe that you are definitely saved no matter what course in life you take as long as you hold onto a belief.

Again, many people commit serious sins and still believe Jesus is Lord. Where does it say they will sit next to you in heaven?

And how then do you account for all the lines of Scripture–even ones from Our Lord Jesus’ lips–that remind us there is more expected of us than just a belief to have eternal life.

Once Saved, Always Saved is NOT a biblical concept.

Again I will repeat: it was developed 1600+ years after Christ, during the Reformation.

No matter how hard you try to justify it, many lines of Scripture need to be completely disregarded or distorted (as Pax pointed out above) in order for this to be THE truth.

Also, the fact that 1600 years worth of Christians DID NOT ASCRIBE TO Once Saved, Always Saved (even the earliest Christians didn’t!) gives me more proof that it was a concept developed by men with no connection to the Apostolic teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is what happens when people use personal interpretation of Scripture as he authority for all. New ideas, with no connection to Jesus’ orginal teaching pop up–many dissenting opinions can be supported by Scripture if you pick and choose which lines receive priority.

Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens

PS: There are many earlier posts about this you might like to check out.
 
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Pax:
Ozzie,

This is merely your opinion, and does not square with the very long and well established understanding of this verse which predates the establishment of your errant doctrines. Your understandings do not compare with the over 2000 years of Christian wisdom that resides in the Catholic Church.

1 Cor. 3:15 fits the teaching of purgatory better than it fits any other interpretation by those that share your doctrinal view. This has been demonstrated in earlier posts should you wish to revisit the issue. Your errant repetitions offer nothing new.
Sorry Pax, but the text itself will always testify against you. You did not “demonstrate” at all in earlier posts that 1 Cor. 3:15 fits the teaching of Purgatory but, in fact, you were shown by the text itself that it can not. I quoted to you Rome’s own teaching that Purgatory has to do with personal sins and the purging of them in order to finish a Christian’s sanctification “process,” and this by personal suffering (a blasphemous doctrine, I added). But the judgment in 1 Cor. 3 has nothing to do with sins or an ongoing sanctification process. It is completely about evaluating a Christian worker’s labor, and the fire is not used to “purge” any sins but to REVEAL the quality of one’s labor based on how he built upon the foundation Paul laid, which is Jesus Christ. *"Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor…each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work *(combustible or noncombustible).

You can’t get any clearer than that, Pax. You simply deny it for the sake of your beloved “tradition.” But your tradition does not square up with the foundation Paul laid, which is Jesus Christ and the sufficiency of His sacrificial death on the cross.
 
This statement of Ozzie’s contradicts scripture:

You can’t get any clearer than that, Pax. You simply deny it for the sake of your beloved “tradition.” But your tradition does not square up with the foundation Paul laid, which is Jesus Christ and the sufficiency of His sacrificial death on the cross.

Here’s an excerpt from the Catholic Answers library on Sacred Scripture and Tradition:

Further, it is clear that the oral teaching of Christ would last until the end of time. “’But the word of the Lord abides for ever.’ That word is the good news which was preached to you” (1 Pet. 1:25). Note that the word has been “preached”—that is, communicated orally. This would endure. It would not be
supplanted by a written record like the Bible (supplemented, yes, but not supplanted), and would continue to have its own authority.

This is made clear when the apostle Paul tells Timothy: “[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). Here we see the first few links in the chain of apostolic tradition that has been passed down intact from the apostles to our own day. Paul instructed Timothy to pass on the oral teachings (traditions) that he had received from the apostle. He was to give these to men who would be able to teach others, thus perpetuating the chain. Paul gave this instruction not long before his death (2 Tim. 4:6–8), as a reminder to Timothy of how he should conduct his ministry.

Please read the entire article at catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp

See, herein lies the problem. As the protestants drifted further and further away from the Truth they had do distinguish themselves from the Holy Roman Catholic Church and then eventually from each other, as well. This distinction, in each and every protestant split, could only be accomplished by dropping something from the Christian faith or adding something to the Christian faith. The mainstream protestant denominations share a lot of our traditions. But by the time you reach the “new” Christian churches and especially the non-denom’s - you find yourself in a church with a difficult interpratation of scripture and little, if any tradition.

But wait a minute! If tradition holds no value to these protestants than maybe they shouldn’t be passing an offering plate, or celebrating Christmas on December 25th, or opening up a church service with a prayer, or placing a cross on their church building! You see there are many traditions in the Christian faith - even at the most extreme low churches - that cannot be justified in sacred scripture. For these traditions have been passed down orally.

Open you eyes to the fullness of the faith. Sacred Scripture *and *Traditions! Yes, even, “beloved traditions”. I like that. Thanks Ozzie!

Peace be with you,

Cubby
 
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Ozzie:
. . . the salvation message by grace through faith alone found in the N.T.
Ozzie,
Salvation by faith alone is not found in the New Testament. The NT clearly statest that you are not saved by faith alone, as has been pointed out many times.

