I am an atheist thread 3

  • Thread starter Thread starter _A
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
So does any Atheist want to take this question on?

I have asked this question I feel over and aver again in one form or another.

I feel and maybe wrong that this question hits a nerve among you from the reactions of some on my insistence.

I would like to be from the onset on a level playing field in knowing what is to be considered evidence other than yourselves being personal eye witnesses.

see below

So lets get this straight .

I could be wrong?

You make a statement that there is there is no God?

You are asked other than Evidence of actualy having your own 5 senses personally affected by God or personally knowing in advance and witnessing a miracle by God you would accept.

You do not have to accept any other evidence and that is your right. “your rationalization”.

But I am sure you agree that brought to any trial / court of law your rationalization would let 99% of the guilty free and as such is not to be considered a lone form of evidence.

The challenge I do have is that when one makes a comment that there is no evidence on the existence of God as that is a false statement. There is credible evidence as is defined in the definition of evidence.

That unless one knows what additional forms of evidence is acceptable by you then discussion on the opposing view is fruitless and futile.
 
phooney said:
Judging by A’s and Les’ experiences of priests that they’ve given us so far, it would seem that one could also make the following statement:

“There are only a handful of people who love the Catholic Church, though there are millions of love what they THINK the Church is.”
Click to expand...
You’re taking a few accounts on a forum to equal millions of people? A only gave one actual account, and I believe Les’ experiences were with Protestant ministers.

For the most part, the majority of their comments directed at Catholic belief in these threads have strongly reinforced Fulton Sheen’s statement.
I can’t remember what I was told specifically about hell when I went to a Catholic school, but I’m sure you’ll agree that the understanding of the concept of hell as eternal burning on actual fire is very common in both believers and disbelievers alike, and also in some of those that have a job within the church, priests etc.
Click to expand...
Yes, and I’m totally cool with it and have no problem with it.
Thanks though, for taking the time to go back through some of my lengthy posts!
Click to expand...
You’re welcome - I appreciate your taking the time to try to understand, and to explain your beliefs/opinions as well. I am trying to respond in bite-size pieces…otherwise, mine will be as long as yours!
 
phooney said:
continued @ c659smith

The formatting of your post when you copied and pasted something about evidence was quite difficult to follow if I recall correctly, this may have something to do with the lack of response you are getting on this question. On the whole from what I could decipher, I don’t think I had a problem with your definition of evidence. However, we must remember that not all evidence is created equal, and there may be better explanations for some evidence than what has been explained to you in the past, and who knows, we might both have some evidence that the other hasn’t heard of.

Agreed, don’t just assume. Which missing link are you referring to?

Now it is you that is getting confused, I didn’t have any problems with your definition of Ape. That was from A, and I thought it was just a bit of fun.

I think 90% is WILDLY optimistic.

Only when what you say contradicts the facts, like your hilarious understanding of modern physics. Don’t get me wrong, I’m no Stephen Hawking myself, but you seemed to think that Newton was the ‘cutting edge’!

Incorrect, it looked to me like you were simply passing off much of the text as your own work, which was a dishonest thing to do. It was also somewhat lazy. I can read books and websites to my heart’s content, I came here to talk to people. You and I will NEVER be able to read through all the things we could copy and paste at each other, it is pointless to have a conversation like that. The short time between my accusation of you not reading my posts, you saying you would respond to all of them, and then commencing to respond, proves my point that you didn’t read them at all.

The revolutionary war request deserved nothing.

Can you name an atheistic society any time in history? I mean where the society is atheist, not just the current leader? I think the closest we have ever come to so far seems to be Sweden, with some surveys indicating (I think) an 80% level of disbelief in a personal god. Other surveys say otherwise, but when I went there I found very little religiosity. I think the swedes are doing just fine.

Well, Bill Gates is probably ultimately responsible for the operating system that has allowed me the pleasure of reading your posts, as well as donating huge amounts of money to charity.

There’s one.

How about we try to answer Christopher Hitchens two big questions? Can we think of a good or moral act that could be carried out by a theist that could not be carried out by an atheist?

Following on from that, could we think of a bad or immoral act that could be committed by a theist, but not an atheist? Most people have trouble answering the former, but not the latter.

