I am baffled, please explain

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I respect your feelings, but I don’t understand them. What happened between you and a friend happened and cannot be erased. What they do does not invalidate your feelings. If I loved someone, and he told me he wished he never existed, the love we shared, though in the past, would still exist in memory, as all past does. My feelings would not be invalidated.

As I said, I respect your feelings. We all feel differently about many things.
Oh no I wasn’t really stating a personal experience… Thank you for your concern though, I do appreciate it. It was more of a hypothetical, however. My thinking was that even if a person hates you, they are still there and you can still with effort repair the relationship. My point was that if they were to wish they never existed and then it happened, since they never existed, your relationship was never really a thing.

Assuming they just ceased to exist at that point, yes you would still have your memory of them. But that person would be speaking from a place of what I feel would be an extreme situational lack of awareness. Their wishing to not exist comes from a place of blindness to your own concern and love for them, and while your love has value from your perspective, the fact that they cannot see it means that to them, it is not present. Or if it is, it is vastly overshadowed by their own sense of worthlessness. It’s important to be there for them if this is the case in a real situation, but even so, that disregard for your concern and love does hurt, quite a lot.
 
Or you have experience that you falsely attribute to God. But even if it would be true, it is still personal, so it carries absolutely no weight. Not even the church requires that one should accept someone else’s personal “revelation”.

If only this nonsense would also disappear. Supposedly the people is biblical times interacted with God on a daily basis, and were able to freely disregard him. Being aware of God’s actual existence simply would enable us to make informed decisions.

Another bad argument. I experience my spouse’s love enough so I can trust it when we are not together.
*Being aware of God’s actual existence simply would enable us to make informed decisions. *

This could be a good discussion in a new thread! 👍
 
Did the Christian God create all with infallible foreknowledge and immutable preordination of all future events as is taught in the Catholic Encyclopedia?
 
I never heard of anyone who would KNOWINGLY refuse heaven and choose hell instead. Who would KNOWINGLY choose to be tortured forever. Give everyone a guided tour of heaven and hell, and then ask them: “which one will you choose”? Then tell them explicitly and in full detail what are the requirements of getting into heaven and what kind of actions will throw you into hell. Moreover a third option should be presented: “none of the above! I wish to stop existing.” Is that too much for an omnipotent God to perform?

Now that would be a fair and decent way to present the options.
Actually, there might exist a diverse set of options that you had never thought of, but which are very “live” possibilities for a 3-Omni God.

Here is a “for instance” possibility - but not one that I would necessarily suggest to be the only or correct one.

Based upon your suggestion that God could simply make human beings that always do the right or good thing and combining that with Kurisu’s point (below) we get one such “live” possibility that overcomes the presumed “injustice” of God, if Hell is supposedly disproportionate to the sin of the sinner.
My point was that if they were to wish they never existed and then it happened, since they never existed, your relationship was never really a thing.

Assuming they just ceased to exist at that point, yes you would still have your memory of them. But that person would be speaking from a place of what I feel would be an extreme situational lack of awareness. Their wishing to not exist comes from a place of blindness to your own concern and love for them, and while your love has value from your perspective, the fact that they cannot see it means that to them, it is not present. Or if it is, it is vastly overshadowed by their own sense of worthlessness. It’s important to be there for them if this is the case in a real situation, but even so, that disregard for your concern and love does hurt, quite a lot.
It seems to me that God would have a lot of ‘splainin’ to do and a lot of heartbreak to fix when the “good” arrive in Heaven and find their loved ones are in Hell.

Seems to me that a perfectly workable solution is to populate Heaven with all humans such that those humans always do the absolutely best thing possible in every instance. For the “good” that state would amount to perfect bliss; whereas for those who prefer to do evil such a place would be odious and extremely unpleasant. (Hell in fact.) Hell, as an experienced reality would be only as “hellish” as the agent’s penchant for evil and dislike of the good.

The reprobate would never rise above their own sordid subjectivity and remain trapped in their subjective hell. Those who could be rehabilitated would suffer some pangs (purgatory) but would eventually elevate their “taste” for the good to the point they would learn to enjoy the experience, while the saints would find the paradisal experience they have always sought. A completely just outcome, and it supports the contention that Hell is our choice with the bonus feature that all of your objections have been answered.