May you receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

.
 
Another quick point from the Catholic Answers library in regards to Purgatory:

(and an example of the protestants taking from the Christian faith - not only did they drop traditions, but they actually dropped entire books from the Holy Bible)

2 Macc. 12:43–45:

“In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

See this link for the entire article:
catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

Rejoice in the love of God!

Cubby
 
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Ozzie:
I guess what I wrote to you went right over your head. You agree but at the same time disagree. You agree salvation is a gift of God but then you say it’s worthless if you do nothing with it. Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that you’re the one who gives salvation its value? I’m sorry, brother, but the value of salvation does not derive from you, or what you do with it, but the Person and work of Jesus Christ. Not your work, but HIS. Not by what you do with it, but that He did it.

Yes, your works will be appraised at the judgment seat of Christ. But your salvation will not. That is secured in/by Christ alone. *"If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss *(of rewards), but he himself shall be saved, yet as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:15). Contrary to RC doctrine, this is not Purgatory. It has nothing to do with sin, only a man’s works after being saved.
Br.Ozzie,I agree our works have nothing to do with our salvation. Our works for the Lord will recieve rewards stored in heaven. The works we did to glorify ourselves have been paid already on earth. Salvation only has value if you recieve it.Look at two thieves on calvary,one recieved it and went to heaven ,the other refused and went to hell. I guess we will just have to disagree at this time with each other.Gods truth will prevail. God Bless you.
 
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Ozzie:
But your tradition does not square up with the foundation Paul laid, which is Jesus Christ and the sufficiency of His sacrificial death on the cross.
Actually Ozzie, the foundation of the Catholic Church and Tradition is the teaching of Jesus Christ, not Paul’s.

This “foundation Paul laid” that you speak of is a development of the Reformation.

Prior to the Reformation, Christians did not take Paul’s letters as their foundation of faith.

David Currie addressed your above understanding in his book: Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic. Check it out–he is very repectful of how his Evangelical/Fundamentalist beliefs prepared him for Catholicism. (I’ve mentioned his bio in an earlier post.)

Here’s a quote from his book that p(name removed by moderator)oints our differences in how we approach Scripture–which you have proven to me you do with your above statement and all of your earlier postings.

“Catholics unashamedly start with the Gospels and base their soteriology on Jesus’ teachings. They look at all the rest of the New Testament as an expansion on Jesus, which must be understood in light of his teachings.
Evangelicals start their study of soteriology with the Pauline epistles. They relegate all the rest of the Bible to being a footnote to Paul, including the teaching of Jesus. This may sound like a harsh generalization, but a check of the Evangelical literature bears this out.
This approach to Scripture [the Evangelical] bears an uncomfortably close resemblence to the Marcionite heresy.”

Again, I’ll stick with Jesus Christ as the interpretor of Paul’s letters, not the other way around.

Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens

PS: I do hope you will take the time to read some of the books I’ve mentioned. They are all great reads written by converts to the faith who while in love with and at peace with the truth they found in Catholicism, never do bash their old religion.
 
Ozzie,

The doctrine of Faith Alone (Sola Fide) was invented by Martin Luther in the 16th century. It was not taught by Christ or His Apostles, nor was it believed by any Christian before then. In fact, ***"His [Luther’s] ‘thunderbolt’ idea that faith alone was sufficient for salvation came, in his own words, as ‘knowledge the Holy Spirit gave me on the privy in the tower.’ " *** (Quoted in William Manchester, A World Lit Only by Fire: the Medieval Mind and the Renaissance, Little Brown & Company, 1993, p. 140.)

And the privy is where it belongs.

JMJ Jay
 
I think the title of this thread says a lot. Lisa said: “I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer.” This implies that she wanted us to take the effort to explain Catholic truth to her because she was indicating that she wanted an honest answer. This also might imply that there are Protestants who are not really as interested in the honest answer as they are in disputing philosophy such as faith and works etc.

Catholics and Protestants both know that faith is a gift of God’s grace and that faith and the resulting works of living as a Christian are inseparable. St. Paul says not to debate about words .

Lisa, I understand you want an honest answer. We have given them.

Ozzie and exrc, you we warmly invite you and welcome you the Church of Peter, Paul and the apostles, the Catholic Church.

As far as Purgatory:

1 Peter 3:19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,

Where were these spirits?

Pride is the enemy of truth. That which is most sublime is often that which is most obvious.

Greg
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Br.Ozzie . . . I guess we will just have to disagree at this time with each other. Gods truth will prevail.
God’s truth is unknowable to Protestants because they lack an authoritative teacher. They are left to twist meaning out of the Scriptures for themselves, through their own interpretations – or they accept the interpretations of their pastors – and they invariably get different answers. Sola Scriptura is the most destructive doctrine ever devised by the mind of man. The Scriptures means whatever each individual believer says they mean. Christianity is a revealed religion, but under the rubric of Sola Scriptura, God’s Revelation is meaningless because the Truth, which Christ said would set us free, is unknowable. Protestantism is full of competing and conflicting doctrines.

