I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

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Greg McPherran:
As far as Purgatory: 1 Peter 3:19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, Where were these spirits?
First of all, some things should jump right out at you. They are called “spirits,” not “souls.” Men are not generally referred to in the N.T. as “spirits,” but “souls” (ex. Acts 2:41; 1 Pet. 1:22; Rev. 20:4). However, angels are always referred to as “spirits,” whether good or bad. These happen to be disobedient “spirits” and are in “prison” (locked up) having been there ever since the days of Noah. These are specific “spirits” who were disobedient at a specific, horrendous, evil time in human history, when only eight humans were considered righteous in God’s sight. The rest were destroyed by water. Believe me, those unrighteous men who were destroyed in the flood did not go to some “Purgatory” in order to be “spruced-up,” in need of a “final polishing,” for their entrance into Heaven.

Though this is an obscure passage it is still quite apparent that it is not referring to “souls” who are being kept in a penitentiary-of-suffering called "Purgatory, " but rather just as it states, a “prison” designed to lock up disobedient, rebellious “spirits.”

The passage in context says that Jesus "died for sins (plural) once for all, the Just for the unjust, having been put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit (or, Spirit) in which he made “proclamation” to those “spirits” now in prison. The word “proclamation” is the Greek word “kerussein,” which means to “proclaim,” and therefore should not be interpreted as “preached” (Gr. euangelizein, meaning “to herald good tidings,” like an evangelist). Some contend (like Karl Keating) that He “preached” the gospel to those incarcerated “spirits” and took them to Heaven with Him (erroneously referencing Eph. 4:8 as a parallel passage). But based on what is described in this specific passage, it is far more likely that Jesus proclaimed His triumph over evil through the cross to these rebellious “spirits” - not preach the gospel to them. And it is far more likely that these “spirits” are still in “prison” awaiting final judgment and to be cast into the Lake of Fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.

Bottom line, it is impossible to exegetically derive the time-developed doctrine of “Purgatory” from this obscure passage. Those who claim they do read that nonbiblical doctrine INTO it.
 
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Ozzie:
! …But Paul, in 1 Cor. 6 is rebuking the Corinthian saints for taking their fellow brethren to the courts of unbelievers to decide their disputes (vs. 6). This was a defeat for them (vs. 7). The Corinthian brethren should not be appealing to unbelievers to judge their conflicts, my goodness, we, the saints (1 Cor. 1:2) will one day judge the world, and even angels (vss. 2-3). Should they not be able to settle amongst themselves their own minor differences? Are unbelievers wiser than they? Paul calls this a defeat on their part! Do the unrighteous to whom they appeal have any part of the Kingdom of God which is their inheritance? Paul makes his point - they were not to be deceived, for neither fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, nor swindlers (all non-believers by definition) shall inherit the kingdom of God. And bringing it home he says, “and such were some of you,” BUT YOU were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. Pax, taking their brethren to the courts of unbelievers didn’t make the unbelievers.

Paul makes a clear distinction between the “saints” and unbelievers. But your diligence in searching the Scriptures to prove God wrong in respect to saving all completely and perfectly through faith in Christ alone obscures your ability to understand His Word. And so you make your “proof list” of out-of-context verses thinking you’ve got irrefutable documentation that testifies that none are secure in Christ and all must “work” to prove themselves worthy - all to the glory of men, none to the glory of Jesus Christ.
Ozzie,

I am reluctant to continue to engage you in this area of context and which of us is doing the other a disservice. I will address, however, the erroneous contentions you have made concerning 1 Corinthians 6. You are completely wrong if you believe that Paul is not warning the Church in Corinth against the listed sins. He is not talking only about what unbelievers are doing. Paul makes this clear earlier in 1Corinthians 5:1-5 where he says, "IT IS actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father’s wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

Paul is constantly upbraiding the back sliders and is warning them to avoid returning to the sinful lives that they once led. If they return to these evils they will be removed from among the believers and “delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his[their] spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”

You are parsing 1 Corinthians improperly and you are selectively losing the power and intent of the message.
 
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Ozzie:
It seems you believe everything you’re told but little that is written in the Word of God.
Ozzie, we have shown you many scriptures that refute your posts. Is this a reverse psychology tactic? If so, it does not reflect Christian charity and maturity.
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Ozzie:
All very contrary to what is revealed in the Word of God where Jesus said to the thief, today you shall be with Me in paradise.
False. We have no knowledge if that man went through purgatory or not and if he went directly to heaven it simply means that he was deemed worthy by God. How can one possible instance of someone being found worthy by God for heaven mean that purgatory does not exist. This is illogical.
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Ozzie:
The superstitious notion of “Purgatory” is found nowhere in the N.T.
**1 Peter 3:19 **Jesus preached to the spirits in the prison.
 
