I am an atheist thread 2

[_A]

_A_;3075905:

What reason is there to think that the real boss of the whole universe decided to make this kind of demonstration?

I honestly believe God loves all of us so fully, He wants all of us to be with Him some day.

This is incorrect. If the stuff about Yahweh is true, then he created everything, perfectly. That means he created sins, and created people knowing that many would not be coming to be with him in heaven. If he didn’t want to torture souls for eternity, why did he build a hell, and create sin? I think that what Yahweh wants, Yahweh gets.
If you believe that whole ‘omnipotent/omniscient’ thing, that is. The world makes a lot more sense when you remove the ‘god hypothesis’.

I do believe in hell, even if it’s an utter & permanent loss of connection to God. That would be bad enough… Whatever form it takes, I believe it’s so bad God doesn’t want to lose one of us. I know it sounds simplistic, but I think of the verse about Jesus not wanting to lose one of His little sheep (Can’t think of the exact verse, very weak on the Bible).

Doesn’t want to lose his sheep? First, I am not a sheep. Second, you or I might lose our keys, or our wallet, but an omnipotent being loses nothing unless he **wanted **to lose it.

I think that might be why every once in a while God allows us little glimpses, or gives private revelations once in a while.

Which raises the question, what about those not lucky enough to live near one of his private revelations? Do they end up in hell just because they didn’t have the good sense to live near a miracle?

This kind of talk probably makes you nuts, & I can understand that, but it’s truly what I think.

Nah, in fact, exploring the questions about gods is what lead me to a fuller understanding of gods. I don’t mind talking about it, and you are very pleasant to discuss with.

Is there anything I can tell you about atheists that you want to know? (please remember that I can only speak for me, not for all atheists)

 

[_A]

Every so often we will face a problem that seems to defy a solution. No matter how long and hard we study the problem, we just can’t seem to come up with an answer. Sometimes, a genuine, and workable solution to the problem will hit us with a sudden and not so subtle realization. This can occur upon waking from a sound sleep or simply at a random moment during the day. The realization that we experience is quite real, yet it may not be subject to immediate scientific scrutiny. It is even possible that it will never be subject to scientific scrutiny.

The only difference I see here is that one solution came easily, and another only came after careful thought and long reflection. How, other than the time taken for our brain to find an answer is one different from another?

The realization of truth that we experience when we are given the gift of faith is similar to the experience of a realization that we have in arriving at a real, genuine, and workable solution to a problem. We have a conviction and certitude that is quite different from a hallucination.

NOW we are getting somewhere! If it is different from an hallucination, HOW is it different? How can anyone tell? Some who have religious visions must be wrong, because some contradict others, so how do we figure out which are pretenders?

It may be possible to point out a real life example of a realization that is a genuine and workable solution to a problem, not a hallucination, and yet not subject to scientific analysis and verification other than by some related effect. Take the example of a person that is self centered and oblivious to the fact that their behavior hurts other people. At some point in time, he/she comes to a sudden and unexpected realization that the selfishness is wrong, hurtful, and self-destructive. This realization is genuine…it is not a hallucination. The only external evidence of the realization is the testimony by the person themselves, and perhaps a change in their externally observable behavior. The event is otherwise devoid of any and all scientific measurement and verification.

Even if the realization is ‘genuine’, as you call it, that doesn’t mean that it couldn’t be an hallucination.
If a hallucination was completely unbelievable (i.e. a pig flying on the back of a pegasus), then it wouldn’t be a really convincing hallucination. If you hallucinated a car passing you on the highway, it could be really convincing.

Faith is similar. We have a genuine realization and certitude that God exists. We know that God exists with the same certitude that we know that other things exist that we cannot see or measure.

Which things do you know exist that you cannot see or measure?

The effects of our faith can be measured and observed in the form of Christian love and all that our faith calls us to in this life. Even science can record the external changes in a persons behavior and life. Perhaps that could be some of the proof you need.

I hope this helps.

I have some evidence of faith.

Does this evidence of faith mean that she was right?

 

[_A]

How do you (A), determine in your life what is reality and what is hallucinating? (Perhaps an alternate term could be “just imagining things”.) I know you said that you seek to verify using reliable, unbiased sources. But what do you do when you’re all by yourself for many days, for example? Do you consider yourself to be the reliable, unbiased source?