JMJ Jay
 
Christ knew that purification of the soul takes place after death, and so did His Apostles. They were, after all, Jews, and the Jews believed it. The Jews prayed for the souls of their beloved dead at the time of Christ and the Apostles, and they still pray for them today. The Apostles taught that belief to the Church. The Church called this process of purification “Purgatory” from the Latin verb purgare, to cleanse, to purify.

The Eastern Orthodox also believe in purification of the soul after death, but they have left the process unnamed.

It’s only the come-lately Protestants who deny it. They are disconnected from their Jewish roots, having made their appearance only in the 16th century. That’s why Luther cut the so-called Apocrypha out of the Scriptures – along with Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation. They disproved his new doctrine of Faith Alone. After he had removed them, he declared that the Bible (his cut version of it) was the sole rule for faith and morals – Sola Scriptura.:yup:

To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant, Anglican clergyman and Catholic convert John Henry Cardinal Newman.

JMJ Jay
 
Hello Barb,
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IBLong2Yehoshua:
But to use it to suggest that we take the attitude of being unsure of our salvation is to promote unbelief in God’s Word and His promises.
St. Paul also tells us not to engage in foolish debates. No one is saying that a Chrsitian should not have a high confidence and hope of heaven. I think the love we have in our hearts for Jesus and for each other should give us hope for heaven. In fact, I think a humble attitude of confident hope is very important.

At the same time, no one should ever think that there is no sin or rejection of Jesus that can cause us not to be in heaven:

2 Timothy 2:12-14
***if ***we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us. If we are unfaithful he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself. Remind people of these things and charge them before God to stop disputing about words.

Hebrews 10:26-27
If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

Barb, I warmly invite you the Catholic Church!

🙂

Greg
 
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IBLong2Yehoshua:
The same Paul who said that He that has begun a new work in us will be faithful to see it to completion?
Barb, consider that part of your journey to completion is to be in the same Church as St. Paul, the apostolic Catholic Church that stands firm and holds to the Traditions:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, ***either by an oral statement ***or by a letter of ours.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel did not come to you in word alone, but also in power and in the holy Spirit and (with) much conviction. You know what sort of people we were (among) you for your sake.

**1 Thessalonians 1:6 **And you became imitators of us

Phiippians 4:9 Keep on doing what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me.

**Acts 15:24 **Since we have heard that some of our number (who went out) without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind…

We welcome you!

Greg
 
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Katholikos:
God’s truth is unknowable to Protestants because they lack an authoritative teacher. I guess you will have to tell Jesus He made a big mistake sending us the Holy Spirit whom is our teacher. Why bother to read Gods Word if the Holy Spirit will not reveal it to us according to you. :eek:
 
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SPOKENWORD:
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Katholikos:
God’s truth is unknowable to Protestants because they lack an authoritative teacher.
I agree SW that that may not be the best presentation of a Catholic concept.

You believe that St. Paul is authoritative and inspired by the Holy Spirit. So also we believe that the apostolic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. I believe also as you do that Christians are personally guided by the Holy Spirit.

Greg
 
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Greg_McPherran:
I agree SW that that may not be the best presentation of a Catholic concept.

You believe that St. Paul is authoritative and inspired by the Holy Spirit. So also we believe that the apostolic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. I believe also as you do that Christians are personally guided by the Holy Spirit.

Greg
I also believe God did leave us with the five fold ministries as outlined in Ephesians.4 I know that I cant do it alone. 👍
 
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Cubby:
Thank you, Ozzie for directing me to chapter 1 of Colossians, where St. Paul encourages us to persevere in the faith. If we continue to read that chapter of Colossasians we will find the following verses (21-23): 21 And you who once were alienated and hostile in mind because of evil deeds 22 he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through his death, to present you holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister. We’ll see you around the Kingdom, thanks to the redemptive grace from Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, if you persevere!
First of all I am amazed at how delighted you were in thinking you found a loophole in God’s Word that you think defeats the sufficiency of Christ’s work on the cross to forever save the one who turns from unbelief to belief in Him. Secondly, When did I ever say that true believers are not to persevere in the faith? The fact that I present on this thread the Biblical truth of salvation, justification, and future glorification of the true believer by grace alone through faith alone doesn’t at all conclude that the faithful are not required to persevere in the truths regarding the faith. In fact, this is exactly what Paul expresses in Col. 1:23.