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Ozzie:
It seems you believe everything you’re told but little that is written in the Word of God.
Ozzie,

Why do you find it necessary to insult Cubby in this way. There are many passages in scripture that refer to the authority of the church which is the body of Christ. The Church is also referred to as the pillar and bulwark of the truth. And we are also told in the gospels that if someone doesn’t listen to two or three of the brethren then take the matter to the Church.

Since all of this is scriptural, Cubby is quite right in listening to the Church. Moreover, Cubby does accept all of scripture. He simply doesn’t accept your interpretation of scripture. You, on the other hand, find it perfectly okay to ignore the Church and to interpret scripture any way that you see fit.

I think you owe Cubby an apology.
 
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Ozzie:
First of all, some things should jump right out at you. They are called “spirits,” not “souls.” Men are not generally referred to in the N.T. as “spirits,” but “souls”
Hebrews 12:23 and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, 6 and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,

They are referred to as spirits.

Hebrews 12:23 and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, 6 and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,

How are these spirits ***made ***perfect Ozzie?
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Ozzie:
Though this is an obscure passage…it is far more likely…it is far more likely
I hear “obscure” and “likely”. Does this mean that we can only guess at the meaning of Scripture? For Scriptures like this can anyone authoritatively tell us what it means? It is clear that you are surmising and have no authoritative statement on this.
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Ozzie:
…it is far more likely that these “spirits” are still in “prison” awaiting final judgment…
So you do admit that there is a place besides Heaven and Hell.

Greg
 
I pray you’re not going to hell because I hope for as many to be saved as possible. Since you seek truth which I’m assuming since you are questioning, you are on in the right path and not stagnate somewhere presuming you can make it. Just keep out of the lukewarm waters and keep your heart on fire for the truth.

It’s the catholics that have the full benefit of truth revealed to them yet leave their faith for personal reasons who need our prayers the most.
 
I am still waiting for Ozzie’s reply to SPOKENWORD. I hadn’t thought about the fact that even satan and his demons believe. What say you to that, Oz?
 
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MariaG:
Okay Ozzie, I’ll use your words.
You’re not “using my words” the way I communicated them to you. It would help if you would take time to read and think before you make your snap responses.
Acceptance or Rejection is an action. If you want to call it acceptance or rejection of the Good News, it is still an action on the part of the recipient.
I didn’t say there was no action taken on the part of the recipient. The action required is to “believe” in the Lord Jesus Christ. The believer is then given, freely, “giftwise” salvation, justification and eternal life. Now before you respond think about what I just communicated.
As SpokenWord said, even Satan believes.
This is a most ridiculous statement!!! Satan has never believed in Jesus Christ as His personal Lord and Savior. For one thing, that’s impossible. There is no divine, salvation program for fallen angels. Christ became a Man, not an angel. PLEASE! Think before you make responses.
p.s. I personally do not see a difference between the Good News or God’s gift of salvation.
The gospel (good news) is about the Person and work of Jesus Christ. Those who believe in Him, and what He has done for them through His death on the cross, are given eternal life (Jn. 3:16-18), they are by that faith, justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:23-24), through Whom they are also reconciled to God (Rom. 5:11). These are bestowed on the believer at the time of belief - not at the end of his life. They are expressed in past tense, i.e., justified, reconciled.

You can not undo what God has sovereignly done by His grace for the one who BELEVES in Jesus. It is done to His glory.
 
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Ozzie:
You can not undo what God has sovereignly done by His grace for the one who BELEVES in Jesus. It is done to His glory.
Ozzie, by this do you mean that once a person believes, from that moment on, there is nothing they can do that will prevent them from going to Heaven? I have asked about this before, and your belief about this is not clear.

