I am baffled, please explain

[PumpkinCookie]

Yep.

I don’t see why He can’t.

It’s like asking: how could Henry Ford have knowledge of a motor engine when he isn’t actually a motor engine?

Answer: ummm…because he created it? I mean, that seems pretty obvious, no?

Hmmm, I don’t understand this analogy. I’m not sure that time itself is like a motor. Let’s try this:

Does God exist right now? If he does…then how can he not have a tense? “Now” is a term signifying a tense.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Would it make sense for Einstein to demand that the slug believe his theory of general relativity in order to be in the right relationship with him and go to slug heaven? Does that seem fair?

Well now, that appears to be a very one-sided view of what God is doing. I would suggest that it would be very irresponsible and, even, negligent of Einstein not to tell the slug that swimming in that pool of brine will do irreparable damage to its body and to its animating principle (soul). It isn’t that the slug needs to be in right relationship to Einstein, but it does need to be in right relationship to reality and to Einstein’s theory that underpins reality.

Now God is in a rather unique position vis a vis reality, since – unlike Einstein – God happens to be Reality in the absolute sense; he is the Ipsum Esse Subsistens of Reality which means being in right relationship to him is to be in right relationship to reality. Einstein, remember, is not the Creator and ground of Being, whereas God is.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Imagine (as some have suggested) that the universe and God are like two parallel lines. God is an infinite line that stretches in both directions forever. The universe is like a line segment of finite length. “Now” is an infinitesimally small point that is always moving forward along the line segment. However, if God exists at all points on the infinite line parallel to the line segment, how can he “cross” the space to the parallel line segment to know what is happening “now?”

Does only a little part of him cross the gap? Then how can he be infinitely simple? Does he entirely cross the gap? Then how can he be called timeless?

Your analogy is incorrect. God would be one point.

This one has issues as well, but consider a wheel; the rim would be creation or your individual life - the beginning meeting the end…
God is at the centre and He connects with the rim at every point through an infinite number of spokes by which He brings the rim (the world) into existence.
He (the axle) is outside time (the rim) and in every part of it (He and His loving relationship with the world is the wheel).
The gap is crossed by love, a giving of oneself to what is other.

God is simple as He is One, Three persons as one God, but no parts. Beauty, Goodness, Life and Truth are One - Love. We are talking about a transcendent Being, as far above us as we are to anything we fabricate. But He became one of us, so it is even better. . .

 

[Peter_Plato]

The verbatim quote is available at the link provided. Of course these days it is out of fashion. But words of Paul are still a scathing diatribe against reason in biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+1

Well, no, Paul’s diatribe is a “scathing diatribe” against the reason “of the age” or reasoning as it is practiced by the worldly “wise.” Paul even says so when he distinguishes between the “wisdom of this world” and the “wisdom of God.” That doesn’t add up to a diatribe against reason itself or against wisdom properly understood.

Of course, you wouldn’t want to understand or accept that distinction because you prefer to see things your way – a choice that you are making after all, you see.

 

[PRmerger]

Does God exist right now?

Yes.

If he does…then how can he not have a tense?

Why should he have a tense?

“Now” is a term signifying a tense.

Ok. I exist now. But I don’t “have a tense”.

Or are you saying that I am a tense?

If so, what tense am I?

And why have I never been defined as a tense?

PR-“I am pluperfect but you are imperfect”-merger

 

[Peter_Plato]

Does God know what you’re doing right now? What you’re doing right now has a “tense” if God does not have a “tense” how can he have knowledge of things that are taking place now (a tense). How can one who is without tense know about a thing which is tensed?

Imagine (as some have suggested) that the universe and God are like two parallel lines. God is an infinite line that stretches in both directions forever. The universe is like a line segment of finite length. “Now” is an infinitesimally small point that is always moving forward along the line segment. However, if God exists at all points on the infinite line parallel to the line segment, how can he “cross” the space to the parallel line segment to know what is happening “now?”

Does only a little part of him cross the gap? Then how can he be infinitely simple? Does he entirely cross the gap? Then how can he be called timeless?

Read Elenore Stump and Norman Kretzman’s paper on Eternity…

sites.google.com/site/stumpep/onlinepapers

 

[Peter_Plato]

Yes.

Why should he have a tense?

Ok. I exist now. But I don’t “have a tense”.

Or are you saying that I am a tense?

If so, what tense am I?

And why have I never been defined as a tense?

PR-“I am pluperfect but you are imperfect”-merger

PR, you seem a little tense. You should relax and have a sip of tea. It will calm you down. My mother would suggest a little brandy to calm your nerves.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Yes.