The upside is that the “good” (aka saints) would never know that their loved ones would find the existence hellish since God could “fix it” such that in every observable way, the “damned” would appear to be enjoying the experience as blissfully as the blessed are. No one would be the wiser, except those who prefer their own private hell to the extreme bliss that the true saints enjoy. Best of both worlds - Heaven for the saints, Hell for the pernicious, but the blessed would never realize or suspect all are not blissfully enjoying the experience in the way that they are.

Is this the way it will be? No idea, but it shows your three options are in no way exhaustive.

Again, the problem for those who would choose to not exist is that their loved ones would suffer pain at that prospect. The question now becomes: Why would someone choose not to exist if eternal bliss awaits them and their absence would be intolerable for those who love them? Just seems ungrateful in the extreme. Again, God could “fix” that by replacing their awareness of being with a remade perfect self for the benefit of those who love them, but allow the ungrateful “self” to cease to exist.
 
Of course not. If heaven would exist, it would be nice. But hell - a place of eternal torture - could be invented by an infinitely evil psychopath.
When I put that answer with #156 , I have just one last question. Were you ever baptised?
 
Did the Christian God create all with infallible foreknowledge and immutable preordination of all future events as is taught in the Catholic Encyclopedia?
The problem with this idea of “foreknowledge” is that it leaves out of accounting that God is the author of all that is to be known. It isn’t as if there is “something” out there that God comes to know, there is nothing besides what God creates by “knowing” it. He “knows” it into existence, so to speak.

His is not a passive or receptive mode of “knowing” things as we know things. Those things absolutely depend upon God in order to have the potential to be known in the first place. The problem is with reading what the Catholic Encyclopedia says with a particular set of lenses which distort what it says by entertaining secular presumptions about what the words used actually mean.

“Foreknowledge” doesn’t just mean that God knew about it before it happened as if reality has some autonomous existence apart from God (and that God, like us, can come to know,) but, rather, that God’s knowing it is what makes it occur. His “knowing” a thing logically - but not temporally - “precedes” the thing’s existence because God is eternal and not constrained by the stream of space-time. His knowledge is NOT foreknowledge in that sense of occurring prior to (in time) what happens.
 
The problem with this idea of “foreknowledge” is that it leaves out of accounting that God is the author of all that is to be known. It isn’t as if there is “something” out there that God comes to know, there is nothing besides what God creates by “knowing” it. He “knows” it into existence, so to speak.

His is not a passive or receptive mode of “knowing” things as we know things. Those things absolutely depend upon God in order to have the potential to be known in the first place. The problem is with reading what the Catholic Encyclopedia says with a particular set of lenses which distort what it says by entertaining secular presumptions about what the words used actually mean.

“Foreknowledge” doesn’t just mean that God knew about it before it happened as if reality has some autonomous existence apart from God (and that God, like us, can come to know,) but, rather, that God’s knowing it is what makes it occur. His “knowing” a thing logically - but not temporally - “precedes” the thing’s existence because God is eternal and not in the stream of space-time. His knowledge is NOT foreknowledge in that sense of occurring prior to (in time) what happens.
The men who assembled the encyclopedia were knowledgeable member of the Church who received all the appropriate seals of approval. I am confident that they knew what foreknowledge means. If the Christian God’s knowledge is what makes things occur, as you claim, then that God holds absolute responsibility for everything that occurs in this world and elsewhere.
Under such a system, there can be no free will.
 
Sure. His stuff is right here in this thread. There is one right above this, and you can follow the thread backwards. Yeah, 12 pages… but that cannot be helped.
I was hoping for something more helpful than “go look for yourself,” especially since you were referencing one particular argument of his… :rolleyes:
 
Did the Christian God create all with infallible foreknowledge and immutable preordination of all future events as is taught in the Catholic Encyclopedia?
God creates the universe, and is thereby in all time and space.
He has knowledge of all creation to its depths and heights.
As a transcendent being, He is outside of His creation in eternity.
For us there is such a thing as a future, because we create who we are within the passage of time.
We are time, and this existence in the moment with a past present and future is the the reality of our free-will.
There is no future, no past for God who is at the Centre of each moment in creation.
God is all powerful and all happens in accordance with His will.
We all are created out of His Love, and it is His will that we love.
We do have a choice in this.
The part we each play within this infinitely massive and complex event, is chosen by ourselves.
If one becomes love, if one gives of oneself, one will be in heaven which is a state of love.
If one does not, one will not be in heaven.
It is quite simple; choose to love or not.
 
