I am a traditionally-minded Catholic who LOVES the Pauline Mass

[Walking_Home]

Oh yes -lets take a look at some of the “fruits” of the post Vat II empowerment of the laity:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

[4.] “Certainly the liturgical reform inaugurated by the Council has greatly contributed to a more conscious, active and fruitful participation in the Holy Sacrifice of the Altar on the part of the faithful.”[10] Even so, “shadows are not lacking”.[11] In this regard it is not possible to be silent about the abuses, even quite grave ones, against the nature of the Liturgy and the Sacraments as well as the tradition and the authority of the Church, which in our day not infrequently plague liturgical celebrations in one ecclesial environment or another. In some places the perpetration of liturgical abuses has become almost habitual, a fact which obviously cannot be allowed and must cease.

[7.] Not infrequently, abuses are rooted in a false understanding of liberty. Yet God has not granted us in Christ an illusory liberty by which we may do what we wish, but a liberty by which we may do that which is fitting and right.[18] This is true not only of precepts coming directly from God, but also of laws promulgated by the Church, with appropriate regard for the nature of each norm. For this reason, all should conform to the ordinances set forth by legitimate ecclesiastical authority.

[8.] It is therefore to be noted with great sadness that “ecumenical initiatives which are well-intentioned, nevertheless indulge at times in Eucharistic practices contrary to the discipline by which the Church expresses her faith”. Yet the Eucharist “is too great a gift to tolerate ambiguity or depreciation”. It is therefore necessary that some things be corrected or more clearly delineated so that in this respect as well “the Eucharist will continue to shine forth in all its radiant mystery”.

 

[PrayforMallory]

The “split” is only in the eyes of those who wish to fabricate one. I’m not sure what needs to be “worked-out” as there is only one Latin Rite in the Church.

I don’t view the Pauline Mass as “the modern liturgy.” I view it as the best of the Church’s efforts after 2,000 years of existence.

Then aren’t you kind of at odds with Pope Benedict?

 

[PrayforMallory]

Oh, wow there sure is a lot of interesting stuff to make a comment about. Maybe I’ll address these one at a time, without hopefully going too long in one or two large posts.
With that being said, this 1st post will try to stick to the original intent of the OP. Yes, I too can define myself as traditionally-minded Catholic who LOVES the Pauline Mass. What does that mean? To me it means the following:

1.) Jesus Christ,human & divine.Our Lord,Savior,Redeemer, High Priest,the way,the truth and the light. He was born of the Virgin Mary. He died on the cross to free us. He was not married or had children. He rose from the dead, he acsended into heaven. He established his church on Peter, he performed miracles, etc.
2.) One,holy,catholic,apostolic church
3.) The Nicene Creed
4.) Rosary, Saints, Angels, Heaven Purgatory Hell, Satan exists, fallen angels, sacramentals, Sunday obligation, etc.
5.) All the mysteries of he Rosary, the Stations of the Cross
6.) The Trinity and the sign of the cross is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not the modernist PC: Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier. Yes that’s also what they are as well, but not to fill somebodies agenda.
7.) The truth of the Holy Bible.
8.) Mary as Queen, ever Virgin, blessed among women, Immaculate Conception, her Assumption, she did not have other physical children, Mother of us all, her appearences (officially sanctioned ones), etc.
9.) ALL 2000 YEARS OF CATHOLIC CHURCH history.
10.) Reform of Vatican II, the CCC.
11.) The acknowledgement and acceptance of both the TLM AND the NO, as two legit forms of the Roman Rite. As well as the Eastern Rites of the church.
12.) All things Catholic.
Any questions about my loyality, my faith, my love, my commitment, my Catholism, just because myself and others believe in the reforms of Vatican II and post council documents that change the liturgy, empower the laity (instead of being just being Pray, Pay and Obey robotic Catholics.) etc. And please don’t try and bait me into a tit for tat, back and forth tennis match of what’s licit or illict.

Disclaimer: I wish to apologize to any and all people I may have angered or offended by my last paragraph. It was not meant to be uncharatable, or unkind to my fellow brother and sister Catholics. I also wish to apologize to the Moderators, as well. My reason was I got carried away with my emotions. Again I apologize. If this warrants a warning from the Moderators, I’ll understand and accept the decision.

I don’t think anyone is questioning your loyalty, just because you prefer the OF. I think the issue is that for a lot of us, all the things you’ve cited above were never part of our OF experience really.

It’s hard to argue on these forums, because I’ve never been to your Church, and you’ve probably never been to a sloppy guitar Mass celebrated in a half-hearted manner week after week.

