I am baffled, please explain

[PRmerger]

My mistake…same answer…there are numerous models of reality and even one that claims we are in a perpetual dream state. All interesting…not observable, but interesting.

So is it your position that the linear model is or isn’t the only model of reality?

 

[oldcelt]

If it is an insult, it is not insulting enough, to paraphrase Peter Kreeft.

Comparing us to 5 yr olds is finite.

But comparing adults to God is infinite.

So, if anything, the analogy doesn’t demonstrate how utterly miniscule our understanding of reality is, compared to God.

He believes…I would bet that he does not footnote that statement unless he borrowed it. We have no way of knowing what God thinks or understands…God is unobservable.

 

[oldcelt]

So is it your position that the linear model is or isn’t the only model of reality?

It is the most widely accepted, and the one that can be observed. So, yes, I accept it.
What does this really have to do with predestination, infallible foreknowledge, immutable preordination, or anything else related to the OP?

 

[PRmerger]

He believes…I would bet that he does not footnote that statement unless he borrowed it. We have no way of knowing what God thinks or understands…God is unobservable.

What evidence do you have that we must “observe” something in order to know what God thinks.

Can you observe me? Really? What am I wearing right now? What am I doing?

You don’t know?

Yet, clearly, you know what I think: God loves. God is not responsible for your sins. God is intimately involved in our lives.

QED.

 

[PRmerger]

It is the most widely accepted, and the one that can be observed. So, yes, I accept it.

But is it the only true model of reality?

 

[oldcelt]

But is it the only true model of reality?

See post 402.

 

[PRmerger]

See post 402.

Then you may want to retract your statement below, as it contradicts post #402.

I am thinking in a linear manner, because that is the observable world…that is reality. Extrapolating the abstract is an interesting mental exercise, but of little use without a final, tangible proof.

 

[oldcelt]

What evidence do you have that we must “observe” something in order to know what God thinks.

Can you observe me? Really? What am I wearing right now? What am I doing?

You don’t know?

Yet, clearly, you know what I think: God loves. God is not responsible for your sins. God is intimately involved in our lives.

QED.

I know what you think because mankind invented a method of instant communication…a form of observation. Yes, I know what you think…I used to think it for nearly 50 linear years. Then, in the process of trying to strengthen my fate I began to see inconsistencies. Under your model, God must have wanted me to do that, since he is so intimately involved in our lives.

 

[oldcelt]

Then you may want to retract your statement below, as it contradicts post #402.

My acceptance of the linear model does not contradict that there are other possibilities. I am not so dogmatic that sound, observable evidence will not sway me. If Hawking, or one of the others who ponders reality on a consistent basis comes up with something convincing…who knows?

 

[DCNBILL]

Deism holds that it is likely that no one is, or has been watching. We are not direct creations of God, but a result of that creation. Our actions are unknown until they occur…that is true free will. If God already knows what I am going to think or do at any given moment from the moment of my creation, by that God, then that is fate, not free will.
The rest of what you offer is Catholic doctrine, and that’s fine, but I think that some more observable evidence would be nice. So far as continuing creation, Deists and Catholics agree with science.

I would propose that Jesus would have something to say about this.:bible1:

 

[oldcelt]

I would propose that Jesus would have something to say about this.:bible1:

Most definitely.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Deism holds that it is likely that no one is, or has been watching. We are not direct creations of God, but a result of that creation. Our actions are unknown until they occur…that is true free will. If God already knows what I am going to think or do at any given moment from the moment of my creation, by that God, then that is fate, not free will.

Doesn’t follow. God knowing what you will do at any particular moment does not entail that what you do isn’t completely according to your freely chosen will. In fact, God could completely underwrite your choices by giving you the capacity (everything you require) to carry them out, but it would still be you that are responsible for doing them.

