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MariaG
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Darn! the edit time is up! I can’t change it to Brought me home to the Catholic Church!
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Pax
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Ozzie,
Here is some more scriptural trouble for your doctrine of “once saved always saved” and your misunderstandings on the complete work of Christ.
In James 5:19-20 it says, “My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
Now notice that we have Christians and someone can wander from the truth…apparently they were saved but then lost their salvation. But another can bring the sinner back from the error of his way and will save that persons soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. This is not out of context. It is the context and it completely blows out your erroneous beliefs.
Is this an isolated verse? No, quite the contrary is true. In 1 Peter 4:8 we read, “Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins.” Of course we know from context(i.e. your “doctrinal context”) that these verse can’t possibly mean what they say. This has been the problem with all of the scriptures we have quoted to you. The number of verses and their content simply overwhelms your teaching.
Here is some more scriptural trouble for your doctrine of “once saved always saved” and your misunderstandings on the complete work of Christ.
In James 5:19-20 it says, “My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
Now notice that we have Christians and someone can wander from the truth…apparently they were saved but then lost their salvation. But another can bring the sinner back from the error of his way and will save that persons soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. This is not out of context. It is the context and it completely blows out your erroneous beliefs.
Is this an isolated verse? No, quite the contrary is true. In 1 Peter 4:8 we read, “Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins.” Of course we know from context(i.e. your “doctrinal context”) that these verse can’t possibly mean what they say. This has been the problem with all of the scriptures we have quoted to you. The number of verses and their content simply overwhelms your teaching.
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exrc
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Greg_McPherran
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**John 20:22-23 **…he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”
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Greg_McPherran
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Ozzie, do you believe that? Do you believe that a person cannot of their own free will reject their salvation? Ozzie, you said that we must persevere, so I don’t think you really believe that a person is saved and then no matter what they later do or believe they cannot lose their salvation.
I would say you are approaching the Catholic understanding Ozzie. I continue to invite you to the Catholic Church. You are most welcome here! Come to mass! It’s exciting! Jesus makes himself truly present today under the appearances of bread and wine! I think you will enjoy the beauty and fulfillment of the mass. After all, this is your apostolic heritage, so receive! You too, exrc and all!
Perhaps Maria can add comment. Your witness is powerful Maria!
Greg
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Katholikos
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spokenword wrote:
:
If the Holy Spirit is leading each and every Christian “to all truth” in reading the Bible, why are there thousands upon thousands of denominations that all disagree with every other denomination about what the Bible says?
Jesus didn’t leave us a book, He left us a Church. The book came out of the Church, who taught Christ’s doctrines to the faithful long before the New Testament ever existed.*
The Catholic Church was the Agent of the Holy Spirit in naming, canonizing, and preserving the Old Testament and writing, collecting, canonizing, naming, and preserving the New Testament. Both collections of writings together she named ta biblia – the Bible.
Prove me wrong. Present your evidence.
JMJ Jay
You resort to personal attacks when you’re faced with unalterable facts which prove the fallacies of ProtestantismLooks like you wrote the book,not the Holy Spirit. I see Gods truth is just for you. How sad.You need to read John14. Ask the Holy Spirit to reveal revelation truth to you. Jesus said He would reveal himself to those who love him. Do you love Him Jay?.Have you given up everything to follow Him?. I have Jay. Lip service is not what God is looking for.
:- Jesus never told any of his followers to write. He told them to *teach *(Mt 28:20). And teach they did.
- The NT was written by believing Catholics for believing Catholics. It was not written for those outside the Church. Take a look at the introductions in each ‘book.’
- The contents of the NT were not defined until the end of the fourth and beginning of the fifth centuries.
- The NT is not an instruction book in Christianity; it is a record of the spiritual life of the newborn Catholic Church during the first 100 years or so of its existence.
If the Holy Spirit is leading each and every Christian “to all truth” in reading the Bible, why are there thousands upon thousands of denominations that all disagree with every other denomination about what the Bible says?
Jesus didn’t leave us a book, He left us a Church. The book came out of the Church, who taught Christ’s doctrines to the faithful long before the New Testament ever existed.*
The Catholic Church was the Agent of the Holy Spirit in naming, canonizing, and preserving the Old Testament and writing, collecting, canonizing, naming, and preserving the New Testament. Both collections of writings together she named ta biblia – the Bible.
Prove me wrong. Present your evidence.
JMJ Jay
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Greg_McPherran
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Yes Ozzie but we have free will and our free will is involved. Also, you said yourself Ozzie that we must persevere. We can reject salvation after initial belief but it is always offered by God.
Is denial of truth a sin?
Greg
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Greg_McPherran
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Great bedside manner. :whacky:You resort to personal attacks when you’re faced with unalterable facts which prove the fallacies of Protestantism
Katholikos said:
This is such an excellent point!