The OF has some good things, but I think your argument about history is kind of misleading. The EF has as many historical aspects as the OF, if not more, because it is in Latin.

 

[PrayforMallory]

The counterargument, at least on forums, seems to be that if there is less scripture in the EF, then there is less tradition in the OF.

It’s not as cut and dry as all that.

 

[PrayforMallory]

I certainly have. Unlike some however, I stay away from historical fiction.

Like what? Like works about the different Liturgical movements in the 19th and 20th centuries? If you did, you’d clearly see that these issues go back well before Vatican II, and that this is not an issue we can casually dismiss, regardless of what we prefer.

 

[markadm]

The exposure to the Bible is VASTLY increased in the OF as compared to the EF. That’s not debatable.

Again, I ask did you read the article I linked to?

I am not debating whether there is MORE in the OF, rather HOW it is.

You are providing a pretty good example of some who feels they know better than the Church…

Well, thanks for the insult!

You haven’t taken one second to try and think what I mean, even when I try to explain it.

 

[PatrickJT914]

I don’t think anyone is questioning your loyalty, just because you prefer the OF. I think the issue is that for a lot of us, all the things you’ve cited above were never part of our OF experience really.

It’s hard to argue on these forums, because I’ve never been to your Church, and you’ve probably never been to a sloppy guitar Mass celebrated in a half-hearted manner week after week.

The OF has some good things, but I think your argument about history is kind of misleading. The EF has as many historical aspects as the OF, if not more, because it is in Latin.

Hi PrayforMallory,
First your screen name says to pray for you. Is there anything particular you want us and I to pray for? Everything okay? How about for starters. Lord Jesus I ask you to look after PrayforMallory, grant them your bountiful blessings, a healthy and long life, a happy and joyful spirit, continued love and devotion to you, Your Holy Mother Mary, the Holy Catholic Church. Thank you Lord for the gift and knowledge that PrayforMallory brings to CAF. And the Church says Amen.

I’m was speaking generally about some posters who sometimes make people like myself feel that were not being true Catholics, just because we disagree on some topics. I think maybe we all need to agree to disagee. We have to unite as Catholics and be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Or, just like Jesus prayed to His Father that all maybe one as you and I are one.

Really? Yourself and others haven’t experienced anything I mentioned in my previous post in the OF. Nothing? Wow that is really sad. My personal experience ranges from going to TLM as a small child (Note: I’m soon approaching 50- Sept.). I’ve been to different Masses: Clown, Healing, Home, Native American, Afro-American, Charismatic, Young Adult, Life Teen, Los Angeles Religious Education Congress Closing liturgy, Thankgiving Mass for newly ordained priest and deacon, and others that escape me for now. I’ve found that all these Masses as well as the regular Sunday ones require that we have to be in the proper mentality and a prayerful attitude. If we are not it blocks the Holy Spirit to work in us to help us see the Mass as a wonderful opportunity for reverent worship, glory, honor, praise,adoration, love and devotion to our Lord Jesus Christ. But if we get easily distracted or start to nit pick the Mass, we truly hurt our spiritual life. (Sometimes I do the same things Mea culpa, Mea culpa,) Then Satan has won a little bit.
Sure I’ve heard awful singing (INCLUDING mine,) I keep doing for it for 4 reasons: 1. Full,active and conscious participation 2. The songs move me. 3. He who sings prays twice. 4. If God doesn’t like my voice, He has the power to change it. LOL. In my church I’ve heard a wide range of music from different choirs and directors/leaders/musicians. Let me see if I can remember them all. Gaudete in Latin on Gaudete Sunday- 3rd Sunday of Advent. Hallelujah Chorus, Amazing Grace, Mighty Fortress, well any way. Yes a full range OCP, Spirit and Song, traditional, Praise & Worship, blue grass, folk, Beatles, Latin, and others. Instruments heard organ, drums, saxophone, trumpet, flute, piano, keyboard, rainstick, bongos, guitar (electric and regular), chimes, tamborine, and others I don’t know the names of. But to me it doesn’t really matter, because my role at Mass is not to be a music critic. My role is to be a faithful attentive and participating member of the Catholic Church in communion with the rest of the community. (Although, music and instrumentation done well is better.)

You know before I read your reply to my post. I had started to work on another post about history of the liturgy, until I hit the wrong key and lost it. I can’t get it back.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Hi PrayforMallory,
First your screen name says to pray for you. Is there anything particular you want us and I to pray for? Everything okay? How about for starters. Lord Jesus I ask you to look after PrayforMallory, grant them your bountiful blessings, a healthy and long life, a happy and joyful spirit, continued love and devotion to you, Your Holy Mother Mary, the Holy Catholic Church. Thank you Lord for the gift and knowledge that PrayforMallory brings to CAF. And the Church says Amen.