Now God may be accountable for not stopping you or for not preventing you from carrying out those actions, but THAT still does not amount to being accountable for you doing them; nor does it amount to fate. If God has warrant for permitting your actions because of reasons you may not fully comprehend, it means permitting you to do as you will may, in the end, be justifiable as far as he is concerned, although it doesn’t mean you are off the hook for your chosen actions.

 

[oldcelt]

Doesn’t follow. God knowing what you will do at any particular moment does not entail that what you do isn’t completely according to your freely chosen will. In fact, God could completely underwrite your choices by giving you the capacity (everything you require) to carry them out, but it would still be you that are responsible for doing them.

Now God may be accountable for not stopping you or for not preventing you from carrying out those actions, but THAT still does not amount to being accountable for you doing them; nor does it amount to fate. If God has warrant for permitting your actions because of reasons you may not fully comprehend, it means permitting you to do as you will may, in the end, be justifiable as far as he is concerned, although it doesn’t mean you are off the hook for your chosen actions.

Sorry Peter…if am omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, benevolent, infallible deity chooses to create an individual that he knows will do harm…that translates to absolute responsibility. The standard retort that “you just don’t understand” has no place in that equation. It is not a mystery…it is obvious.
I understand this simple exercise in logic quite well.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . deity chooses to create an individual that he knows will do harm…that translates to absolute responsibility. . .

We’ve been through this so many times.
This is a thread on bafflement.
I am truly amazed that concepts so simple cannot be apprehended.
It appears that outside a relationship with God, it is impossible to know Him.
Which would make sense.

Christians understand God as creating us with free choice
Once created, we choose.
Once created, it cannot be undone.
God knows before we are born what we will do because he is here and there.
What we do is what we do.
His knowing before or at the time changes nothing of the fact that we have done it.

 

[oldcelt]

We’ve been through this so many times.
This is a thread on bafflement.
I am truly amazed that concepts so simple cannot be apprehended.
It appears that outside a relationship with God, it is impossible to know Him.
Which would make sense.

Christians understand God as creating us with free choice
Once created, we choose.
Once created, it cannot be undone.
God knows before we are born what we will do because he is here and there.
What we do is what we do.
His knowing before or at the time changes nothing of the fact that we have done it.

I respect you beliefs…though I share your bafflement.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Well, I do not “get it” at all. If I make a chair and ship it to a friend and that friend lets me know everything that happens to that chair until it goes up in flames in a fire, did I cause that fire?

OK no problem DCNBILL I will try to help. I have to modify your analogy because I don’t think it quite describes what is happening.

If you have always and will always know that if you make a particular chair it will be burned and useless, and you choose to make that particular chair and ship it to your friend, then yes, you are responsible for the chair burning. No you did not cause the fire, but you are responsible for it since you knew it would happen and had the ability to prevent it by not creating the chair in the first place. Does that help?

No one is accusing the Christian trinity of causing our choices, but of having always known their outcomes and causing us.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

We’ve been through this so many times.
This is a thread on bafflement.
I am truly amazed that concepts so simple cannot be apprehended.
It appears that outside a relationship with God, it is impossible to know Him.
Which would make sense.

Christians understand God as creating us with free choice
Once created, we choose.
Once created, it cannot be undone.
God knows before we are born what we will do because he is here and there.
What we do is what we do.
His knowing before or at the time changes nothing of the fact that we have done it.

Obviously I don’t share your belief that God cannot undo what he has already done since God can do anything.

I do agree with the rest. Outside of a personal relationship, it is impossible to know God, and even in a personal relationship with him it is difficult because our knowledge is limited.

God’s foreknowledge does not render our free will null.

I have a sister who married a man so rich (she’s a widow now) she could easily lend me $1,000,000 and not miss it. I know, without a doubt, that she wouldn’t even loan me $1,000 because she’s always been very selfish. She’d let anyone starve before she’d buy them a meal. She didn’t even contribute for her own mother’s headstone. Anyway, my knowing she would never lend me, or anyone else, a penny does not interfere in any way with her free will to do so. (Obviously, she gave up church and the concept of “Christian charity” a long time ago. I love her, though. She is my flesh and blood and I remember the times before she became so selfish.)

