I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[MariaG]

Salvation is a free gift from God. Gifts are either accepted or rejected. Both are actions on the part of the one who Salvation is offered.

 

[WBB]

Ozzie:

Read the account, bro. Where does it say he volitionally* “received” *anything? He believed and was GIVEN eternal life, promised that he would be that day in paradise with Christ.

I heard one RC apologist make the ridiculous statement that the thief’s endurance on the cross served as his “Purgatory.” That’s why Christ promised that that day he would be with Him in Paradise. If that’s the case then all convicts who believe in Christ while doing time, and die doing time, go straight to Heaven. They did their time in “Purgatory” while in prison, even though it was for a definite crime (sin). Man…how more absurd can that doctrine get???

Not any more absurd than “once saved always saved” and all the other “hot air” that you are spewing.

 

[Pax]

Ozzie:

Sorry Pax, but the text itself will always testify against you. You did not “demonstrate” at all in earlier posts that 1 Cor. 3:15 fits the teaching of Purgatory but, in fact, you were shown by the text itself that it can not. I quoted to you Rome’s own teaching that Purgatory has to do with personal sins and the purging of them in order to finish a Christian’s sanctification “process,” and this by personal suffering (a blasphemous doctrine, I added). But the judgment in 1 Cor. 3 has nothing to do with sins or an ongoing sanctification process. It is completely about evaluating a Christian worker’s labor, and the fire is not used to “purge” any sins but to REVEAL the quality of one’s labor based on how he built upon the foundation Paul laid, which is Jesus Christ. "Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor…each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work (combustible or noncombustible).

You can’t get any clearer than that, Pax. You simply deny it for the sake of your beloved “tradition.” But your tradition does not square up with the foundation Paul laid, which is Jesus Christ and the sufficiency of His sacrificial death on the cross.

Ozzie,

You are simply wrong.

 

[Pax]

Ozzie:

Pax, your lengthy but inaccurate diatribe toward me is nothing but hot air, it contains no substance. Not only do you lift Scripture out of context, but my replies as well. I don’t have the time, nor should I take the space through this medium, to defend myself against all your false accusations. But let’s take one for example: I never said all of 1 Cor. 6:9-11 is a reference only to the unsaved. How could that be? Are unbelievers "washed," “sanctified,” and *“justified” *in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ? I think not!! But Paul, in 1 Cor. 6 is rebuking the Corinthian saints for taking their fellow brethren to the courts of unbelievers to decide their disputes (vs. 6). This was a defeat for them (vs. 7). The Corinthian brethren should not be appealing to unbelievers to judge their conflicts, my goodness, we, the saints (1 Cor. 1:2) will one day judge the world, and even angels (vss. 2-3). Should they not be able to settle amongst themselves their own minor differences? Are unbelievers wiser than they? Paul calls this a defeat on their part! Do the unrighteous to whom they appeal have any part of the Kingdom of God which is their inheritance? Paul makes his point - they were not to be deceived, for neither fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, nor swindlers (all non-believers by definition) shall inherit the kingdom of God. And bringing it home he says, “and such were some of you,” BUT YOU were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. Pax, taking their brethren to the courts of unbelievers didn’t make the unbelievers.

Paul makes a clear distinction between the “saints” and unbelievers. But your diligence in searching the Scriptures to prove God wrong in respect to saving all completely and perfectly through faith in Christ alone obscures your ability to understand His Word. And so you make your “proof list” of out-of-context verses thinking you’ve got irrefutable documentation that testifies that none are secure in Christ and all must “work” to prove themselves worthy - all to the glory of men, none to the glory of Jesus Christ.

Ozzie,

You are simply wrong, and I will stand by all of my previous posts and the context of scripture in every case. You are simply dreaming. You made erroneous claims for context and you were refuted. You play games and create problems where they do not exist.

 

[Pax]

Ozzie,

Let’s take another look at your “once saved always saved” doctrine from scripture.

Please note that scripture talks about the names of the saved being written in “The Book of Life.” In Revelation 13:8 we read, “and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.”

Now, take note that the names written in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain are are the names of the saved and have been written in the book since before the foundation of the world. Not everybody’s name is written in the book of life. Moreover, it’s pretty clear from scripture that some people’s names couldn’t be written in the book of life because they never believed in Jesus as their Savior. All of this should be consistent with your teaching unless you are prepared to take another twist and turn to escape what comes next.

