I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[MariaG]

Hi Dan:wave:

Posted by exrc #1039
What if all sins are “mortal” as I’ve pointed out with James 2:10, and Paul Rom. 6:23, and Adams sin. Disobedience in any fashion is worthy of death Eternally. You would literally have to spend every waking moment in the confessional.

What if all sins are mortal? But I showed you Scripture that states not all sin is deadly. While I do understand you believe this is refering to a physical death, not Spiritual, I do not. Since you start off with a faulty argument, all sin is deadly, your following scenario does not stand up.

Can’t you see that you’re on the road to self righteousness? If you don’t put your total trust in Christ to save you completely, then you are trusting in your own ability to become worthy of being saved. Because you have to keep yourself away from “serious” sin, in order to maintain your salvation. Your salvation is conditional, and dependent upon your behavior. You have no assurance that you will be saved, because you haven’t lived your entire life out yet.

See, this is where you completely misunderstand. I do completely trust in Christ. I do not believe I am in any way capable of working to maintain my salvation.

I trust in the Lord completely for my salvation. I also obey the Lord. If you believed that Christ had told us to go to confession, would you disobey Him? How could you say you trusted Him completely, but choose to disobey Him? :bible1: Jn 20:21-23 lays out the Sacrament of Reconcilliation. It does not say go and teach forgiveness, it says go and forgive.

It is not that I think somehow if I go to confession enough I will be made worthy, that is not the case. What it is Trust and Obey. I trust in Jesus. He told me to go to confession. I trust Jesus has a reason whether I understand or not. I go. Trust and Obey. I do not understand how someone can say they trust Jesus completely, but do not obey Him.

:bible1: Believe on the Lord and thou shalt be saved. I trust that completely.

Have at most a tenetive agreement. Your assurance goes only as far as you can obey the law, and make yourself available to the provisions of forgiveness set forth by the RCC.

I truly do not understand when you say obey the law and provisions of forgiveness set forth by the RCC. I follow Christ and obey His word. His word tells us to go to confession. Scripture supports this view and now I have also found that History supports it also.

Part one (continued)

 

[SPOKENWORD]

exrc,

In reference to my use of Romans 11:20-22 you responded with the following:

In response to this I can only say that you are desperate in your attempts to explain this verse away. When Paul writes a letter to a local church he doesn’t send a personalized custom copy to each member. Instead, he writes a general letter that would be similar to a sermon should he be preaching. The message is not just to a group as if a group had no members. The message is to individuals within the group or it has no meaning.

When Paul condemns fornication, idolatry, murder, etc and warns the believers that those that do these things will not enter heaven he is addressing a group of individuals. Individuals can go to hell. They can do so one at a time or they can do it in a group setting should they all die at once. Why warn a group if it meant nothing to the individuals?

You cannot explain away these kinds of verses in the NT. “Once saved always saved” is a dangerous non-biblical doctrine. This teaching is in no way explicitly stated in scripture. Because of the nature and significance of this teaching, if it were true, it would be explicitly stated in scripture. From our perspective it isn’t even implicitly stated. It appears to us that efforts to scripturally support the teaching are such an extreme stretch that large portions of scripture have to be completely ignored to allow the few that remain to be twisted around to support it.

Another thing that you might keep in mind is that only a relatively small minority of Christians worldwide accept this doctrine which was never even heard of until the Reformation. It’s simply an error and a very serious one at that.

Pax,I agree.
Any one making claims to once saved always saved is being decieved for it is a lie from the pit of hell. God Bless.

 

[MariaG]

continued Hi Dan:wave:

I now can understand why the RCC appealed to you. They seemed to have a solution to your dilemma. The nazarenes created doubt where there should not have been. A very legalist bunch they are. No offence.

No offense taken. That is why I walked away from the Nazarene Church. Their teachings seemed to deny Christ’s forgiveness on the Cross. I completely agree that they are leagalistic. Of course we both could have offended a practicing Nazarene.