Why should he have a tense?

Ok. I exist now. But I don’t “have a tense”.

Or are you saying that I am a tense?

If so, what tense am I?

And why have I never been defined as a tense?

PR-“I am pluperfect but you are imperfect”-merger

It isn’t that you are a tense but that you exist within a tense. All of your actions can be described within a tense. I would argue that “timelessly” is a kind of tense even though we don’t have verb forms signifying “timelessness.”

Yes, you do have a tense. You exist in the present tense. You no longer exist in the past and do not exist yet in the future. You are indexed inextricably to time. At least…I think so. Perhaps time is an illusion or something.

If God exists now, he exists in the present tense. That means his existence is “tensed.” If not, why not?

 

[Peter_Plato]

Does God know what you’re doing right now? What you’re doing right now has a “tense” if God does not have a “tense” how can he have knowledge of things that are taking place now (a tense). How can one who is without tense know about a thing which is tensed?

Imagine (as some have suggested) that the universe and God are like two parallel lines. God is an infinite line that stretches in both directions forever. The universe is like a line segment of finite length. “Now” is an infinitesimally small point that is always moving forward along the line segment. However, if God exists at all points on the infinite line parallel to the line segment, how can he “cross” the space to the parallel line segment to know what is happening “now?”

Does only a little part of him cross the gap? Then how can he be infinitely simple? Does he entirely cross the gap? Then how can he be called timeless?

For this answer you need to read Elenore Stump’s paper on Eternity, Awareness and Action

0efcb99f-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/stumpep/EternityAwarenessAction.pdf?attachauth=ANoY7cptERxPwXHQBVPMax6cqlveEY9EgKwaKn-Tsbf76oncxuUFx5sTqWLk84IO1I410kTL_zj4fRq2T0S91MmeFVvSbWPE3MOOuriFN4FGADAfTljEEvbp4AyHiPCeKD8XD_XqJKkcjBvi1OjAlFgQOfdwk5O2H9XafkChJ3WtcbyqJUodovZ1q1XI0fccBizpSrGSLpAFHM6o7sQxpFCSaBUwDwBx_eqbVDn2aSkl5EJEMfgItQg%3D&attredirects=0
Especially pay attention to Part 9 - The Story of Aleph

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Read Elenore Stump and Norman Kretzman’s paper on Eternity…

sites.google.com/site/stumpep/onlinepapers

I have read that paper, and my analogy is drawn from theirs. I don’t agree with this analogy, I was just using it to demonstrate my question.

Also, regarding the slug, are you now saying the slug just has to avoid brine? That doesn’t seem too complicated. In fact, it seems like a slug would instinctively avoid salty things. Is knowledge of God’s laws instinctive and intelligible or complicated and esoteric like general relativity? I don’t understand…

 

[PRmerger]

PR, you seem a little tense. You should relax and have a sip of tea. It will calm you down. My mother would suggest a little brandy to calm your nerves.

How 'bout some champagne?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[PRmerger]

If God exists now, he exists in the present tense. That means his existence is “tensed.” If not, why not?

God exists in all tenses, no tenses, is supra-tensive, meta-tensive, omni-tensive.

 

[DCNBILL]

. Beginning----------------------------------------------------------------------End
. Time

. .
. God

God the Creator of time, “being outside of time,” can know all of time all the time for eternity.

 

[DCNBILL]

Beginning___________________________________________________End
Time

			    .
			God

God, being the creator of time is “outside of time” and has eternity to behold all of time all the time.

 

[Richca]

Did the Christian God create all with infallible foreknowledge and immutable preordination of all future events as is taught in the Catholic Encyclopedia?

This is true. But I think you understand it in a way catholics do not. Since God is omniscient, nothing can take place in the world He doesn’t know is going to take place. Neither can anything take place in the world without His will for God’s knowledge united with His will is the cause of things. Before God created the world, He had a plan for the world from start to finish and included in this plan are creatures such as humans who exercise free will and free choice. I think you understand “immutable preordination of all future events” as God predetermining humans exercise of free choice which of course would mean that humans free choice is not really a free choice after all. God does not predetermine humans free choice for them but He has infallible foreknowledge of them from all eternity and with this knowledge united with His will nothing takes place in creation which He does not will to take place either by actually doing it or willing to permit it to happen such as sins. God’s immutable plan for creation includes creatures such as humans who exercise free choice for this is the nature He created humans with but even our very exercise of free will cannot be done without God’s help and power. Creatures depend on God at every moment for their very existence and everything included or what flows from that existence such as all creaturely activity.

