A
_A
Guest
I have no gods, and since you wont stop lying about it, I will stop sharing with you. Goodbye, Faith of Abraham.
- Status
O
oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
And there you go again dismissing the answer to the question just because the answer is God did it. You have this impression that God must answer to us. That he has to explain every thing to us. You remind me of a child that when told to do something and given a answer continue to day " but why". Sometime the answer is I said so.
God Created man And gave Adam and Eve one rule do not eat from the tree of knowledge. They did and as a result were cast from the garden. God showed mercy as he could have stuck them down dead and just started over.
To give analogy, As a parent i will assume you have given rules for your child to adhere to. You have also made him or here aware of what will happen if they do not follow your rules. This is the same with God he gave us the rules and then told us what happens if we don’t follow the rules. So if a person end up in hell its by there choice to not follow the rules. Now I can not think of any but Jesus that followed they all all the time and God being who he is has granted absolution to those who acknowledge there transgression and ask for forgiveness. To those who truly work in their lives to obey the rules of God, when we fail we have Gods promise to forgive a wipe the slate clean if we knowledge, ask for giviness the try not to commit them again.
Now I know that you will ripe this apart and dismiss it as you have
all post that acknowledge God grace.
As to this from one of your post
How do you know that you are not hallucinating and the world as you know it does not really exist?
P
psyche23
Guest
I don’t think God punishes us for ONE sin. I think he punished us for that one origional sin -at first… This is just speculation on my part, but when God gave humanity rules to follow and we/they disobeyed, we brought that sin on our children. Why? Because those kids lived with Adam and Eve. We learn what we know from our parents. Consequently each one of us learns our sin from our parents and those people around us so we continue to sin. God keeps reaching out to us to bring us back, but he has to do it in ways that we’ll understand. None of us are all knowing-all powerful, so he has to reach us in human terms.This conversation is putting me in the position of devil’s advocate with alarming frequency. Having said that, several responses come to mind.
First is the eternal nature of hell. When my daughter misbehaves, I’ll put her in timeout for a few minutes. That way she learns not to do it again. But if I put her in timeout forever, what does she learn? Technically, I guess she does learn a hell of a lesson (so to speak), but she doesn’t have a chance to apply that lesson.
Second is the perception that hell is overpunishment. This makes sense to me, too. If hell is a place of punishment, created by a just god, then we can expect the punishment to relate to the crime. Being burned forever for one unrepented sin… I can totally understand people scratching their heads about that.
That’s why it’s so important to understand the church’s real teaching on hell. Hell is the state of deliberate, willful separation from God. No one goes to hell accidentally. We know that through God’s mercy, even the hardest heart can come to repent. That’s all it takes!
Sometimes it’s hard, in this life. We’re all operating on finite information, filtered through human senses. We don’t always understand why we should be called to repent for some things. I wish I could dig up the passage in Faustina’s (I think) writings, of a dialog between Jesus and a dying man. Bottom line – there’s no reason to think God is going to damn anyone without giving them all the information they need to make the right choice.
If, given all that information, they choose separation from Him…What more can be done?
Why did he allow sin in the first place??? Because love is free. How free would we be if we didn’t HAS to love him, he allowed us to freely choose love.
As for Hell, there’s probably both wailing and gnashing of teeth and, but I think what’s really going to get us is when we realize we chose sin over eternal love even after God has been sending us thoughsand of years of signs of his love. If he just came down to earth and said “VOILA- Here I am! I exist!!!”. There wouldn’t be much of a test of faith would there? God wants us to earn his love, and he gives us plenty of ways and opportunities to do it.
I’ve probably said it before, but I’m no theologan. I’m not a great scientist or saint. All I can tell you is I’ve seen miracles myself. I know when God speaks to me even if most people would ignore it. Don’t take this to be condescending or anything, but I really feel sorry for the people who haven’t found the peace I have. I think once you experience God even in a small way, you just know and don’t worry about the bad stuff.
I’m probably not smart enough for this thread to continue on much, but I may periodically pop in my two cents worth.
P
psyche23
Guest
why can’t hell be both fire and brimstone as well as the absence of God? Of course if it is both, I’m pretty sure I’d know which one’s worse…
P
psyche23
Guest
I think I need to ammend my previous statement. It’s not that I don’t think origional sin doesn’t exist and that sin is only passed down through environment… I think the origional sin was big enough and justified to be passed down though our generations until we finally learn our lesson.
I mean think of it. Lucifer was once and angel and decided he would try to overtake God. He wanted to be equal if not better than God. God is perfect and good, but Lucifer wanted better than to praise what is perfect. In a way, that’s what Adam and Eve did too. They wanted something better than perfect. To reject perfection is the ultimate sin I think. God cast Satan out of Heaven and Adam and Eve out of Hell. Could God let Satan/Lucifer back in??? Sure, he can do anything he likes. But he’s not going to let something imperfect reside within perfection. God however, being omnipotent knows Lucifer will never accept that he was wrong and will never apologise. He DOES know however that Humanity is doing it’s best to make up for such a huge error! So he gives us an infinite amount of chances to make up for it…
Of course, none of this can be proven scientifically. But since everything is relative here on these forums including whether or not any of us exists, I figured it was worth the post.