But I went to an Assembly of God next. They also trust Christ completely but believe in a “backslidden” Christian. This is like the Catholic belief. Once a Christian, always a Christian, just a Christian that will find themselves in Hell. After them I went to an Evangelical that then combined with Agape. Both used the term backslidden Christian.

Frankly, with the first church being Nazarene that I went to, I do not see any legalism in the Catholic Church. I truly am confused when people say this. I do understand that there are those who can go through the motions of “following the rules” but that does not mean they are saved. Any “rule” in the Catholic Church is for one purpose, help us move closer to Christ and keep our eyes on Him.

It’s possible of course that a real christian could do the most heinous of things. The enemy can find a chink in anyones armor and exploit it. However, Christ’s sacrifice is more powerful than any sin, and can keep him saved through any circumstance.

A real Christian, while still being a child of God, will find himself in Hell if he chooses to do horrible ungodly things IF he dies unrepentant of that sin. I know someone else brought this up, but the prodigal son shows us, I believe what God chooses to do with us. Our inheritance is the kingdom of heaven. We can choose to squander it. Or we can even choose to be unhappy about those who spent their whole life throwing away their inheritance but come back to the feast. Or we can choose to be like the Father and rejoice at the one who chooses to come back no matter how long gone. Those of us already at the table, need not be jealous of those just joining. God’s love is not limited.

No, There two categories:

1. the religious unbeliever who thinks he is saved because he joined a church and was baptized.( calls himself a christian)

2)The truly born again believer who fell victim to the devils wiles.
( but is still saved)
Here we have a perfect example of wheat and tares.

I disagree.

The parable of the seeds I think is how Christ tried to teach us that Christians would be like.

There would be those who would never become Christians. Although the seed was scattered, the word presented, the seed was eaten up by birds.

There would be those who become Christians, but like a seed planted in shallow soil, they would start to grow, but be unable to put down roots and die. That does not mean God disowned them. This would be one of those Christian who find themselves in Hell. Free will. God lets His children choose. Nothing changes that.

And there would be those that would grow and thrive.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

In response to post # 1046 by Ozzie,

Hi Ozzie,

Quote:
MariaG]Thanks for the explanation. I am confident of my salvation. In fact I would even say I know I am going to heaven.
On what basis? Maria, you’re not saved by believing you’re saved. Nor are you going to Heaven simply because you’re convinced you’re going there. You’re saved and your citizenship is in Heaven because you’ve believed in the only begotten Son of God, and because of that faith IN Christ God saved you:

You make some serious assumptions about my salvation and my beliefs. Why is it so hard for you to believe that a Catholic can “believe on the Lord” and be confident in their salvation? How can you read my heart from a post that is trying to use the “same language” by using confidence and assurance of salvation and now somehow I just believe I am saved with nothing to do with Christ?

Point being, it’s God who saves, cleanses us from all sins, redeems us and reconciles us to Himself through Christ, not you.

Never in any of my posts have I denied that salvation is a free gift from God. Please stop implying that I have. I have repeatedly said Catholics do not earn their way to heaven. You are the one who cannot seem to understand this basic fact.

Quote:
The difference is that in the Church that I learned about confidence of salvation, they believed that you could choose to walk away from God. In fact, walk away from your salvation.
But they never understood who it was who actually saved them. They were under the unbiblical impression that it was their faith that saved them and their lack of faithfulness could “un-save” them. But it’s God who does the saving through faith in Christ, and God doesn’t walk away from those whom He saved, those whom He redeemed (purchased) through Christ’s blood.

I disagree. No one is denying that only God Saves through Christ except you who are bearing false witness against fellow Christians everywhere. Most Christians do not believe that you can become a Christian, but then “live like the devil” and still go to heaven.

Please try to refrain from telling me what is in my heart. I find it offensive and arrogant.

Truly, may God bless and keep you,

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Post # 1072

Sorry for butting in!

Phil

Butting in would imply that your comments are not welcome. Please feel free to give your :twocents: anytime.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

post # 1076 by exrc

Thank God Luther saw his sin the way God saw it, and convicted him to realize that all sins are mortal.