But before his admonishment to persevere in the faith he first establishes the divine fact that the Father has already “qualified” (past tense, in Christ) us to share in the inheritance of the saints…“for He (God the Father) delivered (past tense) us from the domain of darkness, and transferred (past tense) us to the kingdom of His beloved son, IN WHOM we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins” (present/continuous tense). He goes on to establish the fact that although the Colossians, as Gentiles, were formally alienated from God, hostile in mind and engaged in evil deeds (paganism), He reconciled (past tense) them to Himself through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross IN ORDER (for the purpose of) to present them before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach (Col. 1:22). ALL these things are theirs through their faith in Christ. They are absolute!

Now the warning in verse twenty-three is not an added condition laid upon the individual believer whom God the Father has, through faith in Christ, already reconciled to Himself; not a threat that he will find himself un-reconciled and un-redeemed at the end of his life if he did not perform and persevere properly. But Col. 1:23 is a warning against apostasy in general. That the Colossians, corporately, as a people, to whom the message of the gospel of grace was preached, must not “move away” from the hope of this gospel (i.e., “salvation by grace through faith alone”) which Paul proclaimed to them and was made a minister. They must continue to persevere in these divine truths and pass them down to the next generation or they will lose them forever, and the salvation that accompanies that gospel message.

This is a favorite passage of the legalists who diligently searche the Scriptures to try and prove God wrong via His own Word concerning Christ and the joy and freedom He has, through Him, to save forever, i.e., reconcile, redeem, justify and eventually glorify, all who will put their trust totally in His beloved Son and His historic, finished, work on the cross, and His present High Priestly work in Heaven, on their behalf.
 
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Pax:
I could go on and on about your deceptive use of scripture and redefinition of the context but the above examples should be sufficient. You are desperate in your efforts to defend your doctrines that do not stand up to the scrutiny of scripture but you remain undaunted in your efforts to deny the truth that stares you in the face.
Pax, your lengthy but inaccurate diatribe toward me is nothing but hot air, it contains no substance. Not only do you lift Scripture out of context, but my replies as well. I don’t have the time, nor should I take the space through this medium, to defend myself against all your false accusations. But let’s take one for example:
I then responded in my post # 196 with the following: “You claim that 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 is “to” Christians but not “about” Christians. You believe it to be a reference only to the unsaved. Again, you could not be more wrong. You either did not read verse eight and the preceding verses or you are attempting some slight of hand to prove your erroneous position. Verse eight says, “But you yourselves wrong and defraud, and that even your own brethren.” Paul is indeed talking “about” Christians that have been falling back into the darkness of sin.
I never said all of 1 Cor. 6:9-11 is a reference only to the unsaved. How could that be? Are unbelievers "washed," “sanctified,” and *“justified” *in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ? I think not!! But Paul, in 1 Cor. 6 is rebuking the Corinthian saints for taking their fellow brethren to the courts of unbelievers to decide their disputes (vs. 6). This was a defeat for them (vs. 7). The Corinthian brethren should not be appealing to unbelievers to judge their conflicts, my goodness, we, the saints (1 Cor. 1:2) will one day judge the world, and even angels (vss. 2-3). Should they not be able to settle amongst themselves their own minor differences? Are unbelievers wiser than they? Paul calls this a defeat on their part! Do the unrighteous to whom they appeal have any part of the Kingdom of God which is their inheritance? Paul makes his point - they were not to be deceived, for neither fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, nor swindlers (all non-believers by definition) shall inherit the kingdom of God. And bringing it home he says, “and such were some of you,” BUT YOU were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. Pax, taking their brethren to the courts of unbelievers didn’t make the unbelievers.

Paul makes a clear distinction between the “saints” and unbelievers. But your diligence in searching the Scriptures to prove God wrong in respect to saving all completely and perfectly through faith in Christ alone obscures your ability to understand His Word. And so you make your “proof list” of out-of-context verses thinking you’ve got irrefutable documentation that testifies that none are secure in Christ and all must “work” to prove themselves worthy - all to the glory of men, none to the glory of Jesus Christ.
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Br.Ozzie,I agree our works have nothing to do with our salvation. Our works for the Lord will recieve rewards stored in heaven. The works we did to glorify ourselves have been paid already on earth. Salvation only has value if you recieve it.Look at two thieves on calvary,one recieved it and went to heaven ,the other refused and went to hell. I guess we will just have to disagree at this time with each other.Gods truth will prevail. God Bless you.
Read the account, bro. Where does it say he volitionally* “received” *anything? He believed and was GIVEN eternal life, promised that he would be that day in paradise with Christ.

I heard one RC apologist make the ridiculous statement that the thief’s endurance on the cross served as his “Purgatory.” That’s why Christ promised that that day he would be with Him in Paradise. If that’s the case then all convicts who believe in Christ while doing time, and die doing time, go straight to Heaven. They did their time in “Purgatory” while in prison, even though it was for a definite crime (sin). Man…how more absurd can that doctrine get???
 
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