However, if that is your belief, Scripture teaches us that we can lose our salvation:

Hebrews 10:26-27 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

Greg
 
Greg_McPherran said:
Hebrews 12:23 and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, 6 and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect, They are referred to as spirits. Hebrews 12:23 and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, 6 and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,

Yup! I said they’re “generally” referred to as souls. But even in the above passages they’re referred to as “the spirits of the just.” They’re not directly called “spirits.”
How are these spirits ***made ***perfect Ozzie?
Through faith in Christ, being justifed as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:24). It says the spirits of the JUST, “made” perfect, which refers to righteous men. See also Rom. 5:19.
I hear “obscure” and “likely”. Does this mean that we can only guess at the meaning of Scripture?
It is an obscure verse, but I can tell you one thing, it’s impossible to get your doctrine of “Purgatory” out of it. It is obscure because Peter does not elaborate on it.
So you do admit that there is a place besides Heaven and Hell.
The “Paradise” side of Hades has been emptied. Lazarus is no longer there, nor is the thief. He is Home with the Lord, so is Paul and all the other true believers who have died and they await their glorified bodies in the first resurrection. No one is in Hell yet. All unbelievers, like the unbelieving rich man, await their resurrection and final judgment and then will be cast off into the lake of fire. Scripture speaks NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING of a place called “Purgatory.” Believe in it and teach it if you will, but you blaspheme the cross of Christ whenever you do.

Greg
 
Ozzie said:
"Through faith in Christ, being justifed as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:24). It says the spirits of the JUST, “made” perfect, which refers to righteous men.

That was not my point, my point was that for a spirit to be made perfect would require a purification after this life. It does not say “men” made perfect, it says “spirits” made perfect. Also if they are “spirits of the just” and are just, then why would they need to be made perfect?
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Ozzie:
It is an obscure verse…It is obscure because Peter does not elaborate on it.
So what means do we use to understand such Scriptures?
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Ozzie:
It is an obscure verse, but I can tell you one thing, it’s impossible to get your doctrine of “Purgatory” out of it.
It is an indication that there are other places besides Heaven and Hell. Therefore, it weakens the claim that purgatory is unreasonable. Also, you have shown no Scriptures that prove purgatory does not exist. I can refute the one’s you have shown (e.g. see my previous post regarding the thief on the cross).
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Ozzie:
All unbelievers, like the unbelieving rich man, await their resurrection and final judgment and then will be cast off into the lake of fire.
So again, you admit there is a place besides Heaven and Hell?

Also, where was the place that Jesus preached/proclaimed to the spirits (referred to in 1 Peter 3:19)? Is this the same place that those who have died and are destined to hell are now?
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Ozzie:
The “Paradise” side of Hades has been emptied. Lazarus is no longer there, nor is the thief. He is Home with the Lord,
So you believe that the thief was somewhere before he went to Heaven? Therefore you believe that there is a place other than Heaven or Hell?

It seems like you believe in at least one place other than Heaven or Hell and perhaps two. One being where Lazarus and the thief were, and the other being where the spirits referred to in 1 Peter 3:19 were.

Again, you believe there is a place or places other than Heaven and Hell?

Greg
 
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Ozzie:
Believe in it and teach it if you will…
What do you mean by this? Do you believe that it is acceptable for a Christian to believe in Purgatory? Do you believe that we do not jeapordize our salvation by believing in Purgatory?
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Ozzie:
Believe in it and teach it if you will, but you blaspheme the cross of Christ whenever you do.
Why does belief in Purgatory blaspheme the cross of Christ Ozzie?

Ozzie, do you believe that when a person enters heaven, he/she will be in the same state as when they died? Let me clarify. Do you think that if a believer (who has persevered) dies and does not have perfect love in his/her soul or has failed to confess and repent for all their sins that they will enter heaven just as they are?

Do you believe that after a person dies there is no change in that person’s soul from when they were on earth to when they enter Heaven?

What if a person who is a believer dies but does not love perfectly? Will this imperfect love enter Heaven? What if a believer dies but has sinful pride or is dishonest in any way? Will this pride and dishonesty enter Heaven?

Greg
 
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Ozzie:
Scripture speaks NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING of a place called “Purgatory.”
Matt 12:32 …but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

How can a person be forgiven in the age to come, Ozzie?
 