But this view contradicts Scripture. All sin is not deadly.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by exrc
**Can’t you see that you’re on the road to self righteousness? If you don’t put your total trust in Christ to save you completely, then you are trusting in your own ability to become worthy of being saved.

posted by Phil
False. She needs to remain in Him and she’s all set. Prayer, Sacraments, Service and Fellowship help perpetuate and strengthen this relationship.

posted by exrc
This is still your ability, and your own work.

Do you really think you can call yourself a Christian and not pray? Do you really think you can* be* a Christian and not pray?How can you get to really know someone if you don’t talk to them?

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[Pax]

Ozzie:

…
Hell is for the UN-believers. No one goes to Hell because they’ve sinned.
Ozzie,

Much of this has been covered in prior posts and your position was utterly refuted.

Yes, hell may be for unbelievers but it is also for unrepentant sinners. Here are some of the things that scripture says about repentance. First of all our being born again, (i.e. justification) which is a clear gift of God (something you have denied), is for sins previously committed. This is made clear in Romans 3:25 where it says, “…whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed”

Catholics refer to all of this as our “initial justification.” Thereafter, we are to avoid sin at all costs. Typically, we sometimes fall into sin. It is because of this that we read in 1 John 1:8-10 " If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." When John said this he was talking to those who believe, and would not tell them this if “once they were saved they were always saved.” Remember, this same apostle wrote the Book of Revelation, and in Rev 21:27 it clearly states that, " nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood,…"

So what about the rest of scripture? Try the following:

Luke 13:3
No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all perish as they did.

Rom 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Gal 6:7-9
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow. If you sow to your own flesh, you will reap corruption from the flesh; but if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap eternal life from the Spirit. So let us not grow weary in doing what is right, for we will reap at harvest time, if we do not give up

Rom 2:6-7
For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Rom. 6:23
For the wages of sin is death,

Acts 8:13-22
Even Simon himself believed,…
Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, …
But Peter said to him, "Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!
You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.

2 Corinthians 12:20-21
For I fear that perhaps I may come and find you not what I wish, and that you may find me not what you wish; that perhaps there may be quarreling, jealousy, anger, selfishness, slander, gossip, conceit, and disorder. I fear that when I come again my God may humble me before you, and I may have to mourn over many of those who sinned before **and have not repented ** of the impurity, immorality, and licentiousness which they have practiced.

Now I could go on but that really isn’t necessary because it is clear that we must continue to repent of new sins. We’ve covered it before and we have now covered it some more. Your denials are simply that and they run contrary to scripture and even common sense.

 

[Philthy]

exrc:
The conditional is **confessing **Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart.Thats all! This is a **present **conditional, not future.

Your problem is that you are not believing this promise fully, that’s the key.

The only key here is that you can’t swallow the implications of the very verse you quote: I believe Jesus is Lord. I belive God raised Him from the Dead. Therefrore I am saved. All the rest you impose is simply your legalistic junk and I don’t want it. Again, Paul did NOT place the restrictions that you are placing: namely, “full” understanding, or “perfect” belief, or “full” belief according to some unspecified criteria. Deal with it. Listen how he finsishes this off: Rom10:13 "“everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved” How great is that Dan?! Can I just take this verse and run with it? You know in your heart that I can’t, and you also know the same to be true of Rom 10:9-10. But the concept of faith alone will lead a lot of people to do exactly that, sure of there salvation. When verse 13 is taken in the proper context it’s easy to see that the emphasis is on the EVERYONE. Not just Jews, but Greeks and others as well. It wasn’t menat to say “call on the Lord and you will be saved” as if the entire NT only needed this one statement. This statement still must be understood in the fullness on Scripture – as the entire Book of Romans must be.

exrc:
Regardless how you dress it up, your salvation is dependent on how well you can obey the law, and make yourself available to the RCC’s provision for the atonement of your sins.God does not show up at your door on Sunday with a RC priest and make you participate in mass, and confession, it is of your own volition. Your behavior can cancel your salvation, or enable it. You must become worthy of either. Why can’t you see this?
Your salvation is dependent on your work, this is your own belief biting you in the butt, because it contradicts Eph. 2:8&9.