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Philthy
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Read the account, bro. Where does it say he volitionally* “received” *anything? He believed and was GIVEN eternal life, Actually, he laid eyes on Christ and believed. That would be more consistent with: John 6:40 " For this is the will of my father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up on the last day"
…promised that he would be that day in paradise with Christ.
This does not exclude the possibility of Purgatory if you are thinking it does. We have no idea what the duration in earthly time is of one’s experience in Purgatory.
I heard one RC apologist make the ridiculous statement that the thief’s endurance on the cross served as his “Purgatory.”
That’s why Christ promised that that day he would be with Him in Paradise. If that’s the case then all convicts who believe in Christ while doing time, and die doing time, go straight to Heaven. No, this does not follow by necessity. They did their time in “Purgatory” while in prison, even though it was for a definite crime (sin). Man…how more absurd can that doctrine get?
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SPOKENWORD
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I agree I was not christlike ,Forgive me.Im not doing anymore debating in this CA site anymore. Its for reasons like this .Its really not what the Holy Spirit wants me to do. So I gracefully bow out and let you continue your goal. God Bless you.spokenword wrote:
You resort to personal attacks when you’re faced with unalterable facts which prove the fallacies of Protestantism
*You wouldn’t even know what the “Word of God” is were it not for the Catholic Church! Show me your “inspired list of writings” that belong in the Bible.
- Jesus never told any of his followers to write. He told them to teach (Mt 28:20). And teach they did.
- The NT was written by believing Catholics for believing Catholics. It was not written for those outside the Church. Take a look at the introductions in each ‘book.’
- The contents of the NT were not defined until the end of the fourth and beginning of the fifth centuries.
- The NT is not an instruction book in Christianity; it is a record of the spiritual life of the newborn Catholic Church during the first 100 years or so of its existence.
*
If the Holy Spirit is leading each and every Christian “to all truth” in reading the Bible, why are there thousands upon thousands of denominations that all disagree with every other denomination about what the Bible says?
Jesus didn’t leave us a book, He left us a Church. The book came out of the Church, who taught Christ’s doctrines to the faithful long before the New Testament ever existed.
The Catholic Church was the Agent of the Holy Spirit in naming, canonizing, and preserving the Old Testament and writing, collecting, canonizing, naming, and preserving the New Testament. Both collections of writings together she named ta biblia – the Bible.
Prove me wrong. Present your evidence.
JMJ Jay
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Katholikos
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Are you leaving because you can’t face the facts?I agree I was not christlike ,Forgive me.Im not doing anymore debating in this CA site anymore. Its for reasons like this .Its really not what the Holy Spirit wants me to do. So I gracefully bow out and let you continue your goal. God Bless you.
My only goal is that the truth be known. Protestantism is built on the fallacies of Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, and Sola Gratia.
The Holy Spirit did not lead you out of the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world, spokenword. It was the evil one. Learn the history of the Church and what she truly teaches. Learn the history of the Bible. And come home.
Peace be with you.
JMJ Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!
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Greg_McPherran
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No need to go, you have been charitable. You have a right to express your opinion in general. Saying something off the mark doesn’t mean you have to leave.
Greg
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SPOKENWORD
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James3 vs 13-18. If one of you is wise and understanding,let him show this in practice through a humility filled with good sense.Should you instead nurse bitter jealosy and selfish ambition in your hearts at least refrain from arrogant and false claims against the TRUTH. Wisdom like this does not come from above. It is earthbound,akind of animal,even devilish,cunning… Where there is jealosy and strife there also is inconstancy and all kinds of vile behavior…Wisdom from above,by contrast, is first of all innocent. It is also peacable,lenient,docile in sympathy and the kindly deeds that are its fruits impartial and sincere. The harvest of justice is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace. God Bless You all.
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exrc
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Greg_McPherran
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How can any person be sure he is in the Book?
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Greg_McPherran
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We are not denying that. So what’s the problem? Come back to the Catholic Church.
No one knows if there name is in the book until they have persevered to the end. This is Catholic teaching and agrees with what Ozzie presented as Protestant teaching. No one can claim at this point that their name is in the book.
There is no error in Catholic doctrine. What part of Catholic doctrine do you think is in error?
Protestants say Catholics are in error regarding faith vs. works. Then the more you discuss with Protestants they start to approach Catholic teaching in their own language.
There’s just no need for division. Division is not good.
The sacraments is the name by which Catholics refer to gifts of God such as baptism, communion, and marriage. What’s wrong with that? The word sacrament means “a visible sign of God’s love.”
