I am an atheist thread 2

  • Thread starter Thread starter _A
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Yes, i thought i misunderstood you, which is why i asked if i had. Good, then, we agree that the result of the binary code, such as a Windows operating system, shows an intelligent, purposeful, deliberate design. The result of such code shows it is far from merely a random and meaningless series of zeros and ones.

Please excuse me for asking, but i want to be sure i have not misread you again. Do you agree with me?
Nope. It is not a code that was chosen by some intelligence. It is a code selection dictated by circumstances.

When you arrange the code properly it can create a wide variety of things, but to me it is an important distinction.
 
Judges, as you pointed out, have the discretion of giving a more lenient sentence to the person who shows remorse for her crime than to the one show shows no remorse and rebelliously says she’d gladly commit the same offense again.

Do you agree?
Yes, I agree that judges have that discretion. I don’t want to imply that I think this is a good idea, just that it is the law.
 
If you are right about you god, he would be the offended party.
I agree. But I will also say that it really offends me as well, because you are speaking of Someone I love very much. I know you can’t relate, but maybe I can compare it to speaking of your Mom in a certain way. Or whoever you care about most in this world.
Pretending to believe (for me) would be a lie. It doesn’t matter if it is true, since do not believe that it is
Even living, as I do, as if all the gods are imaginings of man, I would not want to be false in this way.
I agree with you completely. If you don’t believe, you don’t believe. I just didn’t think “blasphemy” was the correct word to use, as it really does refer to God or at least something sacred.
I think faking anything about that subject is particularly despicable. Whether it is a pedophile getting a job as a priest to get closer to children or a TV evangelist taking huge donations from poor people to fund their posh lifestyle.
I think it doubles the insult because of how trusting people are of their religious authorities.
I agree 100%. Though I must say, it really isn’t that easy to “get a job” as a priest.
 
I will try not to do that. What is your question ?
Thank you, A. I had asked your opinion on the core messages in Scripture from Acts up to Revelation.

You asked me to be more specific, so I gave you some Scripture passages.
 
Lacking in morals, offhand. If you want to state those core values more specifically, I can answer more specifically.
“For this reason I fall on my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth receives its true name. I ask God from the wealth of his glory to give you power through his Spirit to be strong in your inner selves, and I pray that Christ will make his home in your hearts through faith. I pray that you may have your roots and foundation in love so that you, together with all God’s people, may have the power to understand how broad and long, how high and deep, is Christ’s love. Yes, may you come to know his love - although it can never be fully known - and so be completelly filled with the very nature of God.
To him who by means of his power working in us is able to do so much more than we can ever ask for, or even think of: to God be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus for all time, for ever and ever! Amen.”
(Eph 3: 14-21)

“As God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience. Bear with one another and, if anyone has a complaint against another, forgive each other; just as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. Above all, clothe yourselves with love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; teach and admonish one another in all wisdom; and with gratitude in your hearts sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to God. And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.”
(Col 3: 12-17)

“But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth. For this purpose he called you through our proclamation of the good news, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.
Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and though grace gave us eternal comfort and good hope, comfort your hearts and strengthen them in every good work and word.”
(2 Thes 2: 13-17)
 
Nope. It is not a code that was chosen by some intelligence. It is a code selection dictated by circumstances.

When you arrange the code properly it can create a wide variety of things, but to me it is an important distinction.
Yes, and a worthy distinction you have made Mr. A! I agree with you that the binary numbering system itself is a code dictated by circumstances, but the results of binary code are the product of the thinking, creative human beings who designed the programming source code that is translated into binary code that computer processors to execute. What you say is quite true and well said.

I also like what you said about how binary code might be quite different if circumstances dictated that switches had three or four settings rather than merely on and off. If there were three, our computers might require trinary code. If there were four, they might by necessity use quadary code.

This idea also strikes me: I wonder what code might resemble if the Roman numeral numbering system was still in use today. Instead of ones and zeros, we’d have the letters X, I or V. In fact, i imagine a numbering system might use any letters. It’s entirely possible, for example, that if the circumstances of machines and the history of mathematics had been different, our computer processors might be using a quadary code made up of the letters t, g, c and a.

I do not think our speculation is far from the truth, do you?
 