Because what you claim is false and quite silly. I believe faith in Christ cannot be separated from a life of loving Christ. It is action in addition to attitude. Paul called it “faith working through love”. Again, a call to ACTION. James also spoke directly to this: “What good is it my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?” James 2:14 Christ did say, “Whoever has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me.” Again, ACTION constitutes true faith, true love. When you say “your behavior can cancel your salvation” I would say that “my behavior” is what actually constitutes my faith - the evidence not only to others, but to myself as well - that I ACTUALLY have faith in Jesus, and he lives in me. When love no longer flows from alledged “faith” in Christ that “faith” no longer exists. I don’t live in paralyzing fear of this as a reality, rather I take heed and humble myself; ever devoted to growing in faith through love in action; “lest I myself fail to finish the race.” And it is all possible, as Eph 2:8-9 points out, by Grace.

exrc:
10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you **confess **and are saved.

Present tense.

I agree. But all of Scripture leads me to believe: I have been saved, I am saved, and I will be saved. The first two are given; the last one is my confident hope.

Phil

 

[Catherine_S]

Pax:

Dan,

Perhaps we will simply have to “agree to disagree.” You and I are looking through different lenses. You are using a lens provided by your denomination and I am using a Catholic one when looking at scripture.

Naturally, I believe the Catholic one to be correct and you assume yours to be the same. You may believe that I am blind and lacking in the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I could make the same claim toward you. We could go on endlessly in this type of an exchange. One of the things you should keep in mind in this regard is that everybody makes claims for context, exegesis, guidance by the Holy Spirit and many other things to support their position within Protestant circles yet their are endless disagreements therein. You may be convinced that you are guided by the Holy Spirit, and I’m sure that Ozzie thinks that he is too. The problem is that everybody thinks they are guided by the Holy Spirit and yet disagreements run rampant.

The different divisions, factions, denominations, interpretations, opinions on context and exegesis are all examples that are contrary to the unity described and prayed for by Jesus in the gospel of John chapter 17. Still everyone claims to go by scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Our discussions clearly show that the guidance of the Holy Spirit isn’t working in the way most people think. If it were then the Holy Spirit would be responsible for chaos.

You consider the Catholic Church to be a millstone around our necks, but it is the Catholic Church that is preserving the truth. If you know history and will honestly face the truth of Christian historical teaching you will see that the Church is indeed right. The very existence of the Catholic Church and its “constant” teaching for over two thousand years is a powerful work of Christ in our midst. It is the promise of Jesus that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

The Church and its teachings are not a burden but a joy. They come from God and cannot be anything but what He planned them to be. Yes, there are sinners great and small in the church but the Church in time will be as scripture says, “without spot or wrinkle.”

God is Love and those who remain in Love remain in God and God in them…there is no Love without Freedom there is no Freedom without Responsibility. God has written His words upon our Hearts… past feeling or thinking**…to the deepest part of our being. Jesus Christ opened the way** to the Father by His death on the Cross…He is the Truth the Light and His Holy Spirit will always guide us through…Scripture…Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium. There is no cheap grace**…**to become aware in our hearts of the **Gift **that was given and what Christ suffered and indured on our behalf.…and knowing that our sin put Him on the Cross …will always prevent us from taking sin lightly. Joy and deep sorrow lead to sincere repentance and deep gratitude. God is also a God of justice …we can not do as we please and believe that there will be no consequences. A lukewarm faith desires Easter but not Good Friday… it wants to separate these thruths to believe we have already arrived! They deceive themselves and lack humilty. Dieing to oneself to become more and more like Jesus Christ in our ability to love is a long slow process…this transformation will not be completed on earth…and may not take place at all… if we block God’s grace by taking the sin…which we choose… which we allow by our own actions…to hinder God’s work in us. For in fact we reject Him and His way and go our own way.A very old but ever new story !