Greg
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Pax
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You have got to be kidding! Jesus is addressing the seven Churches (Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea). These are words to Christians. Didn’t you even read the verses or go back and look at the context? Why are you even attempting to rebut the clear and holy word of God. Try accepting the truth.
Here is a little more from Revelation to give you some additional context which should remove all of your doubts.
Rev. 3:16-22
So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing; not knowing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may be rich, and white garments to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nakedness from being seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’"
Now look at these verses and look at the words I have emphasized. Can there really be any doubt that Jesus is talking to Christians? Can there really be any doubt that even believers must repent after returning to sin? Is there really any doubt that a person can lose their salvation?
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Greg_McPherran
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You are right Pax:
Hebrews 10:26-27 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.
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Pax
Guest
Where did this come from? The OT in referring to the “Book of the Living” is not referring to to a tangible book used by the Jews themselves.
Please read all of the following verses and you will clearly see that this is God’s heavenly book:
Psalm 69:28
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living; let them not be enrolled among the righteous. (This is not a reference to two different books and there is nothing to support that contention.)
Psalm 139:14-16
I praise thee, for thou art fearful and wonderful. Wonderful are thy works! Thou knowest me right well; my frame was not hidden from thee, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth. Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance; in thy book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
Exodus 32:30-35
On the morrow Moses said to the people, “You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.” So Moses returned to the Lord and said, “Alas, this people have sinned a great sin; they have made for themselves gods of gold. But now, if thou wilt forgive their sin–and if not, **blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.” ** But the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. But now go, lead the people to the place of which I have spoken to you; behold, my angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit, I will visit their sin upon them.” And the Lord sent a plague upon the people, because they made the calf which Aaron made.
The threat of being blotted out of the “Book of Life” is quite clear in the book of Revelation. Re-read the quotes from Revelation in my earlier post and you will see this to be true.
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Ozzie
Guest
It seems you believe everything you’re told but little that is written in the Word of God. Yes, Jews in O.T. times did believe in a temporary place called “sheol,” referred to as “Hades” in the Greek N.T. And Jesus confirmed this in His story regarding the unbelieving rich man and the poor, yet believing Lazarus, each going to his designated area in “Hades” at time of their deaths. One to constant torment, the other to what Christ called “Abraham’s bosom,” a place of rest and comfort, separated by a chasm. (Lk. 16:22). Just the fact that Lazarus went straight to a place of tranquility and the rich man to a place of constant torment, debunks the non-Biblical notion of “Purgatory.”
But in regards to the Macc. passage, it is indeed a conscious manipulation on the part of RC apologist to read INTO that passage the full developed RC doctrine of “Purgatory.” The Jews believed in no such doctrine or place. The idea that men were required to suffer as a form of “atonement” for their sins was completely foreign to the Jewish mind-set. (1) Judas Maccabeaeus and his company offered prayer and sacrifice for those slain in battle, “that they might be delivered from sin.” But it was through the mediatorial actions of their prayer and especially “sacrifice,” but nothing is mentioned of the dead themselves suffering in purgatorial fires in order to purge themselves of their own sins. (2) The Jews understood, based on the Mosaic Law, the need for blood sacrifice for the atonement of sins. That’s why they “sacrificed” on behalf of those slain men. (3) The book of Maccabees simply records what they did, but that does not conclude that what they did was theologically correct based on Mosaic Law. Even the Gospels record that the Sadducees (the Jewish religious leaders before and at the time of Christ) believed that there was no future, resurrection of the body, but that didn’t make what they believed correct. (4) The superstitious belief of “Purgatory” deals only with so-called “venial” sins, but the sin of the slain men of Judas Maccabeaeus was the sin of idolatry, a so-called “mortal” sin which is beyond the cure of purgatorial fires and the reach of efficacious intercession.
Origin used the term “purgatorial fire” by which the remaining stains of the soul would be burned away. But then even he understood this to be figurative and connected it to the final judgment (but he erred). It was Augustine and Gregory I who took it nearer to the later, fully developed, Roman doctrine. Although some writers restricted purgatorial sufferings to only the mind and the conscience. They surmised that a literal fire would be harmless without a material body. It was Tertullian and Cyprian that took it even further by teaching that a special satisfaction of penance was required for sins committed after baptism, and that the last farthing must be paid (Matt. 5:20, an out of context application) before the soul can be released from prison.
All very contrary to what is revealed in the Word of God where Jesus said to the thief, today you shall be with Me in paradise. And Paul emphatically states that “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” (2 Cor. 5:6-8; cf. Phil. 1:23; - who is bodily in Heaven, not “Purgatory”). The superstitious notion of “Purgatory” is found nowhere in the N.T. Why would it be? Such a teaching denies the sufficiency of divine grace and the cleansing power of Christ’s sacrificial blood: “…when He made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high” (Heb. 1:3b).
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