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Greg_McPherran:
That was not my point, my point was that for a spirit to be made perfect would require a purification after this life. It does not say “men” made perfect, it says “spirits” made perfect. Also if they are “spirits of the just” and are just, then why would they need to be made perfect?
I’ve only got a few minutes, Greg. I can just answer these couple of questions. I’ll get to your notorious Heb. verse later. You say that was not your point, but that is the point of Scripture. It is God who makes His “point” in Scripture, not us. The passage does not say they *achieved *perfection, it says they were “made” perfect. It is “JUST” men made perfect. That’s how they were made perfect, by being JUSTIFIED as a GIFT (Rom. 3:24).
So what means do we use to understand such Scriptures?
First of all I learned how to read. I personally believed in Christ as my Savior and was indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I’ve committed to the study of His inerrant Word. I read the literary works of others. I approach His Word desiring to know what HE has to say, not reading into His Word what others say.
It is an indication that there are other places besides Heaven and Hell. Therefore, it weakens the claim that purgatory is unreasonable.
The only other place it talks about is Hades. And if you read those Scriptures that mention it, you would have to admit it’s not Purgatory. Of believers Paul said “to be absent from the body is to be at Home with the Lord.” Christ is in Heaven.
also, you have shown no Scriptures that prove purgatory does not exist.
Do you not realize how ridiculous this statement is!!?? That’s like saying I have shown no Scriptures that prove that the moon is not made of cheese. “Purgatory” is a man-made doctrine. It is NOT Scriputrally based.
I can refute the one’s you have shown (e.g. see my previous post regarding the thief on the cross).
You simply stated that I can’t, by that passage, prove he didn’t go to Purgatory. Jesus said to him, “This day you will be WITH ME…” Jesus did not go to a fictional place called “Purgatory.”
Also, where was the place that Jesus preached/proclaimed to the spirits (referred to in 1 Peter 3:19)? Is this the same place that those who have died and are destined to hell are now?
No. He proclaimed His triumph over death and judgment to those “spirits” in that prison. There were no “souls” in that prison.
It seems like you believe in at least one place other than Heaven or Hell and perhaps two.
Greg, the “Paradise” side of Hades is EMPTY, no one goes there anymore. ALL true believers when absent from the body go directly HOME to be with the Lord. The believer’s cleansing of sins is never in a PLACE but a PERSON, the Lord Jesus Christ. The problem lies with you, my good man! You refuse to believe it, even though God’s Word proclaims it.
 
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Ozzie:
It is God who makes His “point” in Scripture, not us. The passage does not say they *achieved *perfection, it says they were “made” perfect. It is “JUST” men made perfect. That’s how they were made perfect, by being JUSTIFIED as a GIFT (Rom. 3:24).
God makes His point with Divine Revelation understood with the Guidence of the Holy Spirit by Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition through His Holy Catholic Church.

Also, everyone in Purgatory are “Just” or they wouldn’t be there. They have already been judged. If they were not “Just” they would be in hell.

And of course Purgatory is where they are made perfect.
 
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SPOKENWORD:
I agree I was not christlike ,Forgive me.Im not doing anymore debating in this CA site anymore. Its for reasons like this .Its really not what the Holy Spirit wants me to do. So I gracefully bow out and let you continue your goal. God Bless you. 😦
I hate to see you go. 😦

I’ve enjoyed reading your posts as you explore your faith.

Please feel free to contact me and I will gladly send you (free) some books that might shed more light on the debates we’ve been having here.

(If you ever really want to read about Jesus’ Catholic Church, best read about it from books written by Catholics. They can explain our doctrines much better–for obvious reasons, some of which have been proven here on this very thread.)

I hope that you have at least received some information here that you might find useful to you.

Please take care and always remember that Jesus’ Catholic Church welcomes you and will be here for you always.

Sincerely Your In Christ,
KLStevens
 
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Ozzie:
…That’s like saying I have shown no Scriptures that prove that the moon is not made of cheese. “Purgatory” is a man-made doctrine. It is NOT Scriputrally based.

…ALL true believers when absent from the body go directly HOME to be with the Lord. The believer’s cleansing of sins is never in a PLACE but a PERSON, the Lord Jesus Christ. The problem lies with you, my good man! You refuse to believe it, even though God’s Word proclaims it.
Ozzie,

We have given you a lot of scripture concerning purgatory and you simply reject it out of hand. You go to rather far fetched lengths in your disagreements. You’ve even claimed that it is non-scriptural and man-made when we have shown you otherwise.

No one questions that Jesus is the source of atonement, redemption, and the cleansing of our sins, but Jesus is also the source of our sanctification. It is clear from scripture that sanctification is a process and that at the end of our lives we may not be fully sanctified. Jesus is the source of our final sanctification and Catholics believe that this final sanctification will be accomplished after death if it has not been accomplished before then.