Shalom
Catherine

 

[Ozzie]

Philthy:

The second question implies a misunderstanding of confession from a Catholic perspective. One does not need to be conscious of all their specific sins to confess them and be forgiven. The ones they are conscious of, the ones laid on their hearts by the holy Spirit, must be confessed to be forgiven, the rest are forgiven as well.

That may be RC teaching, but you’ll not find any such teaching in God’s Word. 1 Jn. 1:9 says “If we confess (acknowledge) our sins He is faithful and just (righteous) to forgives us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” As I said before, this is the only place in Scripture that confessing of sins, soteriologically, is presented. However, it says absolutely NOTHING about confessing only the sins you are conscious of and then, “presto,” all the others are automatically forgiven. You cannot get that teaching from 1 Jn. 1:9. You’d have to find it elsewhere, otherwise you have no Biblical grounds for such an assertion. Good luck finding it.

I know you want to avoid it, for the sake of defending Rome, but 1 Jn. 1:9 is stated in contrast with those who deny they have any sin at all “and the truth is not in them,” calling God a liar (verses 8 & 10). They refuse to believe the basic premise of the Gospel message itself, that all men are sinners and in need of redemption. The confession here is a confession (acknowledgment) of personal sinfulness, not an on going confessing of sins throughout one’s life. One cannot believe unto salvation unless he first acknowledges he is a sinner, that sin is in him, and he is in dire need of complete, divine forgiveness and cleansing. Based on the preponderance of Scriptural evidence, this is done by God at the time of personal belief in Christ through the complete and finished, redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross. That’s the whole point of His sacrifice, my friend; “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (Jn. 1:29).

Phil, have you ever, by faith, come to Jesus Christ to receive LIFE (Jn. 5:38-40), realizing you are dead in your trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1-10)? Have you ever actually believed in Him for your personal salvation, confessed Him to be not a potential Savior, but your actual Savior? We could go back and forth until we both die, but until you, by faith, accept Christ as your actual Savior, nothing will change. This can be done privately, right now, in fact. He’ll hear your prayer and honor it for the sake of His Son.

 

[Cubby]

Ozzie:

Phil, have you ever, by faith, come to Jesus Christ to receive LIFE (Jn. 5:38-40), realizing you are dead in your trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1-10)? Have you ever actually believed in Him for your personal salvation, confessed Him to be not a potential Savior, but your actual Savior? We could go back and forth until we both die, but until you, by faith, accept Christ as your actual Savior, nothing will change. This can be done privately, right now, in fact. He’ll hear your prayer and honor it for the sake of His Son.

Why is “life” capitalized? Does the First Church of Ozzie teach that Catholics don’t have life?!? Oh, and there is another way that you can change things Oz, …RCIA!

The truth is that the power to forgive sins was granted to Saint Peter from Jesus Christ and has been passed on through the church:

From the Catechism:

1444 In imparting to his apostles his own power to forgive sins the Lord also gives them the authority to reconcile sinners with the Church. This ecclesial dimension of their task is expressed most notably in Christ’s solemn words to Simon Peter: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."45 "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head."46
1445 The words bind and loose mean: whomever you exclude from your communion, will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion, God will welcome back into his. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God.

45⇒ Mt 16:19; cf. ⇒ Mt 18:18; ⇒ 28:16-20.

46 LG 22 # 2.

Peace Out!

Cubby

 

[RBushlow]

Ozzie:

Philthy:

The second question implies a misunderstanding of confession from a Catholic perspective. One does not need to be conscious of all their specific sins to confess them and be forgiven. The ones they are conscious of, the ones laid on their hearts by the holy Spirit, must be confessed to be forgiven, the rest are forgiven as well.