 

[tonyrey]

Do you blame God for having created all members of the human race?

Please answer the question.

So you believe we are omniscient? Rather presumptuous for minute creatures with limited insight, knowledge and intelligence on a tiny planet in an immense universe…

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

You are being discourteous!

We are talking about one of the attributes of God.

We are talking about **our understanding **of one of the attributes of God.

 

[oldcelt]

This is true. But I think you understand it in a way catholics do not. Since God is omniscient, nothing can take place in the world He doesn’t know is going to take place. Neither can anything take place in the world without His will for God’s knowledge united with His will is the cause of things. **Before God created the world, He had a plan for the world from start to finish and included in this plan are creatures such as humans who exercise free will and free choice. **I think you understand “immutable preordination of all future events” as God predetermining humans exercise of free choice which of course would mean that humans free choice is not really a free choice after all. **God does not predetermine humans free choice for them but He has infallible foreknowledge of them from all eternity and with this knowledge united with His will nothing takes place in creation which He does not will to take place either by actually doing it or willing to permit it to happen such as sins. **God’s immutable plan for creation includes creatures such as humans who exercise free choice for this is the nature He created humans with but even our very exercise of free will cannot be done without God’s help and power. Creatures depend on God at every moment for their very existence and everything included or what flows from that existence such as all creaturely activity.

So, the Christian God pre-planned creation with absolute foreknowledge, then created the world…already having full knowledge of everything that would happen…but, because he’s God he included free will.
There is the conundrum…nothing can be created with a pre-known life and still have free will. Even the encyclopedia ends the discussion with mystery.
It is no mystery…it is logically inconsistent, which even the omnipotent Christian God cannot do.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

LOL Okay! Understood. The OP and I are on very different pages.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I am always willing to explore hypothetical problems. Actually, I think that they are great tools to find out a lot about ourselves. So, let’s explore your stipulated scenario.

You created all those “beings” for the sole purpose that they would love you - freely and without being programmed to do it. No problems here. But your thought experiment is not “fleshed” out. There is this island, and there are those “beings”. All of a sudden a disaster strikes, for example a hurricane. What are you going to do? Will you come to their aid, and help them? Or will you stay behind the walls of your hypothetical dwelling, and observe their trials and tribulations without showing your love for them?

Why would you expect them to love you, if you are not willing to show your love to them? Love is not a give-and-take, a tit-for-tat, but if you just sit in your ivory castle, and do not offer the signs of YOUR love for them, then why would you expect them to love you?

Maybe you say: “I already showed my love, by creating you, and that is enough”. But it is not. Life, existence - in and of itself - is neither good nor bad. A good, pleasant, fun-filled life would be good, but a painful, misery-filled life is not good.

If he wants to be loved, then he should show his love for us, unmistakably and clearly. Since he does not, he does not deserve to be loved (Jesus and his unnecessary “self-sacrifice” notwithstanding).

Granted, it needs fleshing out. Quite a bit, actually, but I never know if anyone’s going to bother to read. LOL

They would love me no matter what because I created them to love always. Me and one another. However, there would be no disasters on my island. It would be a paradise always. People would not need help or become ill, etc. Even under those circumstances, I would not know if the people GENUINELY loved me or if they loved me simply because they were programmed to do so.

You seem familiar with the Bible, so I assume you are familiar with Romans 9:21-24: Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

If God created humans for his own glory, creating a race of humans who love him because he created them to be sinless and ONLY love would not glorify him. It would be logically incoherent. So God created humans in a way to show his love, his mercy, his kindness. If Christ’s salvific work did not exist, our relationship with God would be empty and sterile. Think how you would feel if your spouse only loved you because he or she could not do otherwise, i.e. you somehow “programmed” him or her to love. That is not real love.

 

[DCNBILL]

So, the Christian God pre-planned creation with absolute foreknowledge, then created the world…already having full knowledge of everything that would happen…but, because he’s God he included free will.
There is the conundrum…nothing can be created with a pre-known life and still have free will. Even the encyclopedia ends the discussion with mystery.
It is no mystery…it is logically inconsistent, which even the omnipotent Christian God cannot do.

In your expert opinion.

God, however did it. Knowledge of something does not necessarily, mean cause.

I could be in a helicopter above a blind intersection and see two cars racing toward that intersection and they are going to crash. Is it my fault, when they do crash, since I knew that it was going to happen? You are confusing knowledge with causation.