For the purpose of the discussion, we can’t count unverifiable claims like ‘saving somebody’s soul’
Click to expand...
Bill Gates has never explicitly made any statements about atheism

In reading about Bill Gates and hearing several of his interviews I never heard him profess to be an Atheist. I could see him being called an agnostic but in no way, shape, or form does he deny the existence of God.

Bill Gates wife Melinda is a Catholic and He was brought up as a congreationalist.

Bill states he has little time for religion and has better things to do on his Sundays. He does not believe in the Temple on the Mount but does not deny the existence of Christ and nor does he promote the existence either.

adelphia.net/google/redirect.php?to=aHR0cDovL3RoZWdyZWF0cmVhbGl6YXRpb24ud29yZHByZXNzLmNvbS8yMDA3LzA2LzA1L3dvcmxkcy1sYXJnZXN0LXBoaWxhbnRocm9wZXJzLWF0aGVpc3RzLw%3D%3D&context=results.1&count=7&_LT=GRLK_GBARGLBL7_OGRSR

Go to the above thread and see the Frost interview with Gates.

So lets take him of the mix of atheists.
 
Even I haven’t said there’s no god, and I’m still an atheist.

So let’s not knock him off that list just yet.
 
c659smith said:
Bill Gates has never explicitly made any statements about atheism

In reading about Bill Gates and hearing several of his interviews I never heard him profess to be an Atheist. I could see him being called an agnostic but in no way, shape, or form does he deny the existence of God.

Bill Gates wife Melinda is a Catholic and He was brought up as a congreationalist.

Bill states he has little time for religion and has better things to do on his Sundays. He does not believe in the Temple on the Mount but does not deny the existence of Christ and nor does he promote the existence either.

adelphia.net/google/redirect.php?to=aHR0cDovL3RoZWdyZWF0cmVhbGl6YXRpb24ud29yZHByZXNzLmNvbS8yMDA3LzA2LzA1L3dvcmxkcy1sYXJnZXN0LXBoaWxhbnRocm9wZXJzLWF0aGVpc3RzLw%3D%3D&context=results.1&count=7&_LT=GRLK_GBARGLBL7_OGRSR

Go to the above thread and see the Frost interview with Gates.

So lets take him of the mix of atheists.
Click to expand...
As far as Sweeden it is

Today about 75% of Swedes belong to the Church of Sweden (Lutheran), but the number is decreasing by about 1% every year, and Church of Sweden services are sparsely attended (hovering in the single digit percentages of the population).[68] The reason for the large number of inactive members is partly that until 1996, children became members automatically at birth if at least one of the parents was a member. Since 1996, all children that are christened become members. Some 275,000 Swedes are today members of various free churches (where congregation attendance is much higher), and, in addition, immigration has meant that there are now some 92,000 Roman Catholics and 100,000 Eastern Orthodox Christians living in Sweden.[69] Because of immigration, Sweden also has a significant Muslim population. Almost 500,000 are Muslims by tradition, but approximately 5% (25,000) of these are practising Islam (in the sense of attending Friday prayer and praying five times a day).[70] (See Islam in Sweden.)

The above taken from the below site
adelphia.net/google/redirect.php?to=aHR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9Td2VkZW4%3D&context=results.11&count=15&_LT=GRLK_GBARGLBLX_OGRSR

While Sweeden is known for it being a secularist society is far from Atheism as being the predominate case for religion.as most believe in a higher deity or Spirit
 
phooney said:
Even I haven’t said there’s no god, and I’m still an atheist.

So let’s not knock him off that list just yet.
Click to expand...
How about we try to answer Christopher Hitchens two big questions? Can we think of a good or moral act that could be carried out by a theist that could not be carried out by an atheist?

Following on from that, could we think of a bad or immoral act that could be committed by a theist, but not an atheist? Most people have trouble answering the former, but not the latter.

For the first question a good or moral act can be carried out for the glory of God and gives God the credit for allowing him to committ such an act. if the Theist committs to that act in the name of God.

The moral or good act by an Atheist would then not be for God but done for man. So therefore an Atheist could not carry out such an act for God or give God the glory and credit for him in committing such an act for an Atheist believes in no God.

A bad act for a Theist that could not be committed by an Atheist would be to abandon God or to place and or have other Gods.