That may be RC teaching,

Once again, we are not all Roman (Some of us are Byzantine, Maronite, Meklite, etc.) Please use the correct term i.e. The Catholic Church.

but you’ll not find any such teaching in God’s Word. 1 Jn. 1:9 says “If we confess (acknowledge) our sins He is faithful and just (righteous) to forgives us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

This in no way conflicts with what was said above. You are basing this on your misinterpretation of Catholic beliefs. If you persist in your preconceived opinions as to what Catholics believe, you cannot grow in knowledge. Please try to understand what Catholics actually believe. Then if you disagree, we have a basis to begin to understand what each of us is saying. May the Holy Spirit touch your heart, open your eyes, and reveal the Pillar and Foundation of Truth to you.

May God bless and keep you.

Yours in Christ.

 

[Philthy]

Ozzie:

That may be RC teaching, but you’ll not find any such teaching in God’s Word.

Actually it was just a response to Dan who claimed that we would need to be in a confessional forever to confess all of our sins. And I made the statement in that context. I was not trying to derive it from 1John. The concept of them all being forgiven anyhow, without confessing them BTW, is the very one you promote - No?

Ozzie:
I know you want to avoid it, for the sake of defending Rome

It’s always sort of a relief to hear you speak like this - I know this doesn’t come from a man of God, and I can therefore comfortably ignore everything that you say…

Ozzie:
, but 1 Jn. 1:9 is stated in contrast with those who deny they have any sin at all “and the truth is not in them,” … The confession here is a confession (acknowledgment) of personal sinfulness, not an on going confessing of sins throughout one’s life. One cannot believe unto salvation unless he first acknowledges he is a sinner, that sin is in him, and he is in dire need of complete, divine forgiveness and cleansing. Based on the preponderance of Scriptural evidence, this is done by God at the time of personal belief in Christ through the complete and finished, redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross. That’s the whole point of His sacrifice, my friend; “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (Jn. 1:29).

You make some excellent points Ozzie and it would appear that you have the forgiveness of sins at the point of conversion wrapped up in a tight package. I told you I was going to read the NT in light of this discussion to see where it leads. I started in Matthew and here is the first verse that seemed to have anything to do with the topic:
From the lips of our Lord in the Book of Matthew Chapter 6:
“and forgive us our debts(=sins, metaphorically) as we forgive our debtors; and do not subject us to the final test, but deliver us from the evil one. If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your father forgive your transgressions.” I don’t know Ozzie, this doesn’t seem to fit with the concept of all the forgiveness being taken care of at the time of conversion. I know this isn’t within the context of confession, but it does seem relevant to forgiveness of sins (which was the original topic). Do you think this somehow doesn’t apply to Christians?

Phil, have you ever, by faith, come to Jesus Christ to receive LIFE (Jn. 5:38-40), realizing you are dead in your trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1-10)? Have you ever actually believed in Him for your personal salvation, confessed Him to be not a potential Savior, but your actual Savior?

AbsolutelyYes to all of the above!

We could go back and forth until we both die, but until you, by faith, accept Christ as your actual Savior, nothing will change. This can be done privately, right now, in fact. He’ll hear your prayer and honor it for the sake of His Son.
Thanks Ozzie - I appreciate this - honestly. God bless you! This is how you might actually aid the holy Spirit - with love, not with your earlier vindictiveness. And I have accepted Him as my actual Savior, both privately and publicly.

Phil

 

[Philthy]

Ozzie:

That may be RC teaching, but you’ll not find any such teaching in God’s Word.

Actually it was just a response to Dan who claimed that we would need to be in a confessional forever to confess all of our sins. And I made the statement in that context. I was not trying to derive it from 1John. The concept of them all being forgiven anyhow, without confessing them BTW, is the very one you promote - No?

Ozzie:
I know you want to avoid it, for the sake of defending Rome

It’s always sort of a relief to hear you speak like this - I know this doesn’t come from a man of God, and I can therefore comfortably ignore everything that you say…

Ozzie:
, but 1 Jn. 1:9 is stated in contrast with those who deny they have any sin at all “and the truth is not in them,” The confession here is a confession (acknowledgment) of personal sinfulness, not an on going confessing of sins throughout one’s life. One cannot believe unto salvation unless he first acknowledges he is a sinner, that sin is in him, and he is in dire need of complete, divine forgiveness and cleansing. Based on the preponderance of Scriptural evidence, this is done by God at the time of personal belief in Christ through the complete and finished, redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross. That’s the whole point of His sacrifice, my friend; “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (Jn. 1:29).