I think I am reliable in the usual, mundane things (which comes from drawing on experience). If something extraordinary happens, I look for extraordinary evidence (which would likely mean unbiased, independent observations)

 

[_A]

“And the people who have had genuine spiritual encounters, probably didn’t expect or want it in the first place, and hopefully are quietly doing what they are asked to do.”

Did you see the picture I posted? She was doing what she was asked. I don’t know who her victims were, aside from herself, but do you think they would have preferred that she check with independant observers, first?
If you are going to suggest that she is deluded, remember that evidence. She looks quite certain to me.
Personal knowledge is not evidence for she, or for you. Or it is good evidence for both of you.
Which do you think it is?
Do you think those who burned witches believed that they were right?

 

[mmm1]

Don’t be nervous - I am just a regular guy. I have no superhuman powers. Also, I am only a little above average intelligence (according to those shifty online IQ tests, so we are likely fairly close to even)

Thanks, but if you knew me in real life, you would be used to me being nervous & spazzy. But I am extra intimidated when discussing things with someone like you, because I know I am not at all skilled in debate or persuasion. I’m at least better when writing than speaking, though, so I appreciate your kindness.

Thanks, mostly I just found them on the net (except for the ones I took) so I can only take partial credit. The one pic of me with a huge fish was more a credit to my sweetheart. She plucked that beasty out of the water (cut her fingers a little doing it) put it in my hands, then took the picture. I just stood there looking, well, like I looked. She did the hard work.
I gotta tell you, I have never known a better fishing partner (and that ain’t the half of it!!!)

One thing I do agree with you on, it sounds like your fishing partner is a real keeper…

What I find interesting about the ‘fatima’ event is that, while god is said to have made the sun dance around, there is no evidence anywhere else that this happened.

This is where I start to disagree with you, though. I don’t know if it qualifies as hard evidence, but how about the fact that the ground dried up? How do you misinterpret that? Thousands of believers & non-believers reported the same thing. That sounds like repeatable results.

The sun is visible to many more. How come none outside of that geographic area witnessed it? If it was witnessed in such a small area (as reports suggest), then is was a localized phenomena, and those stating that the sun was moved are merely misinterpreting what they saw.

I think you assume too much when you say they had to misinterpret it if only that geographical area saw it. Again, if God exists, then He can certainly make the sun dance in one area & make it seem stable to others. I think you are limiting God & not giving this enough consideration. I avoided statistics out of a sense of self preservation, but it seems like the statistical chances that all these things add up to form the perfect storm of a fake misinterpreted miracle are just too small.

1. Children are told a miracle will occur on Oct 13.
2. Month after month, crowds & skepticism grows.
3. Heavy downpours, earth & clothing dries instantly.
4. Thousands report this.
5. Peasant children risk scorn, imprisonment & bodily injury rather than going against the wishes of “the lady”. They all said the same thing & were not put up to it by family, they were punished.

What are the statistical chances that all this occurs, & that atmospheric changes cause the sun to do something no one has ever seen, thousands report it & misinterpret it the same way, hallucinogenic substances are in the water & the ground is dry. This is just one miracle. Have you looked into the science behind the garment in the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe? Honestly, I think it’s a lot easier to stretch my mind & think maybe there is a creator after all.
What else might they be misinterpreting?

How do you know for sure they misinterpreted this?

 

[Mr.Bee]

Did you see the picture I posted? She was doing what she was asked. I don’t know who her victims were, aside from herself, but do you think they would have preferred that she check with independant observers, first?
If you are going to suggest that she is deluded, remember that evidence. She looks quite certain to me.
Personal knowledge is not evidence for she, or for you. Or it is good evidence for both of you.
Which do you think it is?
Do you think those who burned witches believed that they were right?

I guess, that woman, and those who burned witches, didn’t know who it was asking them to do what they did?

I don’t know.

 

[mmm1]

This is incorrect. If the stuff about Yahweh is true, then he created everything, perfectly.

Again, I do disagree with you. God is perfect & does everthing perfectly, but he can create something that is not perfect. He simply created MUCH lesser beings that He knew were not perfect, & He gave them a free will. Are you saying that a perfect deity can not create a person with a handicap or a planet with earthquakes if He wills it?

