I am an atheist thread 3

[c659smith]

Gladly, though I don’t think anybody here “believes” in Pascal’s Wager and for their own sake, if the Christian god really should exist, they do not believe in Him *because *of that wager.

This wager has several flaws. Firstly it neglects the possibility of the existence of other gods who might not be amused if one believes in the Christian god. Like Allah e.g. or some nice god like Odin. And some god might even let you into Paradise if you don’t believe in any god rather than in the wrong one, like Heimdall who doesn’t care at all what you believe.
Secondly it assumes you have no disadvantages if you believe and there is no god. Well, at least you have wasted half your life with praying and going to church, time you could have used better. Carpe diem.
Thirdly it assumes if there is a god there is an afterlife. There could be a god/creator of this universe but no afterlife. There could be an afterlife as a natural phenomenon but no god.
If that sounds too weird keep in mind that a statistical approach (which the wager claims to be) needs to consider all possibilities.

#1. I do not believe in God because of Pascal’s wager however if I was an Atheist I would look at the wager I have made should I be wrong in a belief that is a total no win situation.
Being an Atheist amounts to nothing other than Fossil fuel.

#2. I do not believe in any other God than God. There is only one God. I think you are totally clueless.

(a) Allah is the same God as the Christian God.
(b) The Jewish God is the same as the Christian God.

What these religions do not believe in is the Son of God (Jesus Christ) as the mesiah) as a matter of fact Islam holds Christ as a great prophet and Mary the Mother of God (Jesus Christ) as a very Holy person.

As far as wasted my Life going to church and praying? A statement like that is why I have the opinion I do of most Atheists.

Catholic social Teaching of the Church.

1. The life and dignity of the human person
2. The call to family, community, and paticipation
3. The are rights and responsibilities inherent to human beings
   4, Options for the poor and vulnerable
4. The dignity of work and rights of workers (solidarity)
5. Care for God’s creations.

These are the teachings of the Catholic Church as it pertains to social teachings so I do not feel it is a waste of time going to church but I guess you do feel these waste half your life.As a group at church and through the Church we perform these teachings.

As far as prayer that is something done not only for us but for others and the world such as a person like you that God may have pity on your soul.

The last part of your statement is a logical reason for Pascal’s Wager as it relates to your non beliefs your last 3 sentences used all the words and many more and with all these options if you are right well there is only one option if you are wrong. Is that hard to understand? A fact is a fact is a fact.

1, Assumes
2. Could be
3. Could be
4. Should I be
5, If

 

[Valke2]

but you cannot argue with the fact that jesus preannounced himself before he was ever born and fulfilled the over 350 foretellings in only less than 33 years. it is historical fact and does not have anything to do with religion on that level.

I can certainly argue that fact. I have argued that fact. And I will most likely continue to argue that fact. As would the majority of the world.

 

[Skavau]

c659smith:

#1. I do not believe in God because of Pascal’s wager however if I was an Atheist I would look at the wager I have made should I be wrong in a belief that is a total no win situation.

So you’re projecting. Again.

Belief is not about betting, or trying to get the best outcome. That is being selfish. Belief is a conclusion which one meets through specific interaction and experience with natural phenomena and learned knowledge. I cannot change my disbelief in God unless I actually get new evidence.

That is what Pascal’s blunderous wager actually fails to consider.

c659smith:

As far as wasted my Life going to church and praying? A statement like that is why I have the opinion I do of most Atheists

You should try and understand that Atheists are not selfish and disgusting heathens. After all, you’re the one who is advocating that one should believe on the basis of being selfish and looking out for number one.

 

[AnAtheist]

I think you are totally clueless.

I don’t agree with you, I’m a moron. A fool in my heart. Sure.

(a) Allah is the same God as the Christian God.

Christians still burn in hell if Islam is right. Are you willing to take that risk as we are talking about wagers right now?

 

[c659smith]

No.

An Atheist disbelieves in God. If it is claimed that it is reasonable to assert that God does exist (in favour of positive outcomes) then the Atheist would ask which God to follow? There is no reason for an Atheist to specifically choose Christianity over Islam or Islam over Christianity.

I don’t really care. Some random Atheist does not speak for me.

I am not that Atheist. Mine would be:

1. A God or God(s) (of whatever definition) exist.
2. No God’s exist.

So what? A lot of people from other belief systems have been persecuted for their beliefs.

Those two options is the challenge as it relates to why Pascal Wager relates to your frame of thinking the first gives you a cop out and the 2nd is what goes back to Pascals wager. Why is that hard to understand as it pertains to you?
You are making a statement and with that you understand that there is no salvation or afterlife as a result you definitely will not have one when the time comes. I am not suggesting you use Pascals Wager to beome a believer but to use it for your theory on Atheism.

Before one can evangelize one must believe.

Just answer this question with reason and logic.