You make some excellent points Ozzie and it would appear that you have the forgiveness of sins at the point of conversion wrapped up in a tight package. I told you I was going to read the NT in light of this discussion to see where it leads. I started in Matthew and here is the first verse that seemed to have anything to do with the topic:
From the lips of our Lord in the Book of Matthew Chapter 6:
“and forgive us our debts(=sins, metaphorically) as we forgive our debtors; and do not subject us to the final test, but deliver us from the evil one. If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your father forgive your transgressions.” I don’t know Ozzie, this doesn’t seem to fit with the concept of all the forgiveness being taken care of at the time of conversion. I know this isn’t within the context of confession, but it does seem relevant to forgiveness of sins (which was the original topic). Do you think this somehow doesn’t apply to Christians?

Phil, have you ever, by faith, come to Jesus Christ to receive LIFE (Jn. 5:38-40), realizing you are dead in your trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1-10)? Have you ever actually believed in Him for your personal salvation, confessed Him to be not a potential Savior, but your actual Savior?

AbsolutelyYes to all of the above!

We could go back and forth until we both die, but until you, by faith, accept Christ as your actual Savior, nothing will change. This can be done privately, right now, in fact. He’ll hear your prayer and honor it for the sake of His Son.
Thanks Ozzie - I appreciate this - honestly. God bless you! This is how you might actually aid the holy Spirit - with love, not with your earlier vindictiveness. And I have accepted Him as my actual Savior, both privately and publicly.

Phil

 

[Philthy]

Ozzie:

You’re reading your theology into the story. The son never “rejected” his father, he only foolishly squandered his inheritance. Your attitude is more like the brother’s.

Oh Ozzie - be a little bit more objective. The points WBB raised were excellent ones. The son rejected the father but eventually came back and repented and the happy ending. One has to ask himself, “What would have happened if the son had not returned home ?” Would he not have forfeited everything that the father had in store for him?

Phil

 

[Ozzie]

Pax:

QUOTE=Ozzie “Hell is for the UN-believers. No one goes to Hell because they’ve sinned.” Ozzie, Much of this has been covered in prior posts and your position was utterly refuted.

But not Biblically!

First of all our being born again, (i.e. justification) which is a clear gift of God (something you have denied), is for sins previously committed.(/QUOTE] Well, I certainly don’t deny the Biblical revelation that justification is a *gift *(Rom. 3:24). In fact, I’ve written extensive posts on this thread regarding this most important doctrine. What I do deny is the exclusive RC doctrine called “*initial *justification.” Exclusive because it’s found nowhere in God’s written Word.

This is made clear in Romans 3:25 where it says, “…whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed”

Pax, again totally out of context. When Paul says God “passed over” sins previously committed he was not at all referring to an individual’s sins prior to baptism (for the RC), or personal faith in Christ (for an evangelical), but the whole sin history of man prior to the cross of Christ, before He publicly displayed His Son as a propitiation for ALL sins, a public demonstration of His (God’s) righteousness. *On the cross God dealt with the past sins, the present sins, and the future sins of all mankind *(Jn. 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21). And one could actually say, until the cross of Christ all O.T. believers were forgiven on credit.