I’m was speaking generally about some posters who sometimes make people like myself feel that were not being true Catholics, just because we disagree on some topics. I think maybe we all need to agree to disagee. We have to unite as Catholics and be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Or, just like Jesus prayed to His Father that all maybe one as you and I are one.

Really? Yourself and others haven’t experienced anything I mentioned in my previous post in the OF. Nothing? Wow that is really sad. My personal experience ranges from going to TLM as a small child (Note: I’m soon approaching 50- Sept.). I’ve been to different Masses: Clown, Healing, Home, Native American, Afro-American, Charismatic, Young Adult, Life Teen, Los Angeles Religious Education Congress Closing liturgy, Thankgiving Mass for newly ordained priest and deacon, and others that escape me for now. I’ve found that all these Masses as well as the regular Sunday ones require that we have to be in the proper mentality and a prayerful attitude. If we are not it blocks the Holy Spirit to work in us to help us see the Mass as a wonderful opportunity for reverent worship, glory, honor, praise,adoration, love and devotion to our Lord Jesus Christ. But if we get easily distracted or start to nit pick the Mass, we truly hurt our spiritual life. (Sometimes I do the same things Mea culpa, Mea culpa,) Then Satan has won a little bit.
Sure I’ve heard awful singing (INCLUDING mine,) I keep doing for it for 4 reasons: 1. Full,active and conscious participation 2. The songs move me. 3. He who sings prays twice. 4. If God doesn’t like my voice, He has the power to change it. LOL. In my church I’ve heard a wide range of music from different choirs and directors/leaders/musicians. Let me see if I can remember them all. Gaudete in Latin on Gaudete Sunday- 3rd Sunday of Advent. Hallelujah Chorus, Amazing Grace, Mighty Fortress, well any way. Yes a full range OCP, Spirit and Song, traditional, Praise & Worship, blue grass, folk, Beatles, Latin, and others. Instruments heard organ, drums, saxophone, trumpet, flute, piano, keyboard, rainstick, bongos, guitar (electric and regular), chimes, tamborine, and others I don’t know the names of. But to me it doesn’t really matter, because my role at Mass is not to be a music critic. My role is to be a faithful attentive and participating member of the Catholic Church in communion with the rest of the community. (Although, music and instrumentation done well is better.)

You know before I read your reply to my post. I had started to work on another post about history of the liturgy, until I hit the wrong key and lost it. I can’t get it back.

Thanks for the prayer. Mallory is actually the name of someone who has already departed. I appreciate your prayer, but please, say another for her soul.

 

[LilyM]

Again, I ask did you read the article I linked to?

I am not debating whether there is MORE in the OF, rather HOW it is.

‘Ignorance of the scriptures is ignorance of Christ’ as St Jerome says. To even imply that being exposed to more scripture in Mass can in any way be anything other than beneficial is ludicrous.

It’s the word of God, fer crying out loud. We should be pushing to include EVERY BLESSED WORD of it in our lectionaries, if anything, and not whinging about how the bits picked for the OF lectionary are somehow not good enough because they don’t neatly fit together.

To sacrifice exposure to scripture for such a poor reason is to totally miss the forest for the trees.

 

[bilop]

‘Ignorance of the scriptures is ignorance of Christ’ as St Jerome says. To even imply that being exposed to more scripture in Mass can in any way be anything other than beneficial is ludicrous.

It’s the word of God, fer crying out loud. We should be pushing to include EVERY BLESSED WORD of it in our lectionaries, if anything, and not whinging about how the bits picked for the OF lectionary are somehow not good enough because they don’t neatly fit together.

To sacrifice exposure to scripture for such a poor reason is to totally miss the forest for the trees.

Lily,

My belief is that it is more important to repeat the critical epistles and gospels every year than to try and cover every last bit of scripture.

You wouldn’t argue that there are more and less important parts of the Bible, would you?

God Bless

 

[ethelzguy]

Lily,

My belief is that it is more important to repeat the critical epistles and gospels every year than to try and cover every last bit of scripture.

You wouldn’t argue that there are more and less important parts of the Bible, would you?

God Bless

But we are free to study the Bible outside of Mass. This seems to get overlooked. Personally, I feel the exposure to MORE scripture in the Mass would more likely spur MORE personal study, solo, or in groups within a parish.

I can find no redeeming logic in further limiting how much scripture we are exposed to in the Mass. And, of course asking if we should cover ALL scripture is a bit of a rhetorical question, no?