That means he created sins, and created people knowing that many would not be coming to be with him in heaven. If he didn’t want to torture souls for eternity, why did he build a hell, and create sin?

That does not mean that God created sin or hell. Your tendency to infer that does not make it true. Man & angels sinned, & the result was hell. I think that what Yahweh wants, Yahweh gets. Isn’t it possible that what Yahweh wanted was beings that would love Him of their own accord? Maybe on the “day” that He created man He was not interested in robots. I just think you assume too much.

If you believe that whole ‘omnipotent/omniscient’ thing, that is. The world makes a lot more sense when you remove the ‘god hypothesis’.
Doesn’t want to lose his sheep? First, I am not a sheep. Second, you or I might lose our keys, or our wallet, but an omnipotent being loses nothing unless he **wanted **to lose it.

Of course He doesn’t lose us like keys, but I’m sure you’ve heard that God won’t force someone to accept Him or push them in to Heaven.

Which raises the question, what about those not lucky enough to live near one of his private revelations? Do they end up in hell just because they didn’t have the good sense to live near a miracle?

Of course not. Whoever said if you don’t know about a private revelation or miracle you go to hell? The Catholic Church teaches about God’s unfathomable, infinite mercy. A lot of people are fascinated by the diaries of St. Maria Faustina & her reflections on the Divine Mercy. She is the first saint that Pope John Paul ll canonized in the 21st century. She was a young, uneducated nun in Poland in the 1930’s. Jesus appeared to her & spoke to her many times. He told her to write what He told her. She was barely literate, & her 800 pages of volumes fascinate people. The most amazing part is the depth of Jesus’ mercy for us. We just have to have a little humility & realize that if there is a God that created all, the chasm between Him & us makes us very much like sheep. But I know that’s a term some people hate. It’s not very flattering, I understand that. Unless you think of a tiny little lamb that Jesus carries tenderly, but that imagery might not work for you…

Nah, in fact, exploring the questions about gods is what lead me to a fuller understanding of gods. I don’t mind talking about it, and you are very pleasant to discuss with.

Is there anything I can tell you about atheists that you want to know? (please remember that I can only speak for me, not for all atheists)

I know we disagree, but thanks for letting me air my way-too-verbose views! BTW, my relative describes himself as a secular humanist. Is that necessarily different than an atheist, or similar?

 

[Armor_of_God]

Did you see the picture I posted? She was doing what she was asked. I don’t know who her victims were, aside from herself, but do you think they would have preferred that she check with independant observers, first?
If you are going to suggest that she is deluded, remember that evidence. She looks quite certain to me.
Personal knowledge is not evidence for she, or for you. Or it is good evidence for both of you.
Which do you think it is?
Do you think those who burned witches believed that they were right?

How do we know that picture is real?

 

[Armor_of_God]

I think I am reliable in the usual, mundane things (which comes from drawing on experience). If something extraordinary happens, I look for extraordinary evidence (which would likely mean unbiased, independent observations)

A, could you please elaborate on this?

 

[Mr.Bee]

I was enjoying this thread conversation… until now.

 

[Pax]

The only difference I see here is that one solution came easily, and another only came after careful thought and long reflection. How, other than the time taken for our brain to find an answer is one different from another?

NOW we are getting somewhere! If it is different from an hallucination, HOW is it different? How can anyone tell? Some who have religious visions must be wrong, because some contradict others, so how do we figure out which are pretenders?

Even if the realization is ‘genuine’, as you call it, that doesn’t mean that it couldn’t be an hallucination.
If a hallucination was completely unbelievable (i.e. a pig flying on the back of a pegasus), then it wouldn’t be a really convincing hallucination. If you hallucinated a car passing you on the highway, it could be really convincing.
Which things do you know exist that you cannot see or measure?

I gave an example of something that is not a hallucination. That something was a realization of a solution. The realization of the solution is not visible. Flying pigs and such are hallucinations. Realizations and knowledge of things are in a different category. They are not visions.

If you wish to claim that faith as a realization and knowledge of God’s existence is a hallucination than you must argue that all realizations of solutions to problems are also hallucinations. Faith doesn’t require a “vision.”

 

[_A]

I guess, that woman, and those who burned witches, didn’t know who it was asking them to do what they did?

I don’t know.

The faith of that woman in the picture was arguably stronger than most. Why are you not following her religion?

