I am a traditionally-minded Catholic who LOVES the Pauline Mass

[Todd_Winkels]

As a recent convert, I find the debate between the EF and the NO to be puzzling…I go to both masses (and I am a member of a Latin Mass Community).

Yet I find both to be profoundly devotional, even the teen life masses which I enjoy very much. The only “problem” I experience with the EF is the second half of the mass is mostly silent, but this can be effective for personal prayer.

 

[I_Believe]

I know of many “traditionally-minded Catholics” and absolutely no “Traditional Catholics.”

Hi Praxis, I am a Traditional Catholic. Now you know one

 

[mattwcu]

Todd -

I converted last year and was brought in through a TLM parish. I joined because of the example of the people there. They were much more devoted and the difference in the communities was plainly obvious. I actually had a friend who parish hopped with me, even to Byzantine Liturgies, so I was very lucky. I do play the organ for the OF on Saturdays again as I did when I was a protestant.

Also, being a musician, I’m not puzzled the slightest.

 

[I_Believe]

As a recent convert, I find the debate between the EF and the NO to be puzzling…I go to both masses (and I am a member of a Latin Mass Community).

Yet I find both to be profoundly devotional, even the teen life masses which I enjoy very much. The only “problem” I experience with the EF is the second half of the mass is mostly silent, but this can be effective for personal prayer.

Yes, Sacred Silence

 

[bilop]

The expanded cycle is inherently superior. There really is no way around that truth…

I expressed a logical opinion as to why the smaller cycle is better. Your curt dismissal makes me question whether you have an axe to grind.

God Bless

 

[mattwcu]

“Sacred Silence”

Since I’m in the schola, I’ve found that my participation at Mass is limited. Weird to say huh? But when I go to the daily silent low mass however I am able to fully participate, missal in hand, and prayerfully. The OF doesn’t allow really allow for this since there is so much call and response going on even in OF daily masses.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Todd -

I converted last year and was brought in through a TLM parish. I joined because of the example of the people there. They were much more devoted and the difference in the communities was plainly obvious. I actually had a friend who parish hopped with me, even to Byzantine Liturgies, so I was very lucky. I do play the organ for the OF on Saturdays again as I did when I was a protestant.

Also, being a musician, I’m not puzzled the slightest.

I’m also a musician, and I mainly play secular music (I’m a guitarist mainly, also a pianist).

I love the guitar. I love to play in bars/coffeehouses/etc,

But I can’t STAND it when that same type of music is played at Mass. If I wanted to hear some cool tunes, I’d go to a bar, not to the Church. When I go to Church, I want to hear Sacred Music.

People who want to listen to pop songs can get on itunes any time they want. No need to incorporate it into the liturgy.

 

[I_Believe]

“Sacred Silence”

Since I’m in the schola, I’ve found that my participation at Mass is limited. Weird to say huh? But when I go to the daily silent low mass however I am able to fully participate, missal in hand, and prayerfully. The OF doesn’t allow really allow for this since there is so much call and response going on even in OF daily masses.

I attend both forms. I understand what you are saying.

I don’t see anything non-Catholic about the NO, but I’ve come to see it as a bit too instructive. The hand and arm gestures to tell us when to stand. The way we are lead into prayer, for example the Our Father.

Anyhow, you are one of the few here that attends the OF, yet understands that the faithful participate fully by assisting at the EF. Hat’s off

 

[mattwcu]

Actually, its in reverse. I was brought in through the TLM and am a member of an FSSP parish. I play the organ for an OF once per week. I can see some benefits in the OF but there are reasons I attend the TLM of course.

 

[Praxis]

Then you have not been reading history.

I certainly have. Unlike some however, I stay away from historical fiction.

 

[SJP]

It’s also important to try to understand the history of the Mass. Those that would like to imply the current EF is a 2,000 year old linear development of the Mass are simply wrong. While wonderful in itself, it’s basis dates from the Middles Ages and not the early church.

Can you please provide evidence for this claim.

Thank you.

 

[Praxis]

I expressed a logical opinion as to why the smaller cycle is better. Your curt dismissal makes me question whether you have an axe to grind.