Nothing unclean will enter heaven, and justification and sanctification go together to insure that we are free from the last vestiges and desires of sin when we enter heaven. This is the most reasonable understanding of scripture and makes the best sense of the verse in Hebrews that refers to “the spirits of just men made perfect.”

Your proposal that when a person dies they automatically go straight to heaven is not explicitly stated in scripture and is less believable than the Catholic doctrine of purgatory which has plenty of scriptural foundation. The words “Trinity and Incarnation” are not stated in scripture either, but the Catholic church provided these terms based on scripture. All Christians accept the terms and their definitions. So also should they accept purgatory.

You might try reading C.S. Lewis book The Great Divorce. Although he wasn’t Catholic he did believe in the doctrine. His book is a wonderful imaginative portrayal that gives an interesting view of heaven, hell, and purgatory. It is a short and an enjoyable read even if you don’t accept the teaching.
 
exrc,

In my previous post on the book of life, I failed to include one final verse from the book of Revelation that should cap this issue off.

In a final warning Jesus tells us in Rev 22:18-19, "I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Please take note that Jesus is talking about heaven, and that if anyone adds or subtracts to the words of this book God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city. In other words that person was saved but has now lost that salvation. There share in the tree of life and in the holy city will be taken from them. They have lost their salvation.

“Once Saved always Saved?” Not a chance!
 
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Ozzie:
You say that was not your point, but that is the point of Scripture. It is God who makes His “point” in Scripture, not us.
Yes, I understand. Just because I said “my” point does not mean that I was not referring to God’s teaching in Scripture. When I said “my” point, I merely meant that you were not addressing the teaching of God that I was referring to. You still have not addressed what I was referring to.
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Ozzie:
It is “JUST” men made perfect.
Again, the Scripture does not say “men” made perfect, it says “spirits” made perfect. How can a spirit be made perfect. What does spirit refer to a man before or after death?

Also if they are “spirits of the just” and are just, then why would they need to be made perfect?
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Ozzie:
I read the literary works of others.
Yet, you do not know what 1 Peter 3:19 means? Why don’t you know what 1 Peter 3:19 means, Ozzie, who can tell us what it means?
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Ozzie:
I read the literary works of others.
You should read the works of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church teaches what the apostles taught. You should turn awy from man-made doctrines such as Sola Scriptura.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, ***either by an oral statement ***or by a letter of ours.

You see Ozzie, non-Catholic Christians have not stood firm in the apostolic teachings and traditions. The Catholic Church has stood firm in these traditions while others have abandoned the truth for man-made myths.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel did not come to you in word alone, but also in power and in the holy Spirit and (with) much conviction. You know what sort of people we were (among) you for your sake.

You see Ozzie, the gospel does not come in word alone.

Phiippians 4:9 Keep on doing what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me.

You see Ozzie, the Catholic Church has continued what has been learned and seen (not only what is recorded in Scripture.)
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Ozzie:
I approach His Word desiring to know what HE has to say, not reading into His Word what others say.
That Catholic Church understood the truths of the apostolic faith before the Bible was formally compiled. We do not read anything ***into ***Scripture. Scripture and apostolic Tradition shed light on each other and are in harmony. To fully understand Scripture and the truth of the Christian faith requires Scripture and apostolic Tradition. Scripture teaches us about this tradition.
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Ozzie:
I read the literary works of others.
How do you decide whose literary works you can trust?
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Ozzie:
The only other place it talks about is Hades.
But you still have not told me where 1 Peter 3:19 refers to.
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Ozzie:
The only other place it talks about is Hades.
Even from the non-biblical perspective of Sola Scriptura, Purgatory should not be seen as an impossible doctrine because there is a place other than Heaven and Hell and you admit that.
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Ozzie:
Of believers Paul said “to be absent from the body is to be at Home with the Lord.”
Actually Ozzie, from what I understand the Scripture that you use to teach that does not even say that. What Scripture are you referring to?

Please also address my other previous posts regarding Purgatory.
 
Pax said:
exrc,

In my previous post on the book of life, I failed to include one final verse from the book of Revelation that should cap this issue off.

In a final warning Jesus tells us in Rev 22:18-19, "I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. The King James version translates this as “…God shall take away his part out of the book of life,…”

Please take note that Jesus is talking about heaven, and that if anyone adds or subtracts to the words of this book God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city. In other words that person was saved but has now lost that salvation. There share in the tree of life and in the holy city will be taken from them. They have lost their salvation.

“Once Saved always Saved?” Not a chance!
 
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