If you believe there is no afterlife for you as you have no beliefs and all relilgions as they relate to God require a belief which they do. (Buddha is not a God) and for the most part this life is the only one you will have and then your next time you appear will be in someones gas tank.
Then why would you give your one and only life for someone or something because your theory is “thats all there is my friends”
Have you ever put your life and well being in someone else’s hands? total trust as that equals total friendship and total peace even in this life.

This life is not that important.

 

[c659smith]

I don’t agree with you, I’m a moron. A fool in my heart. Sure.

Christians still burn in hell if Islam is right. Are you willing to take that risk as we are talking about wagers right now?

Mohammed said that not Allah–you are wrong.

 

[Skavau]

c659smith:

Those two options is the challenge as it relates to why Pascal Wager relates to your frame of thinking the first gives you a cop out and the 2nd is what goes back to Pascals wager. Why is that hard to understand as it pertains to you?

Eh?

You’ve honestly lost me.

c659smith:

If you believe there is no afterlife for you as you have no beliefs and all relilgions as they relate to God require a belief which they do. (Buddha is not a God) and for the most part this life is the only one you will have and then your next time you appear will be in someones gas tank.
Then why would you give your one and only life for someone or something because your theory is “thats all there is my friends”

I don’t accept your definition of religion. But I will bite - I will live my life with sincerity. If I don’t believe in God (which I don’t) then that is my conclusion . I cannot sincerely believe in God unless I am actually convinced and I would like to think that I am truthful in my life.

c659smith:

This life is not that important.

That is your conviction - not mine.

 

[AnAtheist]

If you believe there is no afterlife for you

or others this one and only life we have is a very, very precious thing. Therefore I value my life and the life of others very much. Therefore I don’t throw mine away or end the one of others, not for me, not for an idea, not for a god.
Isn’t that hard to understand, is it?

 

[AnAtheist]

Mohammed said that not Allah–you are wrong.

“They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.” Sura 5:72

 

[c659smith]

“They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.” Sura 5:72

Read what was written

Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself)

Who is the Son of Mary? Jesus Christ

Message definitely not clear was written by Mohammed . The Koran around the year 600 well after the Christian church seperated as a sect from Judism

Mohammed appears to be directing this statement to the Jews

O Children of Israel, worship Allah,

The Jews definitely do not state the Son of Mary is the Messiah.

Yet the Jews do worship God as a single entity the same manner as Islam does.

What was written here is a lack of knowledge by Mohammed as we also believe in God as a single entity. 3 Persons/one God
the Holy Trinity (They are not partners) The Jews awaiting the Messiah and Islam no Messiah and no salvation but they have changed what they could as it relates to the Old Testament to match their claims.

Islam and the Koran definitely has some problems as I stated in earlier posts.

 

[c659smith]

or others this one and only life we have is a very, very precious thing. Therefore I value my life and the life of others very much. Therefore I don’t throw mine away or end the one of others, not for me, not for an idea, not for a god.
Isn’t that hard to understand, is it?

1. How about for freedom?
2. For Country
3. For another

Would you lay your life down for a friend ?

Why would you do that as you reap nothing as what you are left with is nothing?

I agree you would not cause a death of another on purpose for the sake of greed, aspiratiions, etc… that is a moral code. That is not what I am trying to say.

For an Atheist,

What I am saying is that your life is first and last.

There is no other life that matters as without your life, life has no meaning.

For once you are gone there is nothing.

Pascal’s Wager

 

[_A]

#1. I do not believe in God because of Pascal’s wager however if I was an Atheist I would look at the wager I have made should I be wrong in a belief that is a total no win situation.

I understand Pascal’s Wager as you present it, but my personal honesty is worth more to me than safety in the afterlife. I do not believe, saying that I did would be lying.
I won’t do that for you or your god.

Being an Atheist amounts to nothing other than Fossil fuel.

What does that mean?

#2. I do not believe in any other God than God. There is only one God. I think you are totally clueless.

There have been many gods, you believe only in your god, but others have believed in Krishna, Apollo and Zeus just as avidly.

As far as wasted my Life going to church and praying? A statement like that is why I have the opinion I do of most Atheists.

I just saw something.
From my perspective, which you find difficult to see, praying and doing all your kind works through the lens of your religion is a ‘waste’. You could do all those good things even better if you did not have to check with your bible to see if it was acceptable. On the other hand, perhaps you feel that, even if there is not a god, you have** not** wasted your life because the church itself is a beautiful and worthy accomplishment.
I do understand.
What you are missing is that, when the (imaginary to me) god is removed from the picture, much of what the church stands for is far from good.

 

[_A]

If you believe there is no afterlife for you as you have no beliefs and all relilgions as they relate to God require a belief which they do. (Buddha is not a God) and for the most part this life is the only one you will have and then your next time you appear will be in someones gas tank.
Then why would you give your one and only life for someone or something because your theory is “thats all there is my friends”

I would do it for family. I would risk my life for strangers in the right circumstances.
I don’t have any reason to think there is an afterlife.
If you need more proof of this, I can direct you to another forum that is just for atheists in the military and veterans.
Why do you think so many atheist DO risk their precious lives?