God Bless

I didn’t find your opinion to be accurate. Aside from the far greater exposure to the Sacred Scriptures (reason enough to make it FAR superior) I have another reason to know the new cycles are superior to the old one.

The Church gave us the new one when she could have simply given us the old one.

She could very well have used the existing “lectionary” in the OF as it was obviously available to her but She chose to make the effort to do something that was better than the existing.

I have seen many attempt (from every angle) to sell certain parts of the Mass (be it the OF or the EF) as being superior. I have never however seen a weaker argument for retaining what is clearly an inferior aspect of the EF.

 

[Praxis]

Actually, its in reverse. I was brought in through the TLM and am a member of an FSSP parish. I play the organ for an OF once per week. I can see some benefits in the OF but there are reasons I attend the TLM of course.

Similarly there are reasons I attend the EF 1-2 times a month, the OF about 12 times/month and the DL about 4 times per month.

Convenience is not a factor.

 

[Praxis]

“Sacred Silence”

Since I’m in the schola, I’ve found that my participation at Mass is limited. Weird to say huh? But when I go to the daily silent low mass however I am able to fully participate, missal in hand, and prayerfully. The OF doesn’t allow really allow for this since there is so much call and response going on even in OF daily masses.

Oh that’s simply not true. The OF is clearly superior when it comes to participation – and I’m not talking about verbal responses either. I am talking about an eyes-closed, hardcore focus on what the celebrant is saying and not a focus on getting the ribbon out of the way so I can follow the Mass in my missalette or licking my finger as I prepare to flip to the next page.

I do agree though – there is a very special sort of nourishment that comes with attending either a daily OF without music or a EF low Mass…

 

[bilop]

I didn’t find your opinion to be accurate. Aside from the far greater exposure to the Sacred Scriptures (reason enough to make it FAR superior) I have another reason to know the new cycles are superior to the old one.

The Church gave us the new one when she could have simply given us the old one.

She could very well have used the existing “lectionary” in the OF as it was obviously available to her but She chose to make the effort to do something that was better than the existing.

I have seen many attempt (from every angle) to sell certain parts of the Mass (be it the OF or the EF) as being superior. I have never however seen a weaker argument for retaining what is clearly an inferior aspect of the EF.

How can an opinion be accurate? My opinion is as valid as anyone else’s

My opinion, as well as that of others here, is that the old lectionary is superior.

I believe it is better catechesis for the crucial gospel passages and epistles to be read and preached on more frequently.

The current lectionary has lots of OT readings that are just not crucial to understanding the faith.

Far better to have annual repetition of the gospels and epistles stressing key doctrinal points.

God Bless

 

[bilop]

Oh that’s simply not true. The OF is clearly superior when it comes to participation – and I’m not talking about verbal responses either. I am talking about an eyes-closed, hardcore focus on what the celebrant is saying and not a focus on getting the ribbon out of the way so I can follow the Mass in my missalette or licking my finger as I prepare to flip to the next page.

I do agree though – there is a very special sort of nourishment that comes with attending either a daily OF without music or a EF low Mass…

Again, how can you dismiss someone’s OPINION?

I, personally, get very little out of eyes closed listening.

I get far more out of reading along, OF or EF. However, I find the language and poetry of the EF much more inspiring.

Domine non sum dignus ut intres sub tectum meum, sed tantum dic verbo et anima sanibitur mea (3x) has a poetry that the current form lacks (as well as being a mistranslation).

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Agnes Dei qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.

It goes on and on. The OF in Latin is better, but still lacks the beauty and poetry of the EF.

Remember the EF represents gradual improvement dating back to Gregory the Great (6th c. AD) and even earlier.

God Bless

 

[Praxis]

Again, how can you dismiss someone’s OPINION?

I, personally, get very little out of eyes closed listening.

I get far more out of reading along, OF or EF. However, I find the language and poetry of the EF much more inspiring.

Domine non sum dignus ut intres sub tectum meum, sed tantum dic verbo et anima sanibitur mea (3x) has a poetry that the current form lacks (as well as being a mistranslation).

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Agnes Dei qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.

It goes on and on. The OF in Latin is better, but still lacks the beauty and poetry of the EF.

Remember the EF represents gradual improvement dating back to Gregory the Great (6th c. AD) and even earlier.