 

[Ozzie]

Philthy:

Oh Ozzie - be a little bit more objective. The points WBB raised were excellent ones. The son rejected the father but eventually came back and repented and the happy ending. One has to ask himself, “What would have happened if the son had not returned home ?” Would he not have forfeited everything that the father had in store for him? Phil

"What if"…“what if”…what if." Accept the story as Christ gave it. He didn’t supply us with an infinte amout of “what ifs” tied to the story so we are to learn based on what He taught there. The religious leaders (Sadducees) in Christ’s day constantly tried to trip Him up with “what ifs.” It was their way of rejecting what He taught. Such as the man who died after having many wives. Jesus simply responded that they did not understand the Scriptures nor the power of God. I can safely say you fail to understand the power of God to forever save sinners through the cross of Christ. Rather than constantly reach in your magic hat of “what ifs,” how about taking God at His word regarding the cross of Christ and His finished work there on your behalf?

 

[Philthy]

Philthy:

Still a little shell-shocked that Ozzie let “we don’t believe in
Christ to get our sins forgiven” get posted…

To which Ozzie replied…

Ozzie:

I think I actually said, no one comes to Jesus Christ to get his sins forgiven. They come to Him to receive LIFE (see Jn. 5:38-40). And I concluded that this is what Jn. 6 is all about.

Afraid not my friend. Im a legalist - remember? I wouldn’t let words slip my mind. Here is what you ACTUALLY said Ozzie. From Post #912:

Ozzie:

Sorry for butting in here, but one does not believe in Christ to "get his sins forgiven." Sins were forgiven at the time of Christ’s once-for-all sacrifice 2000 years ago:

Seems like I did read your post pretty carefully after all - more carefully than you did when you posted it. No problem. Now if you look at the two rediculous statements you actually made you can easily see how one could get confused. Here again( and this is now the fifth time I have to explain between you and Dan the ground we’ve already covered) we can see where one could draw the conclusion that you believe all sins were forgiven for all of mankind (believers and unbelievers) at the time of the crucifixion. Do you see it now?
The other implication that came from this discussion is the reality that although Christ"once for all" sacrifice “is finished” in one sense, it is unfinished in the sense that THE APPLICATION OF THE FORGIVENESS HE MERITED DID NOT OCCUR 2000 YEARS AGO. IT DOES NOT OCCUR UNTIL WE COME TO FAITH IN CHRIST. This in no way detracts from the completeness of Christ’s sacrifice, it doesn’t mean we are “recrucifying Christ” For the life of me I don’t why you two keep messing with this. This is the conclusion I said you would have lambasted me for making. But it turns out we all agree on this.
The point where our theologies actually bifurcate is where you remain convinced that “the preponderance” of Scripture teaches that this forgiveness is an instantaneous, complete and permanent event at the time one comes to faith in Christ. I have maintained that Scripture teaches that Forgiveness is not a one time event (though it does occur at the time one comes to faith) but that it continues to occur as we ask for forgiveness of new sins. It seems like such a minor thing.

Phil

 

[george_eastlake]

St. Ignatius of Antioch (first Christian settlement) in the first century has this to say- " You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbetery as you would the Apostles. Reverance the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he appoints. ***Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is there is the Catholic Church." ***Ignatius was a contemporary and is also referred to as a “hearer” of St. John, yes the St. John. Now this is a fact. Sola fide and the like, scriptura, are novel ideas. The Catholic Church put together the canon of scripture, did they not? Hey protesters, I mean protestants, this world we live in protests anything true that doesn’t mesh with our personal view upheld and fueled by bad information from well meaning folk. Like our parents or others close to us. This Church that is Catholic (universal) needs more good Catholics to help itspread and there ain’t no better Catholic that a protestant convert. Be strong, don’t worry about the repercussions and do the homework…read the early fathers and anything else Catholic you can get you’re hands on…you have nothing to lose, least of all your salvation. Stay close to God in prayer and ask for his help. The Bible says about six or seven ways to be saved…which is it.
"Unless you…
Peace and love to all
Geo

 

[WBB]

Ozzie:

You’re reading your theology into the story. The son never “rejected” his father, he only foolishly squandered his inheritance. Your attitude is more like the brother’s.

Such an easy way to dismiss me. I am reading MY theology into the story. Which I could respond to you in the exact same way, that you are reading YOUR theology into the story. Oh, that’s right…YOURS is the correct one because, well, why? Oh yeah, because you said so. Silly me.