According to scripture a person’s name can be in the book of life, but once there that it can also be blotted out. This is evidenced by Revelation 3:4-5 where it says, “Yet you have still a few persons in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes; they will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes, and I will not blot your name out of the book of life; I will confess your name before my Father and before his angels.” This is also evidenced in Psalm 69:28 where it says, “Let them be blotted out of the book of the living; let them not be enrolled among the righteous.”

Now, if a person’s name is in the book of life they are saved. If their name is blotted out they have lost their salvation. Note, they are saved and then they are no longer saved. Once again, “once saved always saved” doesn’t meet the scriptural test.

 

[Pax]

Ozzie,

Now let’s take another look at Revelation 3:4-5. It says, “Yet you have still a few persons in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes; they will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes, and I will not blot your name out of the book of life; I will confess your name before my Father and before his angels.”

Take note that these people are worthy for they have not soiled their clothes[they are not sinners]. And also note that it says **“If you conquer” ** I will not blot your name out of the book of life. These poeple obviously have something that “they must do”. They must not sin and they must conquer.

Jesus also talks about the person who conquers in Rev 2:7 where he says, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God."

Then again in Rev. 2:11 Jesus says, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who conquers shall not be hurt by the second death."

Then again in Rev. 2:17 Jesus says, “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. **To him who conquers ** I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone which no one knows except him who receives it.”

Then again in Rev 2:26-28 “He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father; and I will give him the morning star.”

And finally Jesus says it again in Rev 3:12, “He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.”

But wait, Jesus says it again in Rev 3:21-22 “He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

And just when we thought it wouldn’t be said again, we find in Rev 21:7-8 another interesting statement that says, " He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

And look what happens to the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, the murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolater, and all the liars.

The truth is again staring you in the face from another part of scripture. Just accept the truth. It is Jesus, Himself, that has said these things. It could not be more clear.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hebrews 10:26-27 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

Pride is the enemy of truth.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Ozzie:

The fact that I present on this thread the Biblical truth of salvation, justification, and future glorification of the true believer by grace alone through faith alone doesn’t at all conclude that the faithful are not required to persevere in the truths regarding the faith.

Understand that the works and faith are inseparable realities after initial grace. Yes, perseverance is necessary. We are patiently persevering with you.

Ozzie:

Now the warning in verse twenty-three is not an added condition laid upon the individual believer whom God the Father has, through faith in Christ, already reconciled to Himself; not a threat that he will find himself un-reconciled and un-redeemed at the end of his life if he did not perform and persevere properly.

Well, here is such a warning Ozzie:

Hebrews 10:26-27 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

Ozzie:

They must continue to persevere in these divine truths and pass them down to the next generation or they will lose them forever, and the salvation that accompanies that gospel message.

Perseverance is an act of the will, a “work”. Also, you should consider the need to persevere as a member of the apostolic faith which you are not fully part of.

Faith without works is dead. Perseverance in faith is itself a “work”.

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

MariaG:

Salvation is a free gift from God. Gifts are either accepted or rejected. Both are actions on the part of the one who Salvation is offered.

Well said, and also perseverance is a “work”. You were once Protestant weren’t you?

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Ozzie:

The fact that I present on this thread the Biblical truth of salvation, justification, and future glorification of the true believer by grace alone through faith alone

James 2:24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Ozzie:

First of all I am amazed at how delighted you were in thinking you found a loophole in God’s Word that you think defeats the sufficiency of Christ’s work on the cross to forever save the one who turns from unbelief to belief in Him.

No one is looking for a loophole Ozzie. We have free will so we can reject salvation if we so choose. That’s not a loophole.

Hebrews 10:26-27 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

Ozzie:

…the sufficiency of Christ’s work on the cross to forever save the one who turns from unbelief to belief in Him.

Are you saying that a believer can not later reject salvation?

What are you saying Ozzie?

 

[Greg_McPherran]

1 Peter 3:19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,

Where were these spirits Ozzie?

 

[Philthy]

exrc:

Not at all, thats why I’m here.

A: As we see in 1Cor. 3:5-16, and especially 3:15+16 that rewards are the issue. If you fail to maintain communication ( through confession) with your Father in heaven, you will not produce good fruit, which is the instrument used by God to harvest unbelievers. You then become a useless son. This is quite consequential.