I agree. But I will also say that it really offends me as well, because you are speaking of Someone I love very much. I know you can’t relate, but maybe I can compare it to speaking of your Mom in a certain way. Or whoever you care about most in this world.
I am not sure what you are offended with here…is it my reluctance to lie to your imaginary friend?
I agree with you completely. If you don’t believe, you don’t believe. I just didn’t think “blasphemy” was the correct word to use, as it really does refer to God or at least something sacred
OK, it isn’t blasphemy, but I still think that kind of lie is in the same class as the TV evangelist or the pedophile with the church as his device for reaching children. It is an abuse of trust to those who do genuinely believe.
I agree 100%. Though I must say, it really isn’t that easy to “get a job” as a priest.
It is easy enough that hundreds of people did get in who shouldn’t have. This is easy to see by looking at how many settlements have to be paid out by the church for protecting these men.
 
Thank you, A. I had asked your opinion on the core messages in Scripture from Acts up to Revelation.

You asked me to be more specific, so I gave you some Scripture passages.
The core message seems to be (from out here) ‘love me or burn’.
I don’t like threats.
 
Yes, and a worthy distinction you have made Mr. A! I agree with you that the binary numbering system itself is a code dictated by circumstances, but the results of binary code are the product of the thinking, creative human beings who designed the programming source code that is translated into binary code that computer processors to execute. What you say is quite true and well said.

I also like what you said about how binary code might be quite different if circumstances dictated that switches had three or four settings rather than merely on and off. If there were three, our computers might require trinary code. If there were four, they might by necessity use quadary code.

This idea also strikes me: I wonder what code might resemble if the Roman numeral numbering system was still in use today. Instead of ones and zeros, we’d have the letters X, I or V. In fact, i imagine a numbering system might use any letters. It’s entirely possible, for example, that if the circumstances of machines and the history of mathematics had been different, our computer processors might be using a quadary code made up of the letters t, g, c and a.

I do not think our speculation is far from the truth, do you?
It doesn’t matter if it is numbers or letters which are used (in hexidecimal, some letters are used to represent some of the numbers).
If the switches could handle four positions, then we could indeed have had a ‘quadary’ code. That code would also be just another number base, such as decimal.
 
It doesn’t matter if it is numbers or letters which are used (in hexidecimal, some letters are used to represent some of the numbers).
If the switches could handle four positions, then we could indeed have had a ‘quadary’ code. That code would also be just another number base, such as decimal.
Agreed. We might also discuss other possibilities, such as using another medium besides silicone-based processors. Carbon-based processors, for example, might be used if chemists and engineers find this possible, practical and beneficial. Indeed, some might say (perhaps with tongue in cheek) that geneticists are approaching something like programming for living creatures.

My thoughtful A, do you now see the relevance of this discussion and are you not astonished by the conclusions you and i might draw from it?

🙂
 
Yes, I agree that judges have that discretion. I don’t want to imply that I think this is a good idea, just that it is the law.
Yes, who am i to judge what is right and wrong. I would be wise to leave that one wiser than myself. For good or bad it is the prerogative, indeed the obligation, of judges to determine the severity or lenience of the crime.

We might use the examples of the same judge passing sentence on two murderers

(a) a woman who was brutally beaten by her abusive husband and shot him to protect herself, and who showed remorse and regret for her crime

(b) a serial killer who was previously convicted of murder and who deliberately murdered at least a dozen innocent women while out on parole, and who tells the judge he would gladly kill again

It would seem equitable, i think, that (a) would receive a more lenient sentence than (b).

Mr. A, you being a reasonable person, do you now realize that there is no contradiction between Jeremiah, chapter 3 and Jeremiah, chapter 17?

🙂
 
Agreed. We might also discuss other possibilities, such as using another medium besides silicone-based processors. Carbon-based processors, for example, might be used if chemists and engineers find this possible, practical and beneficial. Indeed, some might say (perhaps with tongue in cheek) that geneticists are approaching something like programming for living creatures.

My thoughtful A, do you now see the relevance of this discussion and are you not astonished by the conclusions you and i might draw from it?

🙂
Nope. Is there a reason that I should find this astonishing?
 
Yes, who am i to judge what is right and wrong. I would be wise to leave that one wiser than myself. For good or bad it is the prerogative, indeed the obligation, of judges to determine the severity or lenience of the crime.

