I am baffled, please explain

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oldcelt said:
But, if he knows these things from all eternity and still creates you, he holds ultimate responsibility.

John
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Why? We’re not inanimate objects like ashtrays that were created. We’re thinking beings. We know the score. Unrepentant sin = hell; acceptance of Christ and Christian living = heaven.

Someone actually compared me to ISIS because I believe the official flag of the US should be flown over all public buildings, public parks, etc. I never said the confederate flag shouldn’t be displayed privately or the confederacy should be wiped from history books. Is God responsible for that poster’s hate speech directed toward me? I don’t think so. I think the poster alone is responsible. I don’t think Jesus would have compared me to ISIS based on flag preference. The poster also had the free will to behave in a decent and Christian manner in disagreeing. He or she chose hate speech of his or her own free will.
 
PRmerger said:
No.

No more than he is responsible for you typing the above.

Everything for God is in the Eternal Now.
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The Eternal Now…is incompatible with omniscience. It makes the Christian God sound as if he is watching a news cast. It cannot be both ways…either he is in the eternal now, or he knows everything from all eternity and interacts with creatures bound by linear time.
 
Lily_Bernans said:
Why? We’re not inanimate objects like ashtrays that were created. We’re thinking beings. We know the score. Unrepentant sin = hell; acceptance of Christ and Christian living = heaven.
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Why? Because he knew from the moment of creation exactly what you, or anyone else would choose…and still created them. He even knew that Christ would be sent here before he created. That is what omniscience is.
 
oldcelt said:
Why? Because he knew from the moment of creation exactly what you, or anyone else would choose…and still created them. He even knew that Christ would be sent here before he created. That is what omniscience is.
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Omniscience does not rule out free will. And, because he’s omniscient, he knows how all of this is going to play out. We do not, which leaves us in no position to assign responsibility to God based on his foreknowledge.
 
Lily_Bernans said:
Omniscience does not rule out free will. And, because he’s omniscient, he knows how all of this is going to play out. We do not, which leaves us in no position to assign responsibility to God based on his foreknowledge.
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He foreknew…he created still…the creation is causation under infallible foreknowledge. Any court in the land would find you or me culpable. Are deities held to a lesser standard?
 
oldcelt said:
The Eternal Now…is incompatible with omniscience. It makes the Christian God sound as if he is watching a news cast. It cannot be both ways…either he is in the eternal now, or he knows everything from all eternity and interacts with creatures bound by linear time.
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You say this because you think too linearly and cannot extrapolate to the abstract.

It reminds me of a conversation between 2 5 year olds:

“It’s just not possible for a needle that squirts some liquid into my leg to be able to keep me from getting sick.”

“I know, right!”

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oldcelt said:
He foreknew…he created still…the creation is causation under infallible foreknowledge. Any court in the land would find you or me culpable. Are deities held to a lesser standard?
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God is held to no standard. He is also omnipotent. He is the rule maker.

We can’t judge an unknown outcome, and that’s what you’re trying to do.
 
Lily_Bernans said:
God is held to no standard. He is also omnipotent. He is the rule maker.

We can’t judge an unknown outcome, and that’s what you’re trying to do.
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I was born sentient and capable of observation, deduction and logic. That is what I am presenting…not the musings of other philosophers.

Remember, I do not believe in fate, or a known outcome. I am merely pointing out the flaws in the logic of the notion of foreknowledge/creation/predestination and an all loving God.
 
PRmerger said:
You say this because you think too linearly and cannot extrapolate to the abstract.

It reminds me of a conversation between 2 5 year olds:

“It’s just not possible for a needle that squirts some liquid into my leg to be able to keep me from getting sick.”

“I know, right!”

http://media4.giphy.com/media/yoJC2H8tqwzZVEvE9a/giphy.gif
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I am thinking in a linear manner, because that is the observable world…that is reality. Extrapolating the abstract is an interesting mental exercise, but of little use without a final, tangible proof.
 
oldcelt said:
The Eternal Now…is incompatible with omniscience. It makes the Christian God sound as if he is watching a news cast. It cannot be both ways…either he is in the eternal now, or he knows everything from all eternity and interacts with creatures bound by linear time.
Click to expand...
Perhaps our “now” is a mere glimpse into the Eternal Now - a kind of portal into eternity. Ergo, God is the Eternal Now and our now exists only because we participate in the Eternal Now to a very tiny degree. It isn’t as if God is watching a newscast, but that the newscast is only possible because of the signal broadcast from eternity that actualizes and makes real the broadcast.
 
oldcelt said:
The Eternal Now…is incompatible with omniscience. It makes the Christian God sound as if he is watching a news cast. It cannot be both ways…either he is in the eternal now, or he knows everything from all eternity and interacts with creatures bound by linear time.
Click to expand...
Eternal Now
encompasses all and
is within each moment of creation.