God creates the universe, and is thereby in all time and space.
He has knowledge of all creation to its depths and heights.
As a transcendent being, He is outside of His creation in eternity.
For us there is such a thing as a future, because we create who we are within the passage of time.
We are time, and this existence in the moment with a past present and future is the the reality of our free-will.
There is no future, no past for God who is at the Centre of each moment in creation.
God is all powerful and all happens in accordance with His will.
We all are created out of His Love, and it is His will that we love.
We do have a choice in this.
The part we each play within this infinitely massive and complex event, is chosen by ourselves.
If one becomes love, if one gives of oneself, one will be in heaven which is a state of love.
If one does not, one will not be in heaven.
It is quite simple; choose to love or not.
So, he is both in and out of time at the same moment? If he is within time, which I tend to accept, then he is aware of the passage of time to humans. If all happens in accordance with his will, there can be no free will except for the deity. I was created to be a Deist, as you were created to be a Catholic.
Then we wait for our death to see what happens…sound about right?
 
The men who assembled the encyclopedia were knowledgeable member of the Church who received all the appropriate seals of approval. I am confident that they knew what foreknowledge means. If the Christian God’s knowledge is what makes things occur, as you claim, then that God holds absolute responsibility for everything that occurs in this world and elsewhere.
Under such a system, there can be no free will.
Well, that’s an assertion and not a very compelling one. Care to provide some support that God cannot create -or has zero tolerance for - autonomous and self-determining beings?

Is there some kind of inherent incoherency between God being omnipotent and other autonomous beings existing in his creation, as if omnipotence entails some kind of anal retentive control over all reality such that every event or change is directly micro-managed by God? It would seem to me that omnipotence could not be omnipotence without at least some tolerance for real and autonomous power being subsidiarily distributed.
 
The men who assembled the encyclopedia were knowledgeable member of the Church who received all the appropriate seals of approval. I am confident that they knew what foreknowledge means.
It isn’t their understanding of the word “foreknowledge” that I am questioning, it is the implications of the word that you add, as if those were implicit to its meaning or use vis a vis God.

Logically speaking, if God is eternal and has access to everything that occurs from an eternal (outside time) perspective, he would know “prior to” in a logical sense their occurring without the added entailment that he must, therefore be positioned “in time” to know in THAT sense of “before.” In other words, eternality encompasses knowledge from all perspectives without being constrained to any one of them.
 
Because we are not all rational all the time.
Why not?

One would think that after millenia of watching folks be irrational we would have figured it out by now.

But we haven’t.

Why haven’t we?

The atheistic position just doesn’t make sense.

The Christian one, however, does: we are not the people we were made to be. We are flawed because we’re missing that “genetic” piece of grace that went missing because 2 people squandered our inheritance.
Some people enjoy Adam Sandler films. They choose to watch them.
I know, right?

#incredulous
 
So, he is both in and out of time at the same moment? If he is within time, which I tend to accept, then he is aware of the passage of time to humans. If all happens in accordance with his will, there can be no free will except for the deity. I was created to be a Deist, as you were created to be a Catholic.
Then we wait for our death to see what happens…sound about right?
We are also in time and eternal,
albeit in a finite sense:
Always now, always changing
until we die,
to fall into that now of eternity and new life.

He is with us always, right here right now.
It is actually rather in bad taste to speak of Him in the third person.

Of course there is free will.
I am choosing to write all this for specific purposes:
  • to share with others a contemplation of the Supreme Mystery,
    and i suppose you may hear something that transforms your life.
Again, it’s all right here, now.
(Feel all time centred on this moment? When will you act?)
when it comes to our relationship with God.
 
If he would wish us to accept his “love”, then he should manifest this “love” so we could know about it.
I certainly do.

In fact, millions of folks do know about it. Billions, really.

You, interestingly enough, are in the extreme minority of folks who claim to not be able to see this love.
Manifest it in observable ways, so there can be no misunderstanding.
That’s exactly what God doesn’t want, PA. He doesn’t want you to be compelled to believe in Him.

Pascal says, “God gives us just enough light so that those who really want to find him can, but not so much light that those who don’t really want to find him don’t have to.”
 
That’s exactly what God doesn’t want, PA. He doesn’t want you to be compelled to believe in Him.
Then why, in the New Testament, is Jesus performing several miracles in an attempt to compel people?
 
The fact that he tried to prove himself and convince people with the miracles he performed.
The miracles compelled no one, SonOfMan.

Out of the thousands of folks who witnessed them, how many converted? A handful?

At any rate, he didn’t perform the miracles to convince people. He performed them because he was moved to pity.
 
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