 

[bilop]

Because you offer it as fact not opinion. If those are your opinions, that’s fine – you are entitled to them. It does not mean they are truth though.

Of course it is opinion, just like it is your OPINION that the new cycle is better.

You don’t get to determine truth, neither do I.

According to the Church, both Masses and both cycles are equally valid. Therefore, the Church does not state one is better or worse. Any preference will always be opinion.

God Bless

 

[bilop]

But we are free to study the Bible outside of Mass. This seems to get overlooked. Personally, I feel the exposure to MORE scripture in the Mass would more likely spur MORE personal study, solo, or in groups within a parish.

I can find no redeeming logic in further limiting how much scripture we are exposed to in the Mass. And, of course asking if we should cover ALL scripture is a bit of a rhetorical question, no?

Of course we are, and we should.

But the purpose of Mass is not Bible study. The Mass contains a limited selection of scripture and a ~10 min. discussion of scripture and doctrine.

The question is what is best from the point of view of Catechesis. I think reptition on the 52 key Gospels and 52 key Espistles/Readings is more effective in terms of drumming home doctrine than a 3-year cycle.

God Bless

 

[ethelzguy]

Of course we are, and we should.

But the purpose of Mass is not Bible study. The Mass contains a limited selection of scripture and a ~10 min. discussion of scripture and doctrine.

The question is what is best from the point of view of Catechesis. I think reptition on the 52 key Gospels and 52 key Espistles/Readings is more effective in terms of drumming home doctrine than a 3-year cycle.

God Bless

But likewise, is the purpose of Mass “drumming home doctrine”?

 

[bilop]

But likewise, is the purpose of Mass “drumming home doctrine”?

I think that is the purpose of the readings and homily, yes.

By doctrine I mean, why are we Catholic, and what does that mean.

Just two weeks ago we had the “eat of my flesh” Gospel. Catholics need to hear that every year to reinforce the Real Presence.

The “binding and loosing” Gospel to reinforce the need for confession.

etc.

God Bless

 

[ethelzguy]

Just two weeks ago we had the “eat of my flesh” Gospel. Catholics need to hear that every year to reinforce the Real Presence.

The “binding and loosing” Gospel to reinforce the need for confession.

etc.

God Bless

Can’t disagree with you there

 

[japhy]

‘Ignorance of the scriptures is ignorance of Christ’ as St Jerome says. To even imply that being exposed to more scripture in Mass can in any way be anything other than beneficial is ludicrous.

I don’t think anyone is saying that simply because there’s more Scripture, it’s a problem. The problem with the new Lectionary is not simply that there’s more, it’s the manner of the addition (lack of coherency), the things that have been excised (like 1 Cor 11:27-29 from Corpus Christi and Holy Thursday), the multiple cycles (1-year liturgical cycle, 2-year weekday cycle, 3-year Sunday cycle), and the complete abandonment of the long-standing traditional cycle of readings.

It would have been possible to add to the reading cycle (or even add another year’s worth) without throwing out the old one.

 

[PatrickJT914]

PrayforMallory,
You’re welcome. And I will.
Lord Jesus, I pray for the repose of the soul of Mallory, look not on her sins but on her faith and love. Grant her eternal life in heaven, may she be embraced in your loving and comforting arms. Give peace and comfort to those she left behind. AMEN

 

[PatrickJT914]

“Ignorance of scriptures is ignorance of Christ” St. Jerome

 

[James0235]

‘Ignorance of the scriptures is ignorance of Christ’ as St Jerome says. To even imply that being exposed to more scripture in Mass can in any way be anything other than beneficial is ludicrous.

I’m pretty sure I know what you mean here. But, I think you are saying it wrong. If being exposed to more scripture is beneficial then is is certainly more beneificial to attend the Extraordianry Form of the Roman Rite than the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. You will be exposed to more scripture in the EF than in the OF.

The Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite exposes one to a greater variety of scripture. But, certainly not more scripture in a given Mass than the EF.

It’s the word of God, fer crying out loud. We should be pushing to include EVERY BLESSED WORD of it in our lectionaries, if anything, and not whinging about how the bits picked for the OF lectionary are somehow not good enough because they don’t neatly fit together

Unfortunately it is hard to find priests who agree with this. At least around here it is nearly impossible to find a priest that doesn’t replace the Entrance and Communion Antiphons with hymns in the OF (a legitimate option according to the GIRM). Of course, most of the time these hymns consist of us singing to God about how great we are but that is a different topic.

If people really believe that more is better when it comes to scripture in the Mass then I think the absolute first place to start should be restoring all of the scripture that is left out by replacing the Entrance and Communion Antiphons.

.
James