 

[_A]

Originally Posted by A View Post
This is incorrect. If the stuff about Yahweh is true, then he created everything, perfectly.

That does not mean that God created sin or hell.

Are you trying to suggest that sin and hell were created against the will of Yahweh?

Isn’t it possible that what Yahweh wanted was beings that would love Him of their own accord?

If I wanted you to love me ‘of your own accord’, should I threaten you with eternal torture if you refuse, and offer eternal rewards if you accept?
I don’t think so. ‘Accord’ means ‘freedom’ (roughly)

Of course He doesn’t lose us like keys, but I’m sure you’ve heard that God won’t force someone to accept Him or push them in to Heaven.

…but if you don’t accept him, he will toss you into eternal torture.

The Catholic Church teaches about God’s unfathomable, infinite mercy.

How would ‘infinite mercy’ match up with hell? Isn’t hell supposed to be endless torture?

Unless you think of a tiny little lamb that Jesus carries tenderly, but that imagery might not work for you…

Ya, Jesus is painted as the shepherd. I would remind you that the main ingredient in shepherd’s pie is mutton.

I don’t know exactly what ‘secular humanist’ means, but, having glanced it over, I think that an atheist could be one.

 

[_A]

How do we know that picture is real?

We don’t, and I would rather think it was a fake. It does show my point, though.
There are men and women who have so much faith that they would strap explosives on and blow up themselves to carry out the will of their god.
That is quite a lot of faith demonstrated there.

 

[_A]

A, could you please elaborate on this?

The regular, everyday things (gravity goes ‘down’ here on earth, for example) I can accept and not question very closely or very often.
Something extraordinary, however, would require extraordinary evidence. (if someone claimed that they could remove this 'gravitic effect, for example)

 

[_A]

If you wish to claim that faith as a realization and knowledge of God’s existence is a hallucination than you must argue that all realizations of solutions to problems are also hallucinations. Faith doesn’t require a “vision.”

I don’t.

It is clear we still have a misunderstanding here.

I am asking how you tell the difference.
If you keep getting correct answers from a man speaking to you in a ‘dream’, it would not matter that it sounded astounding and unbelievable. They would be the right answers.
If you have instead, a bunch of right answers, a bunch of wrong answers and a bunch of mixed, it would sound a lot more like you had nothing more complicated than a brain (mind?)

 

[Armor_of_God]

I was enjoying this thread conversation… until now.

Why, Mr. Bee?

Please - I hope you aren’t reading tone that isn’t there. My posts may not be full of smilies, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that my questions aren’t being asked with a smile or a gentle nature. I think if I were face-to-face with A, we would be drinking tea, or fishing, while having these conversations.

I think I have some valid questions, just as A has some valid questions.

 

[Armor_of_God]

The regular, everyday things (gravity goes ‘down’ here on earth, for example) I can accept and not question very closely or very often.
Something extraordinary, however, would require extraordinary evidence. (if someone claimed that they could remove this 'gravitic effect, for example)

I’m more curious about how you would go about testing something empirically that apparently only you experienced, with no witnesses. To be more specific, what if this event was experienced interiorly? What if you heard a voice speaking to you: you’re all by yourself, in the middle of nowhere, and the voice persists? I gather from your posts so far that you have never experienced this, or you ignored it if you did. But - what if? It could happen. What scientific methods would you use to verify?

 

[Armor_of_God]

We don’t, and I would rather think it was a fake. It does show my point, though.

Well, no, it doesn’t really show your point, because you were presenting that picture as “evidence” of faith, and I am not convinced of its authenticity.

 

[_A]

I’m more curious about how you would go about testing something empirically that apparently only you experienced, with no witnesses. To be more specific, what if this event was experienced interiorly? What if you heard a voice speaking to you: you’re all by yourself, in the middle of nowhere, and the voice persists? I gather from your posts so far that you have never experienced this, or you ignored it if you did. But - what if? It could happen. What scientific methods would you use to verify?

If it made testable claims, I would likely check that first. I would also likely ask someone close to me for their opinion.
A most likely second stop, if I were hearing voices, would be to get checked out by a doctor for schizophrenia.
A medical doctor, I should say. A doctor of divinity might be still using the ‘demon possesion’ theory of medicine. I would like better to have the kind that uses modern medicine.