I mean think of it. Lucifer was once and angel and decided he would try to overtake God. He wanted to be equal if not better than God. God is perfect and good, but Lucifer wanted better than to praise what is perfect. In a way, that’s what Adam and Eve did too. They wanted something better than perfect. To reject perfection is the ultimate sin I think. God cast Satan out of Heaven and Adam and Eve out of Hell. Could God let Satan/Lucifer back in??? Sure, he can do anything he likes. But he’s not going to let something imperfect reside within perfection. God however, being omnipotent knows Lucifer will never accept that he was wrong and will never apologise. He DOES know however that Humanity is doing it’s best to make up for such a huge error! So he gives us an infinite amount of chances to make up for it…
Of course, none of this can be proven scientifically. But since everything is relative here on these forums including whether or not any of us exists, I figured it was worth the post.
D
D_M
Guest
God created the universe but not everything which exists is his doing. He did not create death. You claim that I am interpreting on the basis of what ‘feels good’, I will quote to you scripture itself here to show you my backing:
The Wisdom of Solomon:
1:12-13
‘Do not invite death by the error of your life, nor bring on destruction by the works of your hands;
because God did not make death, and he does not delight in the death of the living.’
So you see this is not just my interpretation but scripture itself.
I don’t disagree with your interpration of pain and suffering from the phrases furnace or gnashing of teeth, in fact I agree, I wasn’t trying to offer ‘a warm interpretation’. I was actually trying to put it in a way which is better understood.
Death exists because of sin. Pain and suffering exists because of sin. If there was no sin there would be neither death, nor suffering nor pain. And a place which is filled with sin, to which all unrepentant sinners end is necessarily also therefore a place filled with death, misery and pain. If they did not commit sins there would be no death, misery and pain in that place. In fact that place would no longer be that place but rather they would share company with God.
The only way to be freed from sin is by forming a relationship with God by believing in His only begotten Son who is the tree of life and the lamb sent as a sacrifice for our sins. A person who refuses to do this forever lives in sin and its consequences forever.
Admittedly the bible is a difficult text to interpret if one uses the simplistic logical syllogisms to which you are applying to it (ie. because death exists therefore a loving God cannot exist). But it is most certainly not filled with nonsense. It is part of revelation given to all mankind.
A
_A
Guest
I dismiss your ‘feeling of certainty’ in favour of independently verifiable evidence.
Why shouldn’t I?
I am glad that you have hinted at the importance you give to environmental issues. Would you care to say if you would ruin a part of this world, say, about two square meters, to do a good that would get you into your gods’ good grace?
A
_A
Guest
I am asking you to define what it is you want me to accept. If you don’t wish to, that is OK with me.
I did give you a really difficult task, though. A clear and certain description of your god is not available anywhere. Every time I run into something that I don’t understand about how the description is too vague, or contradicts reality, I am told that I simply can not understand because I do not believe.
It sounds a lot like believers *also *don’t understand, which is why they sometimes hotly refuse to provide a robust, clear and descriptive definition of their various gods.
A
_A
Guest
I don’t believe either, so I don’t worry about it. Some would try to convert me, though. I never have been told anything about heaven to make it sound like a place I would want to spend a vacation, never mind an eternity.
Sounds a lot like there is nothing good promised in heaven. Just lack of torture.
Maybe the muslims are better…at least you can get 72 raisins(in the afterlife) if you spend your life the right way.
A
_A
Guest
I have known several former believers who regret not worrying a little more.
I don’t think of myself as particularly smart, either. Just a regular guy with curiosity. (means a grade 9 dropout with a reading habit).
I for one welcome your interesting and challenging contributions.
A
Armor_of_God
Guest
I know this was partly covered before, but here goes.
As was mentioned earlier, abstention from meat is a form of sacrifice of something we enjoy. The reason meat was chosen is because it was one of the main components of meals in many cultures, and usually the most expensive part.
Friday has traditionally been a day of penance for the Church’s faithful, as a universal honoring and remembrance of Christ’s passion and crucifixion on the first Good Friday.
Over time, the practice of not eating meat on Fridays has declined in some countries. According to Canon Law (1250), however, the significance of Friday as a day of penance and sacrifice has not been diminished at all, and faithful Catholics are to practice some type of abstention on Fridays. This is a form of spiritual discipline and a way of unifying the Church’s faithful.
A
Armor_of_God
Guest
It is obvious that you have not hung out with many priests in your lifetime, A. Among the 15+ priests I have known so far, none of them raped a child, or an adult, for that matter. On the contrary, I have met some very humble, holy, kind, caring, generous and wise priests. It is a pity that you seem to feel justified in painting a whole group of people with the same brush. You are missing out on some great friendships.
P
psyche23
Guest
It’s not that the bad stuff is inconsequential. It’s just that I know God takes care of me no matter what bad stuff may happen. I’ve experienced it and no amount of logic o science can persuade me from believing. Not knowing what’s in my heart and what I’ve been through. It makes life easier and a lot less of a downer. Plus I know that even when I die, and those around me ar gone, that that’s not the end.
And thanks for welcoming me.
A
_A
Guest
Independant unbiased confirmation of my observations is usually enough for me, depending on the circumstances.
Now, once again…
I am glad that you have hinted at the importance you give to environmental issues. Would you care to say if you would ruin a part of this world, say, about two square meters, to do a good that would get you into your gods’ good grace?
- Status