Now I have a question for you,

What paid the penalty for your sins?

A. Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross 2000 yrs ago
or
B. confession of your sin

What am I to do with you? You have breeched protocol by not answering either question in the appropriate format. This means we are not communicating effectively. Was this question too difficult to answer?
**Is there any relationship between your current and future sins being forgiven through confession and Christ’s death and resurrection? **
A) Yes

**B) No **

Please stick to the program! IF you don’t undersand the question let me know - I’ll rephrase it…but unless you can answer this simple question I don’t think we should persue others. A or B

You were also ambiguous in answering this:

What is the consequence of not being in communion with the Father (ie, of not confessing your sins), and what happens if you get killed in this state? Choose from the following please:

A) There is an eternal consequence
B) There is not an eternal consequence

“quite consequential.”, your answer, was not an option. Were the options not clear? Did you mean there is an eternal consequence or not? I’m trying to keep us both on the same page so that we can actually understand each other. When you make a statement like “quite consequential.” I don’t really know what you mean, and I’m not sure you do either! The responses are mutually exclusive - it’s either A or B, not both and not neither.

You have supplied me with a question also. Excellent. Unfortunately it is a packed one with lots of loose ends and the responses you give to choose from are not mutually exclusive. But to show you how our “game” is to be played I will go along with your choices and then provide a brief explanation.

What paid the penalty for your sins?

A. Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross 2000 yrs ago
or
B. confession of your sin

My choice would be A.

I feel the fullest answer, however, is that Christ’s redemptive sacrifice on the cross is applied to my current and future need (of forgiveness) through confession of my sins. If I knowingly choose to ignore confession of my sins, I am rejecting the means of redemption as God has manifested it. I could be wrong - I’ve never actually heard anyone else express this view.

Phil

 

[Katholikos]

SPOKENWORD:

Katholikos:

God’s truth is unknowable to Protestants because they lack an authoritative teacher. I guess you will have to tell Jesus He made a big mistake sending us the Holy Spirit whom is our teacher. Why bother to read Gods Word if the Holy Spirit will not reveal it to us according to you.

God’s Truth is knowable to Protestants only insofar as their beliefs coincide with the teaching of the Catholic Church, which was founded by Christ for the salvation of the world. She alone is given the Holy Spirit to guide her in teaching doctrine and morals, to be with her always (Jn 14:16-18, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-15, Acts 1:1-2, et al.). The Church speaks for Christ (Luke 10:16, Mt 10:40, et al.). The Faith was “once for all delivered to the saints” (i.e., to the Church, Jude 3), so why do Protestants keep reinventing it at the rate of five new denominations per week, worldwide?

Every Christian is given the Holy Spirit at baptism, to guide them *personally, *to help them lead a Christian life, and to help them persevere to the end so that they may achieve salvation. They are not given the charism of reading the Scriptures and determining doctrine. After all, doctrine was “once for all delivered” so why does every Protestant have to figure it out all over again? Catholics read God’s Word to apply it to their own lives – not to figure out what they should believe.

You wouldn’t even know what the “Word of God” is were it not for the Catholic Church! Show me your “inspired list of writings” that belong in the Bible.

If the Holy Spirit is leading each and every Christian “to all truth” in reading the Bible, why are there thousands upon thousands of denominations that all disagree with every other denomination about what the Bible says?

Jesus didn’t leave us a book, He left us a Church. The book came out of the Church, which had taught Christ’s doctrines to the faithful long before the New Testament even existed.

JMJ Jay

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Katholikos:

God’s Truth is knowable to Protestants only insofar as their beliefs coincide with the teaching of the Catholic Church, which was founded by Christ for the salvation of the world. She alone is given the Holy Spirit to guide her in teaching doctrine and morals, to be with her always (Jn 14:16-18, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-15, Acts 1:1-2, et al.). The Church speaks for Christ (Luke 10:16, Mt 10:40, et al.). The Faith was “once for all delivered to the saints” (i.e., to the Church, Jude 3), so why do Protestants keep reinventing it at the rate of five new denominations per week, worldwide?

Every Christian is given the Holy Spirit at baptism, to guide them *personally, *to help them lead a Christian life, and to help them persevere to the end so that they may achieve salvation. They are not given the charism of reading the Scriptures and determining doctrine. After all, doctrine was “once for all delivered” so why does every Protestant have to figure it out all over again? Catholics read God’s Word to apply it to their own lives – not to figure out what they should believe.