An Atheist could not do this for they believe in no God.
 
phooney said:
I don’t know, I personally lack that belief while I search for evidence of a god. At the moment, I have not seen any, and have not been presented with any.

I’m an agnostic atheist.
Click to expand...
I have definitely answered several questioins from you at this point

so then how about truly (truth) answering my question?

So does any Atheist want to take this question on?

I have asked this question I feel over and aver again in one form or another.

I feel and maybe wrong that this question hits a nerve among you from the reactions of some on my insistence.

I would like to be from the onset on a level playing field in knowing what is to be considered evidence other than yourselves being personal eye witnesses.

see below

So lets get this straight .

I could be wrong?

You make a statement that there is there is no God?

You are asked other than Evidence of actualy having your own 5 senses personally affected by God or personally knowing in advance and witnessing a miracle by God you would accept.

You do not have to accept any other evidence and that is your right. “your rationalization”.

But I am sure you agree that brought to any trial / court of law your rationalization would let 99% of the guilty free and as such is not to be considered a lone form of evidence.

The challenge I do have is that when one makes a comment that there is no evidence on the existence of God as that is a false statement. There is credible evidence as is defined in the definition of evidence.

That unless one knows what additional forms of evidence is acceptable by you then discussion on the opposing view is fruitless and futile.
 
What?

I responded to this, and then linked you to the post where I responded.
 
Another Mary Poppins here… you think they just give that result to everybody?
 
phooney said:
That’s it! I can’t work the Dawkins argument into this. I give up on it for the time being 🙂
Click to expand...
Firp…sputter… 😛

Would you mind presenting the Dawkins argument with the example he used? Or if you know of a web page that discusses it, can I have a link? You’ve got my curiosity up, but I don’t know enough about the argument to google it myself. 🙂
 
Phooney – thanks for the replies about evolved morality. However, I am now in the same alcohol-related boat that you were in last night, so I couldn’t do more than skim 'em. I’ll add them to my “things to do” list. 🙂

By the way, that list includes:
  1. Extending my two-step chain of evidence for A (Jesus’s existence, Jesus was a moral teacher).
  2. Describing why the unique attributes of Yahweh make all the difference, when compared to other religions
  3. Painting three rooms in my house
  4. Realizing two or three different Internet startup concepts
Unfortunately, everything on that list seems to get perpetually pre-empted by “online vegetation”. :o

Well, to be fair (to myself), CS Lewis is taking up a good chunk of my time lately. I’m very much enjoying Mere Christianity during my first “overview” pass. It’s the kind of book that necessitates multiple passes, at least for the less philosophically inclined such as myself.
 
I had fun last night, and I hope you have fun tonight 🙂

I’ll try to post something relevant about Dawkins’ argument tomorrow.

Also, regarding evolutionary morality, keep in mind I think I still need to read about it more, including articles/books arguing against the position. I think it explains things pretty well though and matches with the evidence we have gathered, and makes some predictions. It’s looking good as far as I’m concerned!
 
phooney said:
I don’t know, I personally lack that belief while I search for evidence of a god. At the moment, I have not seen any, and have not been presented with any.

I’m an agnostic atheist.
Click to expand...
👍 Hilarious! So, does that make you a borderline agnostic or a borderline atheist? 🙂
 
phooney said:
@ Armor of God

So… you would require god to explain himself? To tell you, specifically, that the person was possessed by the devil? You wouldn’t just do it? What if he told you to do this only as clearly as he (presumably) speaks to you now? Would that be enough to kill? What methods would you utilise to ensure it was god speaking to you, if any?
Click to expand...
Phooney, it is really quite a stretch for me to imagine myself in this situation. It is very contrary to my beliefs and the teachings of Christ. It is also quite contrary to my relationship with God. But, I will try to take another stab at it (no pun intended!).

Firstly, I very honestly don’t believe that God would plant this thought in my head for me to ponder for weeks. In other words, I think it would be a very urgent situation involving the immediate endangerment of the souls of others. As I mentioned earlier, I believe it would involve an intense spiritual battle, culminating in a life or death situation. Those times when I am in the most spiritual agony are when I am closest to God. So, I believe I would just know what to do, by the power of the Holy Spirit. I also believe I would know Evil itself if it was looking me in the face.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top