EDIT: spelling

 

[c659smith]

Yes I can.
I doubt the historical accuracy of all those events, as much as I doubt the historical fact that Apollo himself helped in erecting the walls of Troy.
And writing a story to fit to a set of prophecies in full knowledge of those prophecies is not such a difficult task.

It is not diffulcult then do me a favor make just 50 promises to accomplish yourself in your lifetime, never the less the majority in 3 years and fullfill them.

Again you are arguing over possibilities 350 fore tellings and I do not think there are enough stars in the universe that could match what the chance of that occurring. Probability = evidence

 

[c659smith]

I would do it for family. I would risk my life for strangers in the right circumstances.
I don’t have any reason to think there is an afterlife.
If you need more proof of this, I can direct you to another forum that is just for atheists in the military and veterans.
Why do you think so many atheist DO risk their precious lives?

EDIT: spelling

I disagree with you through personal experences in the military 22 years 1980 to 2002

I have never seen an atheist in the military when one has the possibility of entering or esspecially in combat. Some may be Atheist before of after Military operations but doubtful an Atheist would retain those non beliefs and risk it all . Does not compute and is not intelligent with atheists non beliefs unless they think they are coming back as a frog or something. For you must put your total trust and life in anothers hands. In combat I must know that you have my back and will risk everything for me and I for you.

I agree with you for family that you would lay your life down but I do not believe for freedom, Country, friend, or another (total stranger) not without a personal agenda.

Please give me the reason why an Atheist would and how that would be an intelligent decision on the part of the Atheist?

I know why some are soldiers of fortune, wanting a college education, or do it for something to do.

Again an atheist not Agnostic

 

[BlaineTog]

Why would you do that as you reap nothing as what you are left with is nothing?

The nihilist (as distinct from atheism, though the two are compatible) would say that you had nothing to begin with, so there’s really no difference.

An atheist response might be that all action is whim anyway, so you might give your life to save another on pure whim.

Another atheist response that I’ve heard before is that you need an ethical system to be happy, and if the ethical system you need to be happy demands that you give you life up, then you do it, because life just wouldn’t be worth it after.

And would you mind responding to me previous post? You may have missed it; it’s a page or two back, as I recall.

And @ A: Whether atheists would risk their lives or not isn’t particularly relevant. If they risk their life and make it out ok, their life will probably be much better after. The relevant question is why would an atheist give their life to save another.

 

[Skavau]

c659smith:

Please give me the reason why an Atheist would and how that would be an intelligent decision on the part of the Atheist?

In terms of self-gain it would not be. But not every Atheist is interested in self-gain. There is rationale for an Atheist beyond serving oneself.

 

[c659smith]

I understand Pascal’s Wager as you present it, but my personal honesty is worth more to me than safety in the afterlife. I do not believe, saying that I did would be lying.
I won’t do that for you or your god. What does that mean?There have been many gods, you believe only in your god, but others have believed in Krishna, Apollo and Zeus just as avidly.I just saw something.
From my perspective, which you find difficult to see, praying and doing all your kind works through the lens of your religion is a ‘waste’. You could do all those good things even better if you did not have to check with your bible to see if it was acceptable. On the other hand, perhaps you feel that, even if there is not a god, you have** not** wasted your life because the church itself is a beautiful and worthy accomplishment.
I do understand.
What you are missing is that, when the (imaginary to me) god is removed from the picture, much of what the church stands for is far from good.

You are getting there in understanding,

That anything that one may perceive as doing good without God is worthless as God is all that is good.

Giving all those good works without going to His glory is worthless on the part of the person doing it.
It may help society, the earth, and others but on the part of the person doing it there is an agenda and any agenda without God is
empty.

 

[c659smith]

In terms of self-gain it would not be. But not every Atheist is interested in self-gain. There is rationale for an Atheist beyond serving oneself.

and the million dollar question that rationale is?

 

[c659smith]

The nihilist (as distinct from atheism, though the two are compatible) would say that you had nothing to begin with, so there’s really no difference.

An atheist response might be that all action is whim anyway, so you might give your life to save another on pure whim.

Another atheist response that I’ve heard before is that you need an ethical system to be happy, and if the ethical system you need to be happy demands that you give you life up, then you do it, because life just wouldn’t be worth it after.

And would you mind responding to me previous post? You may have missed it; it’s a page or two back, as I recall.

And @ A: Whether atheists would risk their lives or not isn’t particularly relevant. If they risk their life and make it out ok, their life will probably be much better after. The relevant question is why would an atheist give their life to save another.

their life will probably be much better after.

After what there is no after for an atheists non beliefs.

If you are Catholic there is an after for them and you know what that is so how can you say better.