 

[Lily_Bernans]

OK no problem DCNBILL I will try to help. I have to modify your analogy because I don’t think it quite describes what is happening.

If you have always and will always know that if you make a particular chair it will be burned and useless, and you choose to make that particular chair and ship it to your friend, then yes, you are responsible for the chair burning. No you did not cause the fire, but you are responsible for it since you knew it would happened and had the ability to prevent it by not creating the chair in the first place. Does that help?

No one is accusing the Christian trinity of causing our choices, but of having always known their outcomes and causing us.

The problem with your analogy is that the fire was the chair’s *final *fate. Nothing of it could be saved afterward. We do *not know *our final fate. We do not really know why things happen as they do and when they do because we have limited knowledge. If you know your own final, eternal fate, then please share with those of us whom God has not chosen to enlighten with such omniscience.

God, however, does know our final, eternal fate, and perhaps it’s better than we could ever imagine. Trust plays a part in every human relationship. Why shouldn’t it play a part in our relationship with God?

 

[DCNBILL]

OK no problem DCNBILL I will try to help. I have to modify your analogy because I don’t think it quite describes what is happening.

If you have always and will always know that if you make a particular chair it will be burned and useless, and you choose to make that particular chair and ship it to your friend, then yes, you are responsible for the chair burning. No you did not cause the fire, but you are responsible for it since you knew it would happen and had the ability to prevent it by not creating the chair in the first place. Does that help?

No one is accusing the Christian trinity of causing our choices, but of having always known their outcomes and causing us.

Not really helpful at all, I do not care in the least what the chairs end is, only that it serves my friends needs up to whatever end that may come of it. It is just a chair and it did make its own chair decisions, and that is why it ended up as it did in the end even if I knew what that end was going to be.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

I used to be a Roman Catholic not so long ago, and it was after years of prayer, scripture study, and many discussions with theologians, priests, and rabbis that I was finally able to walk away. I remember when (a version of) this problem first occurred to me: it was the feast of the immaculate conception 6 years ago. Sitting at mass, I thought:

“Wait…if God could make Mary such that she would never commit a sin by virtue of a “singular grace” bestowed upon her due to his foreknowledge of Jesus’s sacrificial act, then why couldn’t he have done it for all of humanity?”

In my opinion, the doctrine of the immaculate conception presupposes and relies upon the very concept of foreknowledge that some dispute on this thread. This little question blossomed into so many more and lead me on a journey toward the true God, who is one, who does not have a body, who cannot be born and cannot die, and who is absolutely sovereign. I have always had intense doubts about the truth of Roman Catholicism, even from when I was a young child. The “still small voice” always said to me…“this isn’t the truth.” but I ignored it. I repent of this! I contorted and brutalized my conscience because I was afraid that leaving the RCC would cause me to be tortured forever and forever by God. I am ashamed of my cowardice, but the threat of eternal torture is so immense. Nonetheless, I repent of this too!

I am so much happier now. And, it is all thanks to this problem. For years I prayed desperately “God, please show me the truth! Please teach me!” and He finally answered me by confronting me with this. I can understand, however, that many do not have an understanding of this issue. It is buried deep. I do not think God punishes those who cannot understand, but I wish that some would at least try. Maybe God is calling all of us to a deeper reflection upon this? Maybe these threads will serve some good by helping those who read but choose not to comment. I hope so!

It seems so obvious and straightforward to me now, but I remember the haze and confusion of my beliefs when I was a Roman Catholic. I remember being OK with flat contradictions because Chesterton assured me that paradoxes are the mark of truth or something like that. I remember ignoring and fearing the contradictions because they were a “temptation.”

Some light may pour through the Church’s windows, but the source of that light is outside, I believe. May God help each of us to learn.