We might use the examples of the same judge passing sentence on two murderers

(a) a woman who was brutally beaten by her abusive husband and shot him to protect herself, and who showed remorse and regret for her crime

(b) a serial killer who was previously convicted of murder and who deliberately murdered at least a dozen innocent women while out on parole, and who tells the judge he would gladly kill again

It would seem equitable, i think, that (a) would receive a more lenient sentence than (b).

Mr. A, you being a reasonable person, do you now realize that there is no contradiction between Jeremiah, chapter 3 and Jeremiah, chapter 17?

🙂
There is still a clear contradiction. In one passage he says that he is, in the next he is not.
You don’t have to go very far to see the contradiction, but I will admit that you have to twist and hop around just right to see it as not a contradiction.
Is that why you keep asking about the way out justice system judges people?
 
Haha, nice one A 🙂
Proof that air is real.
Yes, you’ve said that several times. I am asking you to be specific about what proof you would accept.
You see? That’s what’s “said” about air, but can you bottle it? And if so, how will I know that you’ve actually bottled it if I can’t see it?
A has already given you an article about “bottling air” (sampling). I’ve already given you an article about showing how air has mass and takes up space. You’ve already been given the chemical composition of air.
Everything that’s been submitted as proof thus far requires my faith for me to believe that it’s true for there is no empirical evidence.
See above – how is that not empirical? You need to show why it is not acceptable and be specific about what you area looking for…
No, you feel “breath” move in and out. Breath is not air. Air (if it exists) in it’s natural state doesn’t move. Once it moves, it becomes something else (breeze, wind, gail, etc…) and is no longer air.
What do you think breath is? Breath is air inhaled and exhaled. Do you disagree with this definition? Just because air is being moved does not suddenly make it change from being considered air. You therefore have a different definition of wind then too, and not the one I supplied of “air in motion”? Better contact dictionary.com because their first result for wind is “air in natural motion, as that moving horizontally at any velocity along the earth’s surface: A gentle wind blew through the valley. High winds were forecast.”. You seem to be saying the equivalent of “if you throw a rock its no longer a rock because rocks normally don’t soar through the air”. Please state your definitions and be more concrete in your reasoning as to why you are dismissing breath and wind as air.

Air is the mix of gass of the atmosphere. Do you challenge this definition as well?
You can breathe liquod oxygen, and it’s not air.
Fetus’ breathe in amniotic fluid. I can go to the ocean and breathe in the water accidentally. A normal born human breathes in air to live.
That’s a balloon changing shape, but because you cannot see the air coming or going out of it, you cannot say that it’s the air that does it. One can put helium in a balloon too (helium, one can smell, tatse, etc…).
You can test the air’s composition. What would you say, then, is moving the balloon if not the forced in air? Do you also deny things like magnetism and gravity since you can not see and hold them?
As for why one would reject the existance of air because it turns into wind, is a seed that turns into a flower still a seed? Of course not. What something is is what something is at the time that it is defined.
Water that turns into ice is still H2O, and can easily turn back into flowing water. A rock that is flying through the air still has the same chemical composition. Wind that is moving still holds the same chemical composition of air, and returns to being “air”. A seed that is now a plant does not have the same characteristics/composition, and can not switch back and forth between the two.
Once wind is wind, it is no longer air or air in movement, but wind for it can be felt and heard (that is according to atheists who state that God can’t exists because He can’t be experienced by the senses).
I gave you a very specific definition and chemical proof that says that wind is precisely air in movement. ( dictionary.reference.com/browse/wind ) You need to back up what you are saying here because it is contradictory to posted definitions.
Unless you can scientifically prove every scientific experiment by yourself, that statement is incorrect. Those that you cannot prove, you have to have faith that those who tell you an experiment is successful is actually true.
What experiment is impossible for me to possibly experience myself? Are you saying I can not go back to school and do the experiment? Another great thing about science, is that experiments that are done once are not accepted as the end-all-be-all. They are repeated a multitude of times to ensure accuracy in results.
🙂 You do have to have faith in something that you cannot personally prove.
Like what?
 
continued
Ok, right there, that’s like me telling you to read The Bible and go speak to a Priest and take Catechism Classes and to go light candles.
You are asking me to just perform the secular/religious practices of that in which you have faith in as proof and that is insufficient.
How is explaining that you are free to look into any facet of science, show its insufficiency? Personally, I have taken religion classes, I’ve gone on retreats, I’ve spoken with priests, prayed and prayed, and have been to adorations. I’ve tried unsuccessfully to force myself to believe for 12 years. I finally realized that to continue to call myself Catholic would be a lie. I simply can’t make the Catholic logic work for me. I get the feeling that you think Atheists only feel as they do since they can’t experience God with the senses. But its more than just that. Things you can’t experience with the senses here on earth you still can test and get proof that way. Atheists are looking for any way of logically understanding that God exists. You’ve got thousands of religions out there. All of them pretty much look the same.
 