Nothing is being watched - that is Deism.
God creates and participates in our lives.

In recent first readings, we have been hearing about Abraham.
God tells Hagar that she is pregnant with Abram’s son Ishmael and that her descendants through him will be numerous, too many to count.
He sees all that is within eternity, including the choices we all will make, and speaks to her to assuage her anguish and assists her in finding a well so that they might not perish.

:twocents:

Here’s a site that illustrates the scale of the universe: htwins.net/scale2/
From the very smallest 10^35 m, Planck Length, to the largest 10^27m, observable universe, it all exists.
It all is, coming into being over 13 billion and growing years.
Within this, here we are, billions of unique and irreplaceable beings, with the capacity to communicate, understand (more-or-less), to love.

He is the Source of all this wonder.
He is Goodness, Truth and Life.

We creatures have the opportunity to participate in His love.

Is He responsible for the harm we do to one another?
I give you fire to warm yourself, cook your food and produce artifacts, and you use it to kill your neighbour; I suppose I should let all freeze to prevent this.

In the realm of eternal joy, we have a choice to accept or deny His blessings.
We do so through our choices, our actions.
Some choose hell,
  • Should they never have existed? Who is to say?
  • Should there be no possibility of an encounter with God by humanity because some of us choose otherwise?
 
oldcelt said:
I am thinking in a linear manner, because that is the observable world…that is reality.
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Do you have any evidence that linear models are the only models of reality?
Extrapolating the abstract is an interesting mental exercise, but of little use without a final, tangible proof.
Click to expand...
Similar paradigm to the 5 yr old who doesn’t want to get his kindergarten shots. He utterly dismisses the idea that it’s for his health because “no liquid squirted into my body by a needle could make me not get sick.”
 
Aloysium said:
Eternal Now
encompasses all and
is within each moment of creation.

Nothing is being watched - that is Deism.
God creates and participates in our lives.

In recent first readings, we have been hearing about Abraham.
God tells Hagar that she is pregnant with Abram’s son Ishmael and that her descendants through him will be numerous, too many to count.
He sees all that is within eternity, including the choices we all will make, and speaks to her to assuage her anguish and assists her in finding a well so that they might not perish.

:twocents:

Here’s a site that illustrates the scale of the universe: htwins.net/scale2/
From the very smallest 10^35 m, Planck Length, to the largest 10^27m, observable universe, it all exists.
It all is, coming into being over 13 billion and growing years.
Within this, here we are, billions of unique and irreplaceable beings, with the capacity to communicate, understand (more-or-less), to love.

He is the Source of all this wonder.
He is Goodness, Truth and Life.

We creatures have the opportunity to participate in His love.

Is He responsible for the harm we do to one another?
I give you fire to warm yourself, cook your food and produce artifacts, and you use it to kill your neighbour; I suppose I should let all freeze to prevent this.

In the realm of eternal joy, we have a choice to accept or deny His blessings.
We do so through our choices, our actions.
Some choose hell,
  • Should they never have existed? Who is to say?
  • Should there be no possibility of an encounter with God by humanity because some of us choose otherwise?
Click to expand...
Deism holds that it is likely that no one is, or has been watching. We are not direct creations of God, but a result of that creation. Our actions are unknown until they occur…that is true free will. If God already knows what I am going to think or do at any given moment from the moment of my creation, by that God, then that is fate, not free will.
The rest of what you offer is Catholic doctrine, and that’s fine, but I think that some more observable evidence would be nice. So far as continuing creation, Deists and Catholics agree with science.
 
PRmerger said:
Do you have any evidence that linear models are the only models of reality?

Similar paradigm to the 5 yr old who doesn’t want to get his kindergarten shots. He utterly dismisses the idea that it’s for his health because “no liquid squirted into my body by a needle could make me not get sick.”
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There are numerous models of time. The observable one is linear for now. Perhaps, one day we may be able to observe folds in time…but not yet. Your writings on the 5 year olds seem to be either irrelevant or a veiled insult.
 
oldcelt said:
There are numerous models of time. The observable one is linear for now. Perhaps, one day we may be able to observe folds in time…but not yet. Your writings on the 5 year olds seem to be either irrelevant or a veiled insult.
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If it is an insult, it is not insulting enough, to paraphrase Peter Kreeft.

Comparing us to 5 yr olds is finite.

But comparing adults to God is infinite.

So, if anything, the analogy doesn’t demonstrate how utterly miniscule our understanding of reality is, compared to God.
 
PRmerger said:
No. I didn’t ask for models of time.

I asked for evidence for models of REALITY that limns that the linear model is the only model.
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My mistake…same answer…there are numerous models of reality and even one that claims we are in a perpetual dream state. All interesting…not observable, but interesting.
 
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