God Bless

Because you offer it as fact not opinion. If those are your opinions, that’s fine – you are entitled to them. It does not mean they are truth though.

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxis View Post
It’s also important to try to understand the history of the Mass. Those that would like to imply the current EF is a 2,000 year old linear development of the Mass are simply wrong. While wonderful in itself, it’s basis dates from the Middles Ages and not the early church.

Can you please provide evidence for this claim.

Thank you.

---

Is there going to be a response to SJP.

 

[PatrickJT914]

Oh, wow there sure is a lot of interesting stuff to make a comment about. Maybe I’ll address these one at a time, without hopefully going too long in one or two large posts.
With that being said, this 1st post will try to stick to the original intent of the OP. Yes, I too can define myself as traditionally-minded Catholic who LOVES the Pauline Mass. What does that mean? To me it means the following:

1.) Jesus Christ,human & divine.Our Lord,Savior,Redeemer, High Priest,the way,the truth and the light. He was born of the Virgin Mary. He died on the cross to free us. He was not married or had children. He rose from the dead, he acsended into heaven. He established his church on Peter, he performed miracles, etc.
2.) One,holy,catholic,apostolic church
3.) The Nicene Creed
4.) Rosary, Saints, Angels, Heaven Purgatory Hell, Satan exists, fallen angels, sacramentals, Sunday obligation, etc.
5.) All the mysteries of he Rosary, the Stations of the Cross
6.) The Trinity and the sign of the cross is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not the modernist PC: Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier. Yes that’s also what they are as well, but not to fill somebodies agenda.
7.) The truth of the Holy Bible.
8.) Mary as Queen, ever Virgin, blessed among women, Immaculate Conception, her Assumption, she did not have other physical children, Mother of us all, her appearences (officially sanctioned ones), etc.
9.) ALL 2000 YEARS OF CATHOLIC CHURCH history.
10.) Reform of Vatican II, the CCC.
11.) The acknowledgement and acceptance of both the TLM AND the NO, as two legit forms of the Roman Rite. As well as the Eastern Rites of the church.
12.) All things Catholic.
Any questions about my loyality, my faith, my love, my commitment, my Catholism, just because myself and others believe in the reforms of Vatican II and post council documents that change the liturgy, empower the laity (instead of being just being Pray, Pay and Obey robotic Catholics.) etc. And please don’t try and bait me into a tit for tat, back and forth tennis match of what’s licit or illict.

Disclaimer: I wish to apologize to any and all people I may have angered or offended by my last paragraph. It was not meant to be uncharatable, or unkind to my fellow brother and sister Catholics. I also wish to apologize to the Moderators, as well. My reason was I got carried away with my emotions. Again I apologize. If this warrants a warning from the Moderators, I’ll understand and accept the decision.

 

[the_phoenix]

Dear Praxis,

My mother is also a traditionally-minded Catholic who LOVES the Pauline Mass. In fact, you attend the EF (Latin Mass) way more than she does (I don’t think she’s ever attended a Latin Mass since they changed over to the Pauline form), and she might consider you just a little unusual for “going to a Mass where you don’t speak the language.”

Now me, on the other hand, I’m a traditionally-minded Catholic who LOVES the Latin Mass, and also greatly appreciates a reverent Pauline Mass and belongs to a parish where the Mass is exclusively in English except for maybe a hymn here or there.

For some reason, I can appreciate the Mass more INTENSELY when it’s in Latin. And I think the reason for this transcends the mere fact that I studied three years of Latin in high school and Spanish, French, and Japanese in college and so have a fondness for languages. Now I choose not to follow along in the missal, and if I read the Latin propers, it’s outside of Mass time. It’s just that, to me, God seems to reveal His Presence more easily during the Latin Mass … it’s how God draws me personally to worship, for whatever reason.

Anyways, guess what? My mother and I get along just fine when it comes to Catholicism! She prefers one language, I prefer another, each of us attends the Mass of our choosing, we’re both happy, all is well. (We also live in different states, but the point I’m trying to make is that my mother and I each deeply respect each other’s preference when it comes to the Mass.)

My motto:

Latin for those who want it.
English for those who want it.
Reverence for all.

~~ the phoenix