This is why is is fairly pointless to continue. If someone discovered solid proof that your god didn’t exist, you would still hold to your signature.
There IS no discovery, and NO solid proof that God doesn’t exist, and you know it. So let’s move on to the second part of my post

Why do you avoid for at least the second time the points and questions being raised in post #552, going back to post #411? Is it because you can’t provide the proof that you know I will ask YOU for?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3155104&postcount=552

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3119660&postcount=411

You don’t like my signature? Fine, then focus on the questions being raised. Stephen Hawking is MORE than qualified as a respected scientist for his views.
 
The core message seems to be (from out here) ‘love me or burn’.
I don’t like threats.
“But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.”
(2 Pet 3: 8-9)

"Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love. God’s love was revealed among us in this way: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins. Beloved, since God loved us so much, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God lives in us, and his love is perfected in us.

By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world. God abides in those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God, and they abide in God. So we have known and believe the love that God has for us.

God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them. Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness on the day of judgment, because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect loves casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached prefection in love. We love because he first loved us. Those who say, “I love God,” and hate their brothers or sisters, are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen. The commandment we have from him is this: those who love God must love their brothers and sisters also."
(1 John 4: 7-21)
 
40.png
phooney:
@ontologysue

“No, they’re not. 2 + 2 = 4 is a mathematical truth, it is not dependent on any experiment or verification in the material realm. The concept of an isosoles triangle exists, it is not material, nor does it depend on anything material.”

You’d have to go back to the beginnings of mathematics for this, early humans taking a rock, adding another rock and getting 2 rocks. Every time. Such things are accepted mathematical truth only because it is so easily empirically verified. All the kids basic math books (that I ever saw anyway) started out with pictures of 1 apple, 2 oranges, 3 pears, etc. 1 apple plus 1 apple is 2 apples. An isosoles triangle is an isosoles triangle only if the measureable lengths of two of the sides are equal. Sure the concept, or rather the definition, itself isn’t what I would call material, but it is an abstraction of the material. Taking such simple things as mathematical truths allowed us to build on them, without having to refer to physical items, instead referring to those things that were already proven, and getting more and more complicated. Mathematics starts with counting, and you count “things”.
phooney;3161013:
You can see where I was going with the tautology by my shorter response and non-observable truths.
Terribly sorry. I wasn’t sure how else to take your words in post #295 in this thread:

“Personally, I think the existence of language and consciousness, which scientists still find inexplicable, are more pursuasive indicators of an Infinite Intelligence, who, (perfect ‘personhood’) IS Being Itself, ie God.”

This was what I was going off, I didn’t intend to put words in your mouth.
My point in that post was that man, since he communicates, in what I would argue, is a singularly complex language, is conscious of a “self,” and is conscious that he is conscious of a “self,” thereby developing the concept of "personhood, "entirely unique to our species, is an existential being. This is THE salient fact of our existence. It is the fact which makes man a philosopher, artist, musician, mathematician, a lover of beauty and a poet.

We are closest to apprehending the ONE who IS Intelligence, who IS Being itself, who IS Personhood itself, who is I AM, when we utilize our higher nature.
 
You don’t like my signature?
Kinda jumping in media res here, but no. The more I hear about and from Padre Pio – from himself and from his devotees, at that! – the less respect it seems I am able to have for him. Some time ago, all I knew was that he was a mystic and a stigmatic, and was reputed to be a very holy man; and I was glad that people had a role model to look up to. Then I heard about his striking a woman who came to him for confession (from a Catholic poster here) and thought it odd; and now you proudly quote him denigrating the suffering and doubt of the very saints so many would see him placed with!

To doubt is not to insult. For a thing to be an insult, it must be intentional. Padre Pio may have had unshakable faith, and that’s all very well for him; but the rest of us mere mortals, the devout and the irreverent, the saintly and the worldly, cannot even be sure we will wake up tomorrow.

To doubt is to be human.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top