You wouldn’t even know what the “Word of God” is were it not for the Catholic Church! Show me your “inspired list of writings” that belong in the Bible.

If the Holy Spirit is leading each and every Christian “to all truth” in reading the Bible, why are there thousands upon thousands of denominations that all disagree with every other denomination about what the Bible says?

Jesus didn’t leave us a book, He left us a Church. The book came out of the Church, which had taught Christ’s doctrines to the faithful long before the New Testament even existed.

JMJ Jay

Looks like you wrote the book,not the Holy Spirit. I see Gods truth is just for you. How sad. You need to read John14. Ask the Holy Spirit to reveal revelation truth to you. Jesus said He would reveal himself to those who love him. Do you love Him Jay?.Have you given up everything to follow Him?. I have Jay. Lip service is not what God is looking for.

 

[Ozzie]

MariaG:

Salvation is a free gift from God. Gifts are either accepted or rejected. Both are actions on the part of the one who Salvation is offered.

Where does it say in the Bible that the gift of salvation is offered? The message that has gone out into the world is to BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. When one BELIEVES in Him he is given the GIFT of salvation (Eph. 2:8-9). You’re making up your own gospel. You may accept or reject the good news about Christ (free will), but you do not volitionally accept or reject His GIFT of salvation, justification and eternal life. These are GIVEN to the believer as free gifts at the time of belief in His Son. Read my post # 655 & # 656.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Ozzie:

Where does it say in the Bible that the gift of salvation is offered? The message that has gone out into the world is to BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. When one BELIEVES in Him he is given the GIFT of salvation (Eph. 2:8-9). You’re making up your own gospel. You may accept or reject the good news about Christ (free will), but you do not volitionally accept or reject His GIFT of salvation, justification and eternal life. These are GIVEN to the believer as free gifts at the time of belief in His Son. Read my post # 655 & # 656.

So Ozzie,you believe that believing is all that is necessary. I disagree. An action is required. My God,even devils believe in Jesus Christ. Does that mean they are saved?

 

[MariaG]

Well said, and also perseverance is a “work”. You were once Protestant weren’t you?

Greg

:yup: Actually, I had an infant Catholic Baptism, parents stopped going when I was 4. Started again briefly at 15, unfortunately it was at one of the Churches deep in financial trouble right now . Had a born again experience at a Nazarene Church, realized the awesome power of the Holy Spirit at an Assembly of God, discovered the importance of missionary zeal in an Evangelical, and then God brought me home.

Thank you, Lord!

 

[MariaG]

Okay Ozzie, I’ll use your words.

Acceptance or Rejection is an action. If you want to call it acceptance or rejection of the Good News, it is still an action on the part of the recipient. As SpokenWord said, even Satan believes. More is required. It is the active acceptance or rejection of the Good News.

The response, the acceptance or rejection of the Good News, is an action.

Posted by Ozzie
Where does it say in the Bible that the gift of salvation is offered? The message that has gone out into the world is to BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. When one BELIEVES in Him he is given the GIFT of salvation (Eph. 2:8-9). You’re making up your own gospel. You may accept or reject the good news about Christ (free will), but you do not volitionally accept or reject His GIFT of salvation, justification and eternal life. These are GIVEN to the believer as free gifts at the time of belief in His Son. Read my post # 655 & # 656.

p.s. I personally do not see a difference between the Good News or God’s gift of salvation. I see it as God’s gift of salvation as being wrapped in the preaching of the Good News. But if there is a difference, the acceptance or rejection of the Good News or of the Gift of Salvation, **it is still the action of acceptance or rejection on the part of the one who is hearing the news or receiving the gift.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

:yup: Actually, I had an infant Catholic Baptism, parents stopped going when I was 4. Started again briefly at 15, unfortunately it was at one of the Churches deep in financial trouble right now . Had a born again experience at a Nazarene Church, realized the awesome power of the Holy Spirit at an Assembly of God, discovered the importance of missionary zeal in an Evangelical, and then God brought me home.

Thank you, Lord!

Maria, if God brought you home[heaven] am I speaking to heavenly saint? We are not suppoesed to